> Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required.
> Note the requirement does not apply if solely using LUL or TFL Rail > services.
> Example journey combinations (to show where it is needed)
> Snaresbrook - St Pauls (using LUL) = No > Green Park - Norbury (using LUL & Southern) = Yes > Goodge St - Harrow & Wealdstone (LUL & TOC) = Yes if using London > Midland > Temple - Beckton (using LUL and DLR) = No
> Once the OEP is loaded and the journey commences an entry charge will be > deducted from the card balance (even if starting with the zones valid on > the season). If the passenger touches out within the zonal validity of > their season then the charge is refunded and the OEP remains on the > card. If the passenger touches out beyond the zonal availability then > any further adjustment to the PAYG balance will be made and the OEP > cancelled. OEPs remain on cards until such time as travel beyond the > season availability is made where PAYG is valid.
> The reason for this - and I think it will be a touch message to get > across to people - is that if an OEP is not loaded before starting a > journey and a customer is caught outside the zones of their season > ticket by TOC revenue staff then they could be charged a penalty fare.
> I know no more than what is written above and I can think of lots of > questions such as "can you load more than one OEP if making a return > trip" or "what happens if there is no machine at a TOC station to allow > you load a OEP (unless validating is sufficient to register intent to > pay on PAYG?).
Presumably the return half of a journey would start as a PAYG journey, so the entry charge would automatically be charged. I suppose the alternative to the OEP would have been to impose the entry charge on all Oyster journeys (even totally with the zones on the card) which I could see being even more controversial.
Paul Corfield wrote: > Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required.
Nice! The complete opposite of trying to use PAYG to cut congestion by moving sales out of ticket offices and a potential recipe for chaos at small stations with limited numbers of machines prone to breaking down and/or limited ticket office staffing.
Is an OEP going to be needed for the return journey or is PAYG sufficient to start? (And what happens at stations on the zonal boudaries?)
And how have the TOCs coped on existing sections of PAYG validity?
> Note the requirement does not apply if solely using LUL or TFL Rail > services.
What about if the TOC section of the journey is entirely within the Travelcard validity but there's a step outside on LUL on TFL? (And I assume this also doesn't apply to DLR?)
> The reason for this - and I think it will be a touch message to get > across to people - is that if an OEP is not loaded before starting a > journey and a customer is caught outside the zones of their season > ticket by TOC revenue staff then they could be charged a penalty fare.
At some stations it's going to be very difficult to get the information clearly displayed at the right point - my local (Forest Gate) is simply not built or laid out in such a way that passengers are going to spot notices about changes to the fine details of PAYG until they're well past the ticket machine & office.
How long before a deluge of negative publicity and political pressure leads to this being ditched in the name of simplification and user friendlieness?
> How long before a deluge of negative publicity and political pressure leads > to this being ditched in the name of simplification and user friendlieness?
I suspect that, partially at least, that's what TfL are hoping:
Public: "Oh my God why is it so complex?"
TfL: *pointing at the TOCs* "We didn't want to do it. You should put pressure on them to make it simpler."
Whether it is actually the result of TOC pressure or not, that would certainly be in line with the approach taken by TfL and the Mayor to the impending SLL disappearance ("Not us guv. Talk to the DfT").
> I guess some of this will appear very soon given the TOCs are all signed > up for PAYG on NR and the Mayor is scheduled to make an announcement > imminently (no idea on date - just going by the fares press release).
> The info comes from internal LU info freely available inside LUL.
> A change was made in September that means that people using a > combination of season ticket (Travelcard) and PAYG now have a standard > entry charge of £2.80 applied if entering outside the validity of their > Travelcard. This differs from the previous method of charging the > minimum entry charge. The £2.80 is apparently at the request of the TOCs > and is an advance change as part of extending PAYG. At final exit the > gate will calculate the correct additional fare due and will add back to > or further deduct from the PAYG balance as required.
> If you enter at a station within the validity of your season ticket then > there is no deduction on entry made and at final exit the fare due is > deducted from the PAYG balance
> For example - passenger holds Z12 Travelcard, travelling at off peak > times.
> Enter in Zone 3 - deduct £2.80 > Exit in Zone 1 - add back £1.70 so only £1.10 is charged for the Zone 3 > element.
> Enter in Zone 1 - nothing deducted > Exit in Zone 3 - deduct £1.10 for the Zone 3 element.
> E.g. If the passenger fails to touch out at Zone 1 then they have an > incomplete journey charged at £2.80.
> Note that the above only applies where PAYG is valid. Entering via a > gateline where PAYG does not apply does not mean you have "entered" so > far as PAYG is concerned. You must touch in at the logical interchange > point within the validity of your ticket or else the default entry > charge will apply.
> Two other items
> Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required.
> Note the requirement does not apply if solely using LUL or TFL Rail > services.
> Example journey combinations (to show where it is needed)
> Snaresbrook - St Pauls (using LUL) = No > Green Park - Norbury (using LUL & Southern) = Yes > Goodge St - Harrow & Wealdstone (LUL & TOC) = Yes if using London > Midland > Temple - Beckton (using LUL and DLR) = No
> Once the OEP is loaded and the journey commences an entry charge will be > deducted from the card balance (even if starting with the zones valid on > the season). If the passenger touches out within the zonal validity of > their season then the charge is refunded and the OEP remains on the > card. If the passenger touches out beyond the zonal availability then > any further adjustment to the PAYG balance will be made and the OEP > cancelled. OEPs remain on cards until such time as travel beyond the > season availability is made where PAYG is valid.
> The reason for this - and I think it will be a touch message to get > across to people - is that if an OEP is not loaded before starting a > journey and a customer is caught outside the zones of their season > ticket by TOC revenue staff then they could be charged a penalty fare.
> I know no more than what is written above and I can think of lots of > questions such as "can you load more than one OEP if making a return > trip" or "what happens if there is no machine at a TOC station to allow > you load a OEP (unless validating is sufficient to register intent to > pay on PAYG?).
> The other bit of info is to confirm what has long been suspected about > charging for PAYG once it is extended to NR . There will be three scales > as follows :-
> A TfL scale covering LUL, DLR, LOROL and NR interavailable routes (as > now) > A NR only scale covering TOC journeys in the zones. > A NR + TfL scale covering TOC and LUL / DLR / LOROL journeys.
> Note that LOROL (although a TOC) is charged at TfL rates if a journey is > solely on LOROL or combined with another TfL service like DLR or LUL. > Combinations of LOROL and NR are charged on the NR Scale
> This is not really any different from the current zonal pricing for TfL, > NR only and Tube / Train tickets for journeys inside the zones.
> I am not going to give example fares as I don't have them for 2010 > rates. The examples I do have indicate the current peak / off peak price > bands will apply to all three fare scales - now I would personally wait > to see what is published officially for 2010 to make sure this principle > applies as it creates some interesting interaction with existing TOC > peak restrictions.
> To illustrate what fare scale applies where here are some journey > examples
> Camden Town - London Bridge - route LUL - TfL Scale > Camden Road - Stratford - route Overground - TfL scale > London Bridge - East Croydon - Southern / FCC - NR Scale > Camden Town - East Croydon - LUL & Southern / FCC - TfL & NR Scale > Camden Road - Canary Wharf - Overground & Jub Line - TfL scale > Camden Road - Romford - Overground & NXEA - NR Scale
> Now in anticipation of Boltar, MIG and Solar Penguin being further > outraged by this Oyster news I have already shot myself (as the > messenger) several times and am just off to hospital to get patched up > ;-)
> I am sure there will be the usual flood of questions but unfortunately I > suspect I will not know the answers. Nonetheless I hope the above was > useful for some folks.
Only to clarify that the information really is as I interpreted it. Not outraged, because this really does seem to indicate the end of Oyster. Various commitments exist to make it available, and no doubt the installed equipment will have some kind of future use, but there is no longer any political will to extend Oyster, so it seems to have been decided that what extension there is will be unusable.
If I've got this right, rather than charge on entry in a way that would ultimately mean everyone would have to have enough credit for an open first class return from Penzance to Thurso, an brilliant alternative has been devised.
In order to use Oyster to avoid having to queue for tickets, you have to queue for a ticket to allow you to use Oyster. That's just so bizarre and laughable that one can't get outraged. It's also completely unnecessary except as a clumsy way of sabotaging the extension of Oyster. I can't think of a situation where it helps to enforce anything.
If you are getting off within the extended PAYG area, you'll be charged on exit.
If you are using PAYG start a journey to Crewe on LM, if you get caught outside the London area you'll have no ticket anyway, so it only makes a difference if gripped early on. What's to stop one continuing one's journey, with OEP or unresolved journey, to Crewe or Brighton in any case, if one is stupid enough to try?
(I'm not expecting you to be able to answer of course; the messenger I know.)
> On 25 Oct, 22:23, Paul Corfield <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > I guess some of this will appear very soon given the TOCs are all signed > > up for PAYG on NR and the Mayor is scheduled to make an announcement > > imminently (no idea on date - just going by the fares press release).
> > The info comes from internal LU info freely available inside LUL.
> > A change was made in September that means that people using a > > combination of season ticket (Travelcard) and PAYG now have a standard > > entry charge of £2.80 applied if entering outside the validity of their > > Travelcard. This differs from the previous method of charging the > > minimum entry charge. The £2.80 is apparently at the request of the TOCs > > and is an advance change as part of extending PAYG. At final exit the > > gate will calculate the correct additional fare due and will add back to > > or further deduct from the PAYG balance as required.
> > If you enter at a station within the validity of your season ticket then > > there is no deduction on entry made and at final exit the fare due is > > deducted from the PAYG balance
> > For example - passenger holds Z12 Travelcard, travelling at off peak > > times.
> > Enter in Zone 3 - deduct £2.80 > > Exit in Zone 1 - add back £1.70 so only £1.10 is charged for the Zone 3 > > element.
> > Enter in Zone 1 - nothing deducted > > Exit in Zone 3 - deduct £1.10 for the Zone 3 element.
> > E.g. If the passenger fails to touch out at Zone 1 then they have an > > incomplete journey charged at £2.80.
> > Note that the above only applies where PAYG is valid. Entering via a > > gateline where PAYG does not apply does not mean you have "entered" so > > far as PAYG is concerned. You must touch in at the logical interchange > > point within the validity of your ticket or else the default entry > > charge will apply.
> > Two other items
> > Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required.
> > Note the requirement does not apply if solely using LUL or TFL Rail > > services.
> > Example journey combinations (to show where it is needed)
> > Snaresbrook - St Pauls (using LUL) = No > > Green Park - Norbury (using LUL & Southern) = Yes > > Goodge St - Harrow & Wealdstone (LUL & TOC) = Yes if using London > > Midland > > Temple - Beckton (using LUL and DLR) = No
> > Once the OEP is loaded and the journey commences an entry charge will be > > deducted from the card balance (even if starting with the zones valid on > > the season). If the passenger touches out within the zonal validity of > > their season then the charge is refunded and the OEP remains on the > > card. If the passenger touches out beyond the zonal availability then > > any further adjustment to the PAYG balance will be made and the OEP > > cancelled. OEPs remain on cards until such time as travel beyond the > > season availability is made where PAYG is valid.
> > The reason for this - and I think it will be a touch message to get > > across to people - is that if an OEP is not loaded before starting a > > journey and a customer is caught outside the zones of their season > > ticket by TOC revenue staff then they could be charged a penalty fare.
> > I know no more than what is written above and I can think of lots of > > questions such as "can you load more than one OEP if making a return > > trip" or "what happens if there is no machine at a TOC station to allow > > you load a OEP (unless validating is sufficient to register intent to > > pay on PAYG?).
> > The other bit of info is to confirm what has long been suspected about > > charging for PAYG once it is extended to NR . There will be three scales > > as follows :-
> > A TfL scale covering LUL, DLR, LOROL and NR interavailable routes (as > > now) > > A NR only scale covering TOC journeys in the zones. > > A NR + TfL scale covering TOC and LUL / DLR / LOROL journeys.
> > Note that LOROL (although a TOC) is charged at TfL rates if a journey is > > solely on LOROL or combined with another TfL service like DLR or LUL. > > Combinations of LOROL and NR are charged on the NR Scale
> > This is not really any different from the current zonal pricing for TfL, > > NR only and Tube / Train tickets for journeys inside the zones.
> > I am not going to give example fares as I don't have them for 2010 > > rates. The examples I do have indicate the current peak / off peak price > > bands will apply to all three fare scales - now I would personally wait > > to see what is published officially for 2010 to make sure this principle > > applies as it creates some interesting interaction with existing TOC > > peak restrictions.
> > To illustrate what fare scale applies where here are some journey > > examples
> > Camden Town - London Bridge - route LUL - TfL Scale > > Camden Road - Stratford - route Overground - TfL scale > > London Bridge - East Croydon - Southern / FCC - NR Scale > > Camden Town - East Croydon - LUL & Southern / FCC - TfL & NR Scale > > Camden Road - Canary Wharf - Overground & Jub Line - TfL scale > > Camden Road - Romford - Overground & NXEA - NR Scale
> > Now in anticipation of Boltar, MIG and Solar Penguin being further > > outraged by this Oyster news I have already shot myself (as the > > messenger) several times and am just off to hospital to get patched up > > ;-)
> > I am sure there will be the usual flood of questions but unfortunately I > > suspect I will not know the answers. Nonetheless I hope the above was > > useful for some folks.
> Only to clarify that the information really is as I interpreted it. > Not outraged, because this really does seem to indicate the end of > Oyster. Various commitments exist to make it available, and no doubt > the installed equipment will have some kind of future use, but there > is no longer any political will to extend Oyster, so it seems to have > been decided that what extension there is will be unusable.
> If I've got this right, rather than charge on entry in a way that > would ultimately mean everyone would have to have enough credit for an > open first class return from Penzance to Thurso, an brilliant > alternative has been devised.
> In order to use Oyster to avoid having to queue for tickets, you have > to queue for a ticket to allow you to use Oyster. That's just so > bizarre and laughable that one can't get outraged. It's also > completely unnecessary except as a clumsy way of sabotaging the > extension of Oyster. I can't think of a situation where it helps to > enforce anything.
> If you are getting off within the extended PAYG area, you'll be > charged on exit.
> If you are using PAYG start a journey to Crewe on LM, if you get > caught outside the London area you'll have no ticket anyway, so it > only makes a difference if gripped early on. What's to stop one > continuing one's journey, with OEP or unresolved journey, to Crewe or > Brighton in any case, if one is stupid enough to try?
> (I'm not expecting you to be able to answer of course; the messenger I > know.)
It's not really aimed at travel outside the zones. The problem for the TOCs is that few of their stations are gated, and thus at present they feel there is no incentive to touch out where a journey has been started with a Travelcard.
> On 26 Oct, 10:42, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 25 Oct, 22:23, Paul Corfield <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > > I guess some of this will appear very soon given the TOCs are all signed > > > up for PAYG on NR and the Mayor is scheduled to make an announcement > > > imminently (no idea on date - just going by the fares press release).
> > > The info comes from internal LU info freely available inside LUL.
> > > A change was made in September that means that people using a > > > combination of season ticket (Travelcard) and PAYG now have a standard > > > entry charge of £2.80 applied if entering outside the validity of their > > > Travelcard. This differs from the previous method of charging the > > > minimum entry charge. The £2.80 is apparently at the request of the TOCs > > > and is an advance change as part of extending PAYG. At final exit the > > > gate will calculate the correct additional fare due and will add back to > > > or further deduct from the PAYG balance as required.
> > > If you enter at a station within the validity of your season ticket then > > > there is no deduction on entry made and at final exit the fare due is > > > deducted from the PAYG balance
> > > For example - passenger holds Z12 Travelcard, travelling at off peak > > > times.
> > > Enter in Zone 3 - deduct £2.80 > > > Exit in Zone 1 - add back £1.70 so only £1.10 is charged for the Zone 3 > > > element.
> > > Enter in Zone 1 - nothing deducted > > > Exit in Zone 3 - deduct £1.10 for the Zone 3 element.
> > > E.g. If the passenger fails to touch out at Zone 1 then they have an > > > incomplete journey charged at £2.80.
> > > Note that the above only applies where PAYG is valid. Entering via a > > > gateline where PAYG does not apply does not mean you have "entered" so > > > far as PAYG is concerned. You must touch in at the logical interchange > > > point within the validity of your ticket or else the default entry > > > charge will apply.
> > > Two other items
> > > Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > > > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > > > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > > > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > > > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > > > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > > > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required.
> > > Note the requirement does not apply if solely using LUL or TFL Rail > > > services.
> > > Example journey combinations (to show where it is needed)
> > > Snaresbrook - St Pauls (using LUL) = No > > > Green Park - Norbury (using LUL & Southern) = Yes > > > Goodge St - Harrow & Wealdstone (LUL & TOC) = Yes if using London > > > Midland > > > Temple - Beckton (using LUL and DLR) = No
> > > Once the OEP is loaded and the journey commences an entry charge will be > > > deducted from the card balance (even if starting with the zones valid on > > > the season). If the passenger touches out within the zonal validity of > > > their season then the charge is refunded and the OEP remains on the > > > card. If the passenger touches out beyond the zonal availability then > > > any further adjustment to the PAYG balance will be made and the OEP > > > cancelled. OEPs remain on cards until such time as travel beyond the > > > season availability is made where PAYG is valid.
> > > The reason for this - and I think it will be a touch message to get > > > across to people - is that if an OEP is not loaded before starting a > > > journey and a customer is caught outside the zones of their season > > > ticket by TOC revenue staff then they could be charged a penalty fare.
> > > I know no more than what is written above and I can think of lots of > > > questions such as "can you load more than one OEP if making a return > > > trip" or "what happens if there is no machine at a TOC station to allow > > > you load a OEP (unless validating is sufficient to register intent to > > > pay on PAYG?).
> > > The other bit of info is to confirm what has long been suspected about > > > charging for PAYG once it is extended to NR . There will be three scales > > > as follows :-
> > > A TfL scale covering LUL, DLR, LOROL and NR interavailable routes (as > > > now) > > > A NR only scale covering TOC journeys in the zones. > > > A NR + TfL scale covering TOC and LUL / DLR / LOROL journeys.
> > > Note that LOROL (although a TOC) is charged at TfL rates if a journey is > > > solely on LOROL or combined with another TfL service like DLR or LUL. > > > Combinations of LOROL and NR are charged on the NR Scale
> > > This is not really any different from the current zonal pricing for TfL, > > > NR only and Tube / Train tickets for journeys inside the zones.
> > > I am not going to give example fares as I don't have them for 2010 > > > rates. The examples I do have indicate the current peak / off peak price > > > bands will apply to all three fare scales - now I would personally wait > > > to see what is published officially for 2010 to make sure this principle > > > applies as it creates some interesting interaction with existing TOC > > > peak restrictions.
> > > To illustrate what fare scale applies where here are some journey > > > examples
> > > Camden Town - London Bridge - route LUL - TfL Scale > > > Camden Road - Stratford - route Overground - TfL scale > > > London Bridge - East Croydon - Southern / FCC - NR Scale > > > Camden Town - East Croydon - LUL & Southern / FCC - TfL & NR Scale > > > Camden Road - Canary Wharf - Overground & Jub Line - TfL scale > > > Camden Road - Romford - Overground & NXEA - NR Scale
> > > Now in anticipation of Boltar, MIG and Solar Penguin being further > > > outraged by this Oyster news I have already shot myself (as the > > > messenger) several times and am just off to hospital to get patched up > > > ;-)
> > > I am sure there will be the usual flood of questions but unfortunately I > > > suspect I will not know the answers. Nonetheless I hope the above was > > > useful for some folks.
> > Only to clarify that the information really is as I interpreted it. > > Not outraged, because this really does seem to indicate the end of > > Oyster. Various commitments exist to make it available, and no doubt > > the installed equipment will have some kind of future use, but there > > is no longer any political will to extend Oyster, so it seems to have > > been decided that what extension there is will be unusable.
> > If I've got this right, rather than charge on entry in a way that > > would ultimately mean everyone would have to have enough credit for an > > open first class return from Penzance to Thurso, an brilliant > > alternative has been devised.
> > In order to use Oyster to avoid having to queue for tickets, you have > > to queue for a ticket to allow you to use Oyster. That's just so > > bizarre and laughable that one can't get outraged. It's also > > completely unnecessary except as a clumsy way of sabotaging the > > extension of Oyster. I can't think of a situation where it helps to > > enforce anything.
> > If you are getting off within the extended PAYG area, you'll be > > charged on exit.
> > If you are using PAYG start a journey to Crewe on LM, if you get > > caught outside the London area you'll have no ticket anyway, so it > > only makes a difference if gripped early on. What's to stop one > > continuing one's journey, with OEP or unresolved journey, to Crewe or > > Brighton in any case, if one is stupid enough to try?
> > (I'm not expecting you to be able to answer of course; the messenger I > > know.)
> It's not really aimed at travel outside the zones. The problem for the > TOCs is that few of their stations are gated, and thus at present they > feel there is no incentive to touch out where a journey has been > started with a Travelcard.
So it only applies if gripped between where your travelcard zones run out and your destination station in the PAYG area?
In that case, it's the same problem as on the DLR and any few ungated stations there might be.
I am not aware that, having touched in at Oxford Circus with a zone 1 - 2 travelcard on Oyster, one is PFed if gripped on the DLR on the way to Woolwich.
> On 26 Oct, 13:43, Matthew Dickinson <matthewleedickin...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > On 26 Oct, 10:42, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
> > > On 25 Oct, 22:23, Paul Corfield <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > > > I guess some of this will appear very soon given the TOCs are all signed > > > > up for PAYG on NR and the Mayor is scheduled to make an announcement > > > > imminently (no idea on date - just going by the fares press release).
> > > > The info comes from internal LU info freely available inside LUL.
> > > > A change was made in September that means that people using a > > > > combination of season ticket (Travelcard) and PAYG now have a standard > > > > entry charge of £2.80 applied if entering outside the validity of their > > > > Travelcard. This differs from the previous method of charging the > > > > minimum entry charge. The £2.80 is apparently at the request of the TOCs > > > > and is an advance change as part of extending PAYG. At final exit the > > > > gate will calculate the correct additional fare due and will add back to > > > > or further deduct from the PAYG balance as required.
> > > > If you enter at a station within the validity of your season ticket then > > > > there is no deduction on entry made and at final exit the fare due is > > > > deducted from the PAYG balance
> > > > For example - passenger holds Z12 Travelcard, travelling at off peak > > > > times.
> > > > Enter in Zone 3 - deduct £2.80 > > > > Exit in Zone 1 - add back £1.70 so only £1.10 is charged for the Zone 3 > > > > element.
> > > > Enter in Zone 1 - nothing deducted > > > > Exit in Zone 3 - deduct £1.10 for the Zone 3 element.
> > > > E.g. If the passenger fails to touch out at Zone 1 then they have an > > > > incomplete journey charged at £2.80.
> > > > Note that the above only applies where PAYG is valid. Entering via a > > > > gateline where PAYG does not apply does not mean you have "entered" so > > > > far as PAYG is concerned. You must touch in at the logical interchange > > > > point within the validity of your ticket or else the default entry > > > > charge will apply.
> > > > Two other items
> > > > Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > > > > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > > > > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > > > > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > > > > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > > > > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > > > > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required.
> > > > Note the requirement does not apply if solely using LUL or TFL Rail > > > > services.
> > > > Example journey combinations (to show where it is needed)
> > > > Snaresbrook - St Pauls (using LUL) = No > > > > Green Park - Norbury (using LUL & Southern) = Yes > > > > Goodge St - Harrow & Wealdstone (LUL & TOC) = Yes if using London > > > > Midland > > > > Temple - Beckton (using LUL and DLR) = No
> > > > Once the OEP is loaded and the journey commences an entry charge will be > > > > deducted from the card balance (even if starting with the zones valid on > > > > the season). If the passenger touches out within the zonal validity of > > > > their season then the charge is refunded and the OEP remains on the > > > > card. If the passenger touches out beyond the zonal availability then > > > > any further adjustment to the PAYG balance will be made and the OEP > > > > cancelled. OEPs remain on cards until such time as travel beyond the > > > > season availability is made where PAYG is valid.
> > > > The reason for this - and I think it will be a touch message to get > > > > across to people - is that if an OEP is not loaded before starting a > > > > journey and a customer is caught outside the zones of their season > > > > ticket by TOC revenue staff then they could be charged a penalty fare.
> > > > I know no more than what is written above and I can think of lots of > > > > questions such as "can you load more than one OEP if making a return > > > > trip" or "what happens if there is no machine at a TOC station to allow > > > > you load a OEP (unless validating is sufficient to register intent to > > > > pay on PAYG?).
> > > > The other bit of info is to confirm what has long been suspected about > > > > charging for PAYG once it is extended to NR . There will be three scales > > > > as follows :-
> > > > A TfL scale covering LUL, DLR, LOROL and NR interavailable routes (as > > > > now) > > > > A NR only scale covering TOC journeys in the zones. > > > > A NR + TfL scale covering TOC and LUL / DLR / LOROL journeys.
> > > > Note that LOROL (although a TOC) is charged at TfL rates if a journey is > > > > solely on LOROL or combined with another TfL service like DLR or LUL. > > > > Combinations of LOROL and NR are charged on the NR Scale
> > > > This is not really any different from the current zonal pricing for TfL, > > > > NR only and Tube / Train tickets for journeys inside the zones.
> > > > I am not going to give example fares as I don't have them for 2010 > > > > rates. The examples I do have indicate the current peak / off peak price > > > > bands will apply to all three fare scales - now I would personally wait > > > > to see what is published officially for 2010 to make sure this principle > > > > applies as it creates some interesting interaction with existing TOC > > > > peak restrictions.
> > > > To illustrate what fare scale applies where here are some journey > > > > examples
> > > > Camden Town - London Bridge - route LUL - TfL Scale > > > > Camden Road - Stratford - route Overground - TfL scale > > > > London Bridge - East Croydon - Southern / FCC - NR Scale > > > > Camden Town - East Croydon - LUL & Southern / FCC - TfL & NR Scale > > > > Camden Road - Canary Wharf - Overground & Jub Line - TfL scale > > > > Camden Road - Romford - Overground & NXEA - NR Scale
> > > > Now in anticipation of Boltar, MIG and Solar Penguin being further > > > > outraged by this Oyster news I have already shot myself (as the > > > > messenger) several times and am just off to hospital to get patched up > > > > ;-)
> > > > I am sure there will be the usual flood of questions but unfortunately I > > > > suspect I will not know the answers. Nonetheless I hope the above was > > > > useful for some folks.
> > > Only to clarify that the information really is as I interpreted it. > > > Not outraged, because this really does seem to indicate the end of > > > Oyster. Various commitments exist to make it available, and no doubt > > > the installed equipment will have some kind of future use, but there > > > is no longer any political will to extend Oyster, so it seems to have > > > been decided that what extension there is will be unusable.
> > > If I've got this right, rather than charge on entry in a way that > > > would ultimately mean everyone would have to have enough credit for an > > > open first class return from Penzance to Thurso, an brilliant > > > alternative has been devised.
> > > In order to use Oyster to avoid having to queue for tickets, you have .
> So it only applies if gripped between where your travelcard zones run > out and your destination station in the PAYG area?
> In that case, it's the same problem as on the DLR and any few ungated > stations there might be.
> I am not aware that, having touched in at Oxford Circus with a zone 1 > - 2 travelcard on Oyster, one is PFed if gripped on the DLR on the way > to Woolwich.
The difference is that TfL do not mind taking the revenue risk, and the TOCs are reluctant to expose themselves to that risk.
> Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required.
What an awful awful idea! It looks like TOCs invented the way to make Oyster nominally available London-wide but unusable in reality.
> Now in anticipation of Boltar, MIG and Solar Penguin being further > outraged by this Oyster news I have already shot myself (as the > messenger) several times and am just off to hospital to get patched up > ;-)
Oh, I'm not outraged. If anything I'm smugly pleased that it's confirmed my opinion that (although Oyster might in theory sort-of work on the Underground) it's going to take substantial re-thinking of the whole concept to even begin turning it into something that's useful out in the real world, for real journeys on real trains.
In fact, I'm finding it very hard to resist saying "I told you so!" while jumping up and down for joy.
>> Now in anticipation of Boltar, MIG and Solar Penguin being further >> outraged by this Oyster news I have already shot myself (as the >> messenger) several times and am just off to hospital to get patched up >> ;-)
I haven't been following , but PAYG Oyster has been a scam ever since it came out so nothing would surprise me.
> On 26 Oct, 14:22, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 26 Oct, 13:43, Matthew Dickinson <matthewleedickin...@gmail.com> > > wrote:
> > > On 26 Oct, 10:42, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > On 25 Oct, 22:23, Paul Corfield <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > > > > I guess some of this will appear very soon given the TOCs are all signed > > > > > up for PAYG on NR and the Mayor is scheduled to make an announcement > > > > > imminently (no idea on date - just going by the fares press release).
> > > > > The info comes from internal LU info freely available inside LUL.
> > > > > A change was made in September that means that people using a > > > > > combination of season ticket (Travelcard) and PAYG now have a standard > > > > > entry charge of £2.80 applied if entering outside the validity of their > > > > > Travelcard. This differs from the previous method of charging the > > > > > minimum entry charge. The £2.80 is apparently at the request of the TOCs > > > > > and is an advance change as part of extending PAYG. At final exit the > > > > > gate will calculate the correct additional fare due and will add back to > > > > > or further deduct from the PAYG balance as required.
> > > > > If you enter at a station within the validity of your season ticket then > > > > > there is no deduction on entry made and at final exit the fare due is > > > > > deducted from the PAYG balance
> > > > > For example - passenger holds Z12 Travelcard, travelling at off peak > > > > > times.
> > > > > Enter in Zone 3 - deduct £2.80 > > > > > Exit in Zone 1 - add back £1.70 so only £1.10 is charged for the Zone 3 > > > > > element.
> > > > > Enter in Zone 1 - nothing deducted > > > > > Exit in Zone 3 - deduct £1.10 for the Zone 3 element.
> > > > > E.g. If the passenger fails to touch out at Zone 1 then they have an > > > > > incomplete journey charged at £2.80.
> > > > > Note that the above only applies where PAYG is valid. Entering via a > > > > > gateline where PAYG does not apply does not mean you have "entered" so > > > > > far as PAYG is concerned. You must touch in at the logical interchange > > > > > point within the validity of your ticket or else the default entry > > > > > charge will apply.
> > > > > Two other items
> > > > > Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > > > > > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > > > > > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > > > > > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > > > > > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > > > > > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > > > > > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required.
> > > > > Note the requirement does not apply if solely using LUL or TFL Rail > > > > > services.
> > > > > Example journey combinations (to show where it is needed)
> > > > > Snaresbrook - St Pauls (using LUL) = No > > > > > Green Park - Norbury (using LUL & Southern) = Yes > > > > > Goodge St - Harrow & Wealdstone (LUL & TOC) = Yes if using London > > > > > Midland > > > > > Temple - Beckton (using LUL and DLR) = No
> > > > > Once the OEP is loaded and the journey commences an entry charge will be > > > > > deducted from the card balance (even if starting with the zones valid on > > > > > the season). If the passenger touches out within the zonal validity of > > > > > their season then the charge is refunded and the OEP remains on the > > > > > card. If the passenger touches out beyond the zonal availability then > > > > > any further adjustment to the PAYG balance will be made and the OEP > > > > > cancelled. OEPs remain on cards until such time as travel beyond the > > > > > season availability is made where PAYG is valid.
> > > > > The reason for this - and I think it will be a touch message to get > > > > > across to people - is that if an OEP is not loaded before starting a > > > > > journey and a customer is caught outside the zones of their season > > > > > ticket by TOC revenue staff then they could be charged a penalty fare.
> > > > > I know no more than what is written above and I can think of lots of > > > > > questions such as "can you load more than one OEP if making a return > > > > > trip" or "what happens if there is no machine at a TOC station to allow > > > > > you load a OEP (unless validating is sufficient to register intent to > > > > > pay on PAYG?).
> > > > > The other bit of info is to confirm what has long been suspected about > > > > > charging for PAYG once it is extended to NR . There will be three scales > > > > > as follows :-
> > > > > A TfL scale covering LUL, DLR, LOROL and NR interavailable routes (as > > > > > now) > > > > > A NR only scale covering TOC journeys in the zones. > > > > > A NR + TfL scale covering TOC and LUL / DLR / LOROL journeys.
> > > > > Note that LOROL (although a TOC) is charged at TfL rates if a journey is > > > > > solely on LOROL or combined with another TfL service like DLR or LUL. > > > > > Combinations of LOROL and NR are charged on the NR Scale
> > > > > This is not really any different from the current zonal pricing for TfL, > > > > > NR only and Tube / Train tickets for journeys inside the zones.
> > > > > I am not going to give example fares as I don't have them for 2010 > > > > > rates. The examples I do have indicate the current peak / off peak price > > > > > bands will apply to all three fare scales - now I would personally wait > > > > > to see what is published officially for 2010 to make sure this principle > > > > > applies as it creates some interesting interaction with existing TOC > > > > > peak restrictions.
> > > > > To illustrate what fare scale applies where here are some journey > > > > > examples
> > > > > Now in anticipation of Boltar, MIG and Solar Penguin being further > > > > > outraged by this Oyster news I have already shot myself (as the > > > > > messenger) several times and am just off to hospital to get patched up > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > I am sure there will be the usual flood of questions but unfortunately I > > > > > suspect I will not know the answers. Nonetheless I hope the above was > > > > > useful for some folks.
> > > > Only to clarify that the information really is as I interpreted it. > > > > Not outraged, because this really does seem to indicate the end of > > > > Oyster. Various commitments exist to make it available, and no doubt > > > > the installed equipment will have some kind of future use, but there > > > > is no longer any political will to extend Oyster, so it seems to have > > > > been decided that what extension there is will be unusable.
> > > > If I've got this right, rather than charge on entry in a way that > > > > would ultimately mean everyone would have to have enough credit for an > > > > open first class return from Penzance to Thurso, an brilliant > > > > alternative has been devised.
> > > > In order to use Oyster to avoid having to queue for tickets, you have > .
> > So it only applies if gripped between where your travelcard zones run > > out and your destination station in the PAYG area?
> > In that case, it's the same problem as on the DLR and any few ungated > > stations there might be.
> > I am not aware that, having touched in at Oxford Circus with a zone 1 > > - 2 travelcard on Oyster, one is PFed if gripped on the DLR on the way > > to Woolwich.
> The difference is that TfL do not mind taking the revenue risk, and > the TOCs are reluctant to expose themselves to that risk.
This got me thinking something else about travelcards and the differential journey times.
Does anyone know if the maximum journey time is calculated for the PAYG bit only or for the whole journey, including the travelcard part?
For example, if you've got a zone 1 - 4 season and touch in at Northolt and touch out at Beckton, it's likely that you'll be touching out after more than the journey time allowed for Northolt to Greenford, which is the bit that you'd be paying for on PAYG.
> Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required.
If they really think they want to do this then they'll have to do better than having them 'loaded at ticket offices and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines' as passengers with Travelcards and PAYG would not normally be dealing with either and it doesn't allow for people changing their journey plans en route. They ought to allow for them to be ordered online and collected at gatelines and if they want to issue penalty fares based on the lack of the OEP then they'll have to have machines on all platforms and all trains.
> > Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required. > If they really think they want to do this then they'll have to do better > than having them 'loaded at ticket offices and at all Oyster compatible > ticket machines' as passengers with Travelcards and PAYG would not normally > be dealing with either and it doesn't allow for people changing their > journey plans en route. They ought to allow for them to be ordered online > and collected at gatelines and if they want to issue penalty fares based on > the lack of the OEP then they'll have to have machines on all platforms and > all trains.
But if OEPs are free, at what point will a charge occur ?
And since they are free, why not get one or several as you pass a machine since they can hardly kick in unless you leave LT for NR and touch a validator ?
>> > Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is > extended. >> > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC > services >> > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend > a >> > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you > will >> > need to have a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket > offices >> > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge > for a >> > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least £1.50 will be required.
>> If they really think they want to do this then they'll have to do > better >> than having them 'loaded at ticket offices and at all Oyster > compatible >> ticket machines' as passengers with Travelcards and PAYG would not > normally >> be dealing with either and it doesn't allow for people changing their
>> journey plans en route. They ought to allow for them to be ordered > online >> and collected at gatelines and if they want to issue penalty fares > based on >> the lack of the OEP then they'll have to have machines on all > platforms and >> all trains.
> But if OEPs are free, at what point will a charge occur ?
> And since they are free, why not get one or several as you pass a > machine since they can hardly kick in unless you leave LT for NR and > touch a validator ?
From Paul's OP:
"OEPs remain on cards until such time as travel beyond the season availability is made where PAYG is valid."
So It seems you can have one loaded, just in case you may wish to travel beyond your travel card validity in the future. Whether you can have more than one is not stated.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 03:11:13PM -0700, Alex wrote: > > Oyster Extension Permits - these will come in when PAYG is extended. > > This is the way of ensuring that your intent to travel on TOC services > > using PAYG is flagged on your Oyster Card. Before seeking to extend a > > trip on to TOC services which combines a Travelcard and PAYG you will > > need to have =A0a OEP on your card. These can be loaded at ticket offices > > and at all Oyster compatible ticket machines. There is no charge for a > > OEP but a PAYG balance of at least =A31.50 will be required. > What an awful awful idea! It looks like TOCs invented the way to make > Oyster nominally available London-wide but unusable in reality.
Will there be Oystery ticket machines at stations? Will they be able to sell me an Oystery travelcard at the ticket office?
-- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic
It wouldn't hurt to think like a serial killer every so often. Purely for purposes of prevention, of course.
> But if OEPs are free, at what point will a charge occur ? > And since they are free, why not get one or several as you pass a > machine since they can hardly kick in unless you leave LT for NR and > touch a validator ?
And will they be for sale on TfL machines? If not, will machines be placed on the platforms at interchange stations or will the likes of Stratford become *more* congested as people have to make the trek down to the ticket hall (which is largely TfL anyway, just adding to confusion) instead of having an easy interchange?
On 29 Oct, 00:57, "Michael R N Dolbear" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> But if OEPs are free, at what point will a charge occur ?
> And since they are free, why not get one or several as you pass a > machine since they can hardly kick in unless you leave LT for NR and > touch a validator ?
With one loaded, you have to be careful to always touch out at ungated stations, which isn't currently necessary when using a Travelcard.
On 29 Oct, 12:02, Ganesh Sittampalam <ganesh.sittampa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 29 Oct, 00:57, "Michael R N Dolbear" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> > But if OEPs are free, at what point will a charge occur ?
> > And since they are free, why not get one or several as you pass a > > machine since they can hardly kick in unless you leave LT for NR and > > touch a validator ?
> With one loaded, you have to be careful to always touch out at ungated > stations, which isn't currently necessary when using a Travelcard.
> Ganesh
Not if you don't have to use it up right away, from what's been said. So you get gripped, prove that you've got an OEP, but then don't touch out anyway, and it stays on your card till you go through a gated station outside your zones, or possibly forever.
On 29 Oct, 12:23, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
> Not if you don't have to use it up right away, from what's been said. > So you get gripped, prove that you've got an OEP, but then don't touch > out anyway, and it stays on your card till you go through a gated > station outside your zones, or possibly forever.
You've missed the important part of the OEP, which is that it causes you to get charged when you touch in. If you don't touch out then you end up with an incomplete journey and the entry charge remains.
(the whole idea is too impractical to enforce, but the logic is sound)
On 29 Oct, 13:24, Mr Thant <maha.thray.sithu.u.th...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 29 Oct, 12:23, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
> > Not if you don't have to use it up right away, from what's been said. > > So you get gripped, prove that you've got an OEP, but then don't touch > > out anyway, and it stays on your card till you go through a gated > > station outside your zones, or possibly forever.
> You've missed the important part of the OEP, which is that it causes > you to get charged when you touch in. If you don't touch out then you > end up with an incomplete journey and the entry charge remains.
> (the whole idea is too impractical to enforce, but the logic is sound)
> U
Still doesn't seem like much if you frequently extend to an ungated station and only get charged at the beginning. The incomplete journey presumably remains completable indefinitely, without time limit?
On 29 Oct, 14:09, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
> Still doesn't seem like much if you frequently extend to an ungated > station and only get charged at the beginning. The incomplete journey > presumably remains completable indefinitely, without time limit?
Why wouldn't there be a time limit? My interpretation is that your next journey after buying an OEP will be charged as a PAYG journey, with a £4 (or whatever) entry fee, and 2-ish hours to complete it. If you don't touch out within the time you get lumped with the entry fee rather than paying the proper fare.
On 29 Oct, 16:38, Mr Thant <maha.thray.sithu.u.th...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 29 Oct, 14:09, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
> > Still doesn't seem like much if you frequently extend to an ungated > > station and only get charged at the beginning. The incomplete journey > > presumably remains completable indefinitely, without time limit?
> Why wouldn't there be a time limit? My interpretation is that your > next journey after buying an OEP will be charged as a PAYG journey, > with a £4 (or whatever) entry fee, and 2-ish hours to complete it. If > you don't touch out within the time you get lumped with the entry fee > rather than paying the proper fare.
> U
That's what I would have thought, but then it was suggested in Fig's message, quoting Paul's, that you can keep the OEP on your card (to avoid inconvenience) until you next touch out outside of your zones.
That would avoid having to know at the start of your journey that you needed it, and perhaps allow you to stick it on at a convenient time without queue ready for when you did need it.
But it would also negate the whole point, which is why my mind was boggling.
> On 29 Oct, 16:38, Mr Thant <maha.thray.sithu.u.th...@googlemail.com> > wrote: >> On 29 Oct, 14:09, MIG <googles...@doreenbird.co.uk> wrote:
>> > Still doesn't seem like much if you frequently extend to an ungated >> > station and only get charged at the beginning. The incomplete >> > journey >> > presumably remains completable indefinitely, without time limit?
>> Why wouldn't there be a time limit? My interpretation is that your >> next journey after buying an OEP will be charged as a PAYG journey, >> with a £4 (or whatever) entry fee, and 2-ish hours to complete it. If >> you don't touch out within the time you get lumped with the entry fee >> rather than paying the proper fare.
>> U
> That's what I would have thought, but then it was suggested in Fig's > message, quoting Paul's, that you can keep the OEP on your card (to > avoid inconvenience) until you next touch out outside of your zones.
> That would avoid having to know at the start of your journey that you > needed it, and perhaps allow you to stick it on at a convenient time > without queue ready for when you did need it.
> But it would also negate the whole point, which is why my mind was > boggling.
My understanding is if you touch in with an OEP on your card you will be deducted the £4 entry fee. If you touch out within your zones, you get the £4 back and the OEP remains on the card for the next journey. If you touch out outside your zones, you will be charged whatever the correct fare is. If you don't touch out at all, you will have an unresolved journey and will have lost the £4.
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:02:25 -0700 (PDT), Ganesh Sittampalam wrote: >> But if OEPs are free, at what point will a charge occur ?
>> And since they are free, why not get one or several as you pass a >> machine since they can hardly kick in unless you leave LT for NR and >> touch a validator ?
>With one loaded, you have to be careful to always touch out at ungated >stations, which isn't currently necessary when using a Travelcard.
No. You'll only have to touch out at ungated stations if you're using a PAYG extension to your Travelcard, as at present.
On 29 Oct, 23:17, asdf <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 05:02:25 -0700 (PDT), Ganesh Sittampalam wrote: > >> But if OEPs are free, at what point will a charge occur ?
> >> And since they are free, why not get one or several as you pass a > >> machine since they can hardly kick in unless you leave LT for NR and > >> touch a validator ?
> >With one loaded, you have to be careful to always touch out at ungated > >stations, which isn't currently necessary when using a Travelcard.
> No. You'll only have to touch out at ungated stations if you're using > a PAYG extension to your Travelcard, as at present.
It seems that what is being said is that once you've got the OEP, you've then got a unresolved journey bomb on your card even if your journey is entirely covered by your travelcard, so you do have to touch out.
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