Woke up at a friend's place in Wallington, near Croydon and far from the Pays du PAYG. Wanted to go home to god's own Finsbury Park, then visit a convalescing friend in Watford and then come home again. So, bought a Z1-9 travelcard.
I happily used to the ticket to take the Southern to Victoria, the Vic to FP and back to Euston, and London Midland to Watford Junction - where the ticket machine ate my travelcard. I asked a member of staff, who i think was some sort of ticket inspector, and he asserted that this was right and proper - apparently outside Z6, a travelcard is good for one trip inward and one out. So it is not, as the name might suggest to the naive, a travelcard.
Travel as much as you like in one day using a Day Travelcard
And doesn't go on to qualify that with regards to Watford.
So, what gives? Where's the rule that says Watford gets to eat my ticket? Where else am i at risk from surprise cartivory?
I assume what's happening is that a Z1-9 travelcard is actually a return from BZ9 to Z1-6, much as you might buy a return from Chelmsford to Z1-6, and as such, is only valid for a trip in from Z9 followed by a trip out, as the fellow i spoke to indicated. In which case, it's a perfectly consistent and legit product, but *is not a bloody travelcard*.
I imagine there have been threads about this here before, and i probably should have paid attention. But i didn't. So, what are my chances of getting Trading Standards to shut down the Z1-9 TC scam?
tom
-- Glass of water, glass of orange juice, cup of coffee, a spell on the toilet (Guinness hangovers only), back to bed for a good cry. Fried breakfast later. -- susumu, on curing hangovers
t...@urchin.earth.li (Tom Anderson) wrote: > When it's to zone 9.
> Woke up at a friend's place in Wallington, near Croydon and far > from the Pays du PAYG. Wanted to go home to god's own Finsbury > Park, then visit a convalescing friend in Watford and then come > home again. So, bought a Z1-9 travelcard.
> I happily used to the ticket to take the Southern to Victoria, the > Vic to FP and back to Euston, and London Midland to Watford > Junction - where the ticket machine ate my travelcard. I asked a > member of staff, who i think was some sort of ticket inspector, and > he asserted that this was right and proper - apparently outside Z6, > a travelcard is good for one trip inward and one out. So it is not, > as the name might suggest to the naive, a travelcard.
> Travel as much as you like in one day using a Day Travelcard
> And doesn't go on to qualify that with regards to Watford.
> So, what gives? Where's the rule that says Watford gets to eat my > ticket? Where else am i at risk from surprise cartivory?
> I assume what's happening is that a Z1-9 travelcard is actually a > return from BZ9 to Z1-6, much as you might buy a return from > Chelmsford to Z1-6, and as such, is only valid for a trip in from > Z9 followed by a trip out, as the fellow i spoke to indicated. In > which case, it's a perfectly consistent and legit product, but *is > not a bloody travelcard*.
> I imagine there have been threads about this here before, and i > probably should have paid attention. But i didn't. So, what are my > chances of getting Trading Standards to shut down the Z1-9 TC scam?
Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9? I thought it comprised just Chesham and Amersham.
>> Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9? I thought it comprised just Chesham >> and Amersham.
> Correct, nearly. Watford Junction is just outside Zone 8, because in that > area there is no Zone 9.
Huh. So should i actually have been excessed or something?
The chap at Wallington seemed to think a Z1-9 TC was the thing i wanted; i suppose it's no great surprise that he wasn't immediately familiar with the ins and outs of the rules.
> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600, rosenst...@cix.compulink.co.uk > wrote:
>>Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?
> It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction > outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.
> Neil
But outboundary travelcards should never be issued from within the zones, and I wasn't previously aware that National Rail stations could issue Z1-9 either.
In article <4af74a9f.1213205...@news.individual.net>,
wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote: > On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600, rosenst...@cix.compulink.co.uk > wrote:
> >Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?
> It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction > outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.
Would Croydon (or wherever, I see he wasn't too specific) have sold him a Watford Junction outboundary Travelcard, though? And wouldn't it be valid for a return trip to the zones if so?
> > On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600, rosenst...@cix.compulink.co.uk > > wrote:
> >>Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?
> > It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction > > outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.
> But outboundary travelcards should never be issued from within the > zones, and I wasn't previously aware that National Rail stations > could issue Z1-9 either.
Neil Williams <wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk> wrote: > PFed, I guess, if a 1-9 ODTC is indeed what you had., as such a thing > isn't valid to Watford Junction.
But the gate should have just said 'Seek assistance' in that case? It wouldn't have eaten the ticket.
David Jackman wrote: > But outboundary travelcards should never be issued from within the zones, > and I wasn't previously aware that National Rail stations could issue Z1-9 > either.
The extremities of the Metropolitan Line are a special case when it comes to the "out-boundary" rule, in that National Rail ticket offices *can* issue a Travelcard for them (Amersham to All Zones being the usual scenario) *and* they don't turn into a pumpkin when you reach Amersham.
It also appears that the rules regarding other out-boundary Travelcards have now been updated in "The Manual" and it now explicitly states that, whilst not valid for another journey back to/from London after you return to the origin point, they *do* retain the Travelcard validity within Zones 1 to 6.
> In article <4af74a9f.1213205...@news.individual.net>, > wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600, rosenst...@cix.compulink.co.uk >> wrote:
>> >Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?
>> It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction >> outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.
> Would Croydon (or wherever, I see he wasn't too specific) have sold him a > Watford Junction outboundary Travelcard, though? And wouldn't it be valid > for a return trip to the zones if so?
I expect they could if asked, but the ticket would still not be valid after the first trip to Watford Jn. By analogy, as you are probabaly aware, the outward part of a two part ticket is not valid without the return...
>> > Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9? I thought it comprised just >> > Chesham and Amersham.
>> Correct, nearly. Watford Junction is just outside Zone 8, because >> in that area there is no Zone 9.
> So the OP's ticket was not valid for a journey to Watford Junction then?
AIUI from many previous discussions, you can apparently buy a normal outboundary travelcard from Watford Junction TO zones 1-6, (not sure on zones 1-9), but the leg from Watford Junction to 'the zones', although short, is just like the leg from say Cambridge to the zones. So with an out boundary travelcard from WJ you'd have your normal one jouney in and one return, and if you started from within the zones with a normal Z1-6 travelcard you'd need an extension from BZ6 to WJ.
No idea if there even is such a thing as an extension from BZ8 - Watford Junction though....
By the way - for those still wondering, have a look at the text in the orange box next to WJ on the standard tube map - you can see why people might expect it to be in Zone 9 though...
> <rosenst...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote in message > news:S4mdnaPYXttAzmrXnZ2dnUVZ8gKdnZ2d@giganews.com... >> Would Croydon (or wherever, I see he wasn't too specific) have sold him a >> Watford Junction outboundary Travelcard, though? And wouldn't it be valid >> for a return trip to the zones if so?
> I expect they could if asked, but the ticket would still not be valid > after the first trip to Watford Jn. By analogy, as you are probabaly > aware, the outward part of a two part ticket is not valid without the > return...
In the light of Barry's info, I'd clarify that by saying they are no longer valid on the NR part of the route once they have been used to return to the origin. As the barriers will have normally eaten it, using the zonal validity again in the same day will require the user to avoid the barriers.
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, Neil Williams wrote: > On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600, rosenst...@cix.compulink.co.uk > wrote:
>> Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?
> It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction > outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.
I've checked by bank statement, and i paid 13.80 for the thing, at Wallington, on a late monday morning IIRC. The only thing i can see in the booklet is the off-peak Z1-9TC+WJ ticket, which is 13.50, so i think you're right, although i don't know where the 30p comes from.
And i note there's still nothing in the TfL fares booklet which indicates that that ticket will be eaten at WJ.
tom
-- History is about battles, great men, gory executions and wigs. That is all. -- The Richelieu Association
On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Barry Salter wrote: > David Jackman wrote:
>> But outboundary travelcards should never be issued from within the zones, >> and I wasn't previously aware that National Rail stations could issue Z1-9 >> either.
> The extremities of the Metropolitan Line are a special case when it comes to > the "out-boundary" rule, in that National Rail ticket offices *can* issue a > Travelcard for them (Amersham to All Zones being the usual scenario) *and* > they don't turn into a pumpkin when you reach Amersham.
'Turn into a pumpkin' = 'get eaten'? Mind you, the ticket i had was bright orange in parts, so perhaps it was already part pumpkin? :)
> It also appears that the rules regarding other out-boundary Travelcards > have now been updated in "The Manual" and it now explicitly states that, > whilst not valid for another journey back to/from London after you > return to the origin point, they *do* retain the Travelcard validity > within Zones 1 to 6.
Ah, so if that's what i had, it should have eaten the ticket and spat out a Z1-6 TC? And does 'origin point' mean something unexpected, as i was nowhere near my origin!
I suppose i should have bought (or the guy should have sold me) a Z1-6 TC and a pair of off-peak singles from Z6 to WJ - 7.50 + 2*1.10 = 9.70. I could perhaps even have done the extension on pre-pay.
tom
-- History is about battles, great men, gory executions and wigs. That is all. -- The Richelieu Association
> "Paul Scott" wrote >> rosenst...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote >>> Would Croydon (or wherever, I see he wasn't too specific) have sold him >>> a >>> Watford Junction outboundary Travelcard, though? And wouldn't it be >>> valid >>> for a return trip to the zones if so?
>> I expect they could if asked, but the ticket would still not be valid >> after the first trip to Watford Jn. By analogy, as you are probabaly >> aware, the outward part of a two part ticket is not valid without the >> return...
> In the light of Barry's info, I'd clarify that by saying they are no > longer valid on the NR part of the route once they have been used to > return to the origin. As the barriers will have normally eaten it, using > the zonal validity again in the same day will require the user to avoid > the barriers.
Did you mean "the outboundary part of the route" rather than "the NR part of the route", or am I still misunderstanding?
John Salmon wrote: > "Paul Scott" wrote >> "Paul Scott" wrote >>> rosenst...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote
>>>> Would Croydon (or wherever, I see he wasn't too specific) have >>>> sold him a >>>> Watford Junction outboundary Travelcard, though? And wouldn't it be >>>> valid >>>> for a return trip to the zones if so?
>>> I expect they could if asked, but the ticket would still not be >>> valid after the first trip to Watford Jn. By analogy, as you are >>> probabaly aware, the outward part of a two part ticket is not valid >>> without the return...
>> In the light of Barry's info, I'd clarify that by saying they are no >> longer valid on the NR part of the route once they have been used to >> return to the origin. As the barriers will have normally eaten it, >> using the zonal validity again in the same day will require the user >> to avoid the barriers.
> Did you mean "the outboundary part of the route" rather than "the NR > part of the route", or am I still misunderstanding?
>> But outboundary travelcards should never be issued from within the >> zones, and I wasn't previously aware that National Rail stations could >> issue Z1-9 either.
> The extremities of the Metropolitan Line are a special case when it > comes to the "out-boundary" rule, in that National Rail ticket offices > *can* issue a Travelcard for them (Amersham to All Zones being the usual > scenario) *and* they don't turn into a pumpkin when you reach Amersham.
Theoretically, though when I've tried this on a couple of occasions (admittedly some time ago now) the responses were along the lines of "That's a underground station and we are a railway station and we don't sell tickets from underground stations, duh" or "Hmm, yes I see what you are trying to do, and you look like you've probably read something in Trainspotters' Fortnightly which says this is allowed, but the computer won't seem to let me sell that. Try an Underground station. 'cept there aren't none 'cos this is Croydon/Sutton".
>> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600, rosenst...@cix.compulink.co.uk >> wrote:
>>> Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?
>> It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction >> outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.
>I've checked by bank statement, and i paid 13.80 for the thing, at >Wallington, on a late monday morning IIRC. The only thing i can see in the >booklet is the off-peak Z1-9TC+WJ ticket, which is 13.50, so i think >you're right, although i don't know where the 30p comes from.
>And i note there's still nothing in the TfL fares booklet which indicates >that that ticket will be eaten at WJ.
isn't there some easement allowing use of Travelcards on TFL buses serving Watford which means the card should not be swallowed?
And, should not the OP have been sold a ODTC with extension BZ6 to Watford? -- Peter Lawrence
In article <3tmdnX27MP9DYmrXnZ2dnUVZ8nGdn...@bt.com>,
notvalidpmsc...@btinternet.com (Paul Scott) wrote: > In the light of Barry's info, I'd clarify that by saying they are > no longer valid on the NR part of the route once they have been > used to return to the origin. As the barriers will have normally > eaten it, using the zonal validity again in the same day will > require the user to avoid the barriers.
That isn't very different from the new situation with London Terminals tickets at King's Cross platforms 9-11. The tickets are eaten if put in the barrier but staff will open a gate for you if you ask.
In message <Zr6dneCHnNKeDmXXnZ2dnUVZ8qydn...@giganews.com>, rosenst...@cix.compulink.co.uk writes
>That isn't very different from the new situation with London Terminals >tickets at King's Cross platforms 9-11. The tickets are eaten if put in >the barrier but staff will open a gate for you if you ask.
Very much the same thing on a ticket from Luton to "London Thameslink" which gets eaten at barriers at St.Pancras (upper level) if you are silly enough to give it your ticket to chomp, even though the ticket is valid onwards e.g. to London Bridge. Again if you can find a manned barrier you can get through.
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