Are there any specific instructions for photographers on the Underground? I was standing at the Baker Street station (Metropolitan line platform) and tried to make photo of the local junction (at the moment when train was passing it) - I was approached by two policemen and told to stop photography and delete existing photos (they even checked that the photos were deleted) as no photography allowed on the Underground anymore due to the threat of the terrorism.
Is it true?
P.S. I was standing in the location permitted for the passengers and photos without flash. Even more, I shot more then 10 stations during the week, and this is the first incident of the kind (even though in many locations I stood right next to station staff).
On Mar 9, 6:50 pm, "alex_t" <atereshche...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Are there any specific instructions for photographers on the > Underground? I was standing at the Baker Street station (Metropolitan > line platform) and tried to make photo of the local junction (at the > moment when train was passing it) - I was approached by two policemen > and told to stop photography and delete existing photos (they even > checked that the photos were deleted) as no photography allowed on the > Underground anymore due to the threat of the terrorism.
> Is it true?
> P.S. I was standing in the location permitted for the passengers and > photos without flash. Even more, I shot more then 10 stations during > the week, and this is the first incident of the kind (even though in > many locations I stood right next to station staff).
What they have told you is absolute nonsense! The only restrictions are that a tripod should not be used, you dont get too close to the platform edge and NEVER EVER EVER use the flash or those red lights they now have. They can momentarily "blind" the driver. You should have then asked the station supervisor if they minded. Did you get the Officers' details?
Next time, if your around photographing for a project or something, see the Station Supervisor.
> you have to apply in writing and pay for the privilege.
> And the FAQ specifically says ANYBODY wanting to take pictures must seek > prior permission.
Every time this subject has come up before it has been found that that link refers to commercial filming only. Happy snaps are allowed except flash and tripods are not permitted.
>> you have to apply in writing and pay for the privilege.
>> And the FAQ specifically says ANYBODY wanting to take pictures must seek >> prior permission.
>Every time this subject has come up before it has been found that that link >refers to commercial filming only. Happy snaps are allowed except flash and >tripods are not permitted.
Yes, I would have thought the same thing I(and have certainly taken photographs in the past without any incident).
However, the FAQ does seem to impose a blanket ban (or rather charging regime). Anyone know anything different that they can actually point to in written form? -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK
In message <4LadnaqnFYC9J2zYRVny...@bt.com>, Paul Scott <notvalidpmsc...@btinternet.com> writes
>Every time this subject has come up before it has been found that that link >refers to commercial filming only. Happy snaps are allowed except flash and >tripods are not permitted.
This gets even more interesting. When I delved deeper into
"It's not all underground either. Apart from the Circle line, all other lines thread their way through the City and go above ground into the countryside."
Where, pray, are the Victoria Line and Waterloo & City "go above ground into the countryside"?! -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK
> The only restrictions are that a tripod should not be used, you dont > get too close to the platform edge and NEVER EVER EVER use the flash > or those red lights they now have. They can momentarily "blind" the > driver.
I was about two meters away from the platform (and there was a barrier at the edge of the platform), the flash was disabled and no red lights at all (I specifically check for this before filming), and of course no tripod.
> You should have then asked the station supervisor if they minded.
I was making photos for myself (well, I will publish most of them on my homepage and some at Wikipedia) - I do not want to inconvenience LU staff with my hobby...
> Did you get the Officers' details?
Nope, I was quite scared actually. Not to mention that this was near large group of passengers waiting for the train - I got some funny looks later in the train.
> Next time, if your around photographing for a project or something, > see the Station Supervisor.
>>Every time this subject has come up before it has been found that that >>link >>refers to commercial filming only. Happy snaps are allowed except flash >>and >>tripods are not permitted.
> Yes, I would have thought the same thing I(and have certainly taken > photographs in the past without any incident).
> However, the FAQ does seem to impose a blanket ban (or rather charging > regime). Anyone know anything different that they can actually point to > in written form?
If you go into 'Ask Tube' and search on the word 'photography', it reads as follows:
Q. Do I need permission to film or take photographs on the tube?
A. You may take personal photographs on the Tube, but you MUST NOT use flash.
For information on filming or taking professional photographs on the tube, please [click here]
(the link takes you to the commercial filming section linked earlier) I think its about time somone much more interested in photography than me tried to get them to change the website.
On 9 Mar 2007 10:50:37 -0800, "alex_t" <atereshche...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>Are there any specific instructions for photographers on the >Underground? I was standing at the Baker Street station (Metropolitan >line platform) and tried to make photo of the local junction (at the >moment when train was passing it) - I was approached by two policemen >and told to stop photography and delete existing photos (they even >checked that the photos were deleted) as no photography allowed on the >Underground anymore due to the threat of the terrorism.
>Is it true?
No it is not true. There would be posters and announcements to advise people if it was. The only posters and announcements relate to not using flash photography due to the blinding effect it can have on drivers.
I sometimes cover for my boss at security meetings and a ban on photography has never been mentioned at all.
The police also have no right whatsoever to demand that you delete photographs from your camera. I despair of this sort of thing. Were they "real" police or "plastic" community support officers? I've had a run in with the latter at Victoria Bus Station and ended up advising them that they call Tim O'Toole to verify that I was a senior manager at LU. At that point they gave up hassling me.
The main issue is to check with the station supervisor so they know you are there and can provide any requisite local knowledge.
I recently took some photos on the Tyne and Wear Metro and I had to sign an indemnity waiver and advise where I would be on the system. Now I personally think that is completely over the top but nonetheless I complied with the "rules" even though they were NOT on the Nexus website. It took about three e-mails in the space of a few hours and everything was sorted. I had no problems on the day and no one batted an eyelid or said anything.
Here is the official legal position
Click on the like to the pdf file via UK Photographers Rights.
>P.S. I was standing in the location permitted for the passengers and >photos without flash. Even more, I shot more then 10 stations during >the week, and this is the first incident of the kind (even though in >many locations I stood right next to station staff).
Baker St is a HQ building so I can perhaps understand a slightly more "intense" view as to photography but even so. Security is important but it is not there to create needless restrictions or paranoia or else the terrorists have won IMO.
> you have to apply in writing and pay for the privilege.
When you have a look at the actual form - it is called "Commercial filming & photography permit request" (note - *commercial*). I suppose this is not for non-commercial/private type of photography (which is my case)...
> On 9 Mar 2007 10:50:37 -0800, "alex_t" <atereshche...@googlemail.com> > wrote:
>>Are there any specific instructions for photographers on the >>Underground? I was standing at the Baker Street station (Metropolitan >>line platform) and tried to make photo of the local junction (at the >>moment when train was passing it) - I was approached by two policemen >>and told to stop photography and delete existing photos (they even >>checked that the photos were deleted) as no photography allowed on the >>Underground anymore due to the threat of the terrorism.
>>Is it true?
> No it is not true. There would be posters and announcements to advise > people if it was. The only posters and announcements relate to not using > flash photography due to the blinding effect it can have on drivers.
> I sometimes cover for my boss at security meetings and a ban on > photography has never been mentioned at all.
> The police also have no right whatsoever to demand that you delete > photographs from your camera. I despair of this sort of thing. Were they > "real" police or "plastic" community support officers? I've had a run > in with the latter at Victoria Bus Station and ended up advising them > that they call Tim O'Toole to verify that I was a senior manager at LU. > At that point they gave up hassling me.
> The main issue is to check with the station supervisor so they know you > are there and can provide any requisite local knowledge.
> I recently took some photos on the Tyne and Wear Metro and I had to sign > an indemnity waiver and advise where I would be on the system. Now I > personally think that is completely over the top but nonetheless I > complied with the "rules" even though they were NOT on the Nexus > website. It took about three e-mails in the space of a few hours and > everything was sorted. I had no problems on the day and no one batted an > eyelid or said anything.
> Here is the official legal position
> Click on the like to the pdf file via UK Photographers Rights.
>>P.S. I was standing in the location permitted for the passengers and >>photos without flash. Even more, I shot more then 10 stations during >>the week, and this is the first incident of the kind (even though in >>many locations I stood right next to station staff).
> Baker St is a HQ building so I can perhaps understand a slightly more > "intense" view as to photography but even so. Security is important but > it is not there to create needless restrictions or paranoia or else the > terrorists have won IMO.
Paul, I've just posted a quote from the 'ask tube' part of the website, which differentiates between private and commercial photography, and I think the problem is that its only the rules for commercial photography that anyone normally finds. I should have thought the answer was a fairly straightforward amendment to the page linked to from the 'arts' section.
>>>Are there any specific instructions for photographers on the >>>Underground? I was standing at the Baker Street station (Metropolitan >>>line platform) and tried to make photo of the local junction (at the >>>moment when train was passing it) - I was approached by two policemen >>>and told to stop photography and delete existing photos (they even >>>checked that the photos were deleted) as no photography allowed on the >>>Underground anymore due to the threat of the terrorism.
[snip]
>Paul, I've just posted a quote from the 'ask tube' part of the website, >which differentiates between private and commercial photography, and I think >the problem is that its only the rules for commercial photography that >anyone normally finds. I should have thought the answer was a fairly >straightforward amendment to the page linked to from the 'arts' section.
Sure - all this makes the action of the "police" even more bizarre and incorrect. If I was the OP I would make a complaint given that he was doing nothing wrong *at all* and that the police were acting outside of their authority. This sort of crap makes me very cross and it does nothing to build proper and effective relationships between LU and people who have a genuine interest in the system and its workings. We should not be alienating people who are naturally inclined to be supporters of the business.
On Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:06:46 +0000, Ian Jelf wrote: >I found the quote:
>"It's not all underground either. Apart from the Circle line, all other >lines thread their way through the City and go above ground into the >countryside."
>Where, pray, are the Victoria Line and Waterloo & City "go above ground >into the countryside"?!
The Vic (along with several others) doesn't go through the City, either.
> On 9 Mar 2007 10:50:37 -0800, "alex_t" <atereshche...@googlemail.com> > wrote:
> >Are there any specific instructions for photographers on the > >Underground? I was standing at the Baker Street station (Metropolitan > >line platform) and tried to make photo of the local junction (at the > >moment when train was passing it) - I was approached by two policemen > >and told to stop photography and delete existing photos (they even > >checked that the photos were deleted) as no photography allowed on the > >Underground anymore due to the threat of the terrorism.
> >Is it true?
> No it is not true. There would be posters and announcements to advise > people if it was. The only posters and announcements relate to not using > flash photography due to the blinding effect it can have on drivers.
> I sometimes cover for my boss at security meetings and a ban on > photography has never been mentioned at all.
> The police also have no right whatsoever to demand that you delete > photographs from your camera. I despair of this sort of thing. Were they > "real" police or "plastic" community support officers? I've had a run > in with the latter at Victoria Bus Station and ended up advising them > that they call Tim O'Toole to verify that I was a senior manager at LU. > At that point they gave up hassling me.
> The main issue is to check with the station supervisor so they know you > are there and can provide any requisite local knowledge.
> I recently took some photos on the Tyne and Wear Metro and I had to sign > an indemnity waiver and advise where I would be on the system. Now I > personally think that is completely over the top but nonetheless I > complied with the "rules" even though they were NOT on the Nexus > website. It took about three e-mails in the space of a few hours and > everything was sorted. I had no problems on the day and no one batted an > eyelid or said anything.
> Here is the official legal position
> Click on the like to the pdf file via UK Photographers Rights.
> >P.S. I was standing in the location permitted for the passengers and > >photos without flash. Even more, I shot more then 10 stations during > >the week, and this is the first incident of the kind (even though in > >many locations I stood right next to station staff).
> Baker St is a HQ building so I can perhaps understand a slightly more > "intense" view as to photography but even so. Security is important but > it is not there to create needless restrictions or paranoia or else the > terrorists have won IMO.
> -- > Paul C
> Admits to working for London Underground!
At this same station the other day there was a woman dressed head to toe in a black bin liner having her photo taken. They had signed in. But as hey kept ignoring the requests to stop taking photos, they were asked to leave!
I use the same entrance to the Divisional HeadQuarters as the BTP, but have never been challenged by the despite wearing a hood!
All I can say is that if your taking photos and it is important to you, just let the Supervisor know when you get there as it will reduce any problems that might then arise, beit from station staff or the BTP (Beers, Teas & Pies).
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:06:46 +0000, Ian Jelf wrote:
>> I found the quote:
>> "It's not all underground either. Apart from the Circle line, all >> other lines thread their way through the City and go above ground >> into the countryside."
>> Where, pray, are the Victoria Line and Waterloo & City "go above >> ground into the countryside"?! > The Vic (along with several others) doesn't go through the City, > either.
> The police also have no right whatsoever to demand that you delete > photographs from your camera.
The police have the right to do what the hell they like. Welcome to New Labour's Britain!
> I recently took some photos on the Tyne and Wear Metro and I had to > sign an indemnity waiver and advise where I would be on the system. > Now I personally think that is completely over the top but > nonetheless I complied with the "rules" even though they were NOT on > the Nexus website. It took about three e-mails in the space of a few > hours and everything was sorted. I had no problems on the day and no > one batted an eyelid or said anything.
Any suicide bomber could do the same thing, so there is no point in them demanding that people do that.
> Security is important > but it is not there to create needless restrictions or paranoia or > else the terrorists have won IMO.
> If you go into 'Ask Tube' and search on the word 'photography', it reads as > follows:
> Q. Do I need permission to film or take photographs on the tube?
> A. You may take personal photographs on the Tube, but you MUST NOT use > flash.
> For information on filming or taking professional photographs on the tube, > please [click here]
> (the link takes you to the commercial filming section linked earlier) I > think its about time somone much more interested in photography than me > tried to get them to change the website.
> Paul
Still, if this very indirect way of informing is the level of clarity the HQ offers, I am not surprised that Underground staff may be unsure and overreact. I was recently asked by a station staff member for a written permission when I photographed the *outside* of a surface station building, *from the public road*. He claimed no London Underground objects may be photographed without such a permission. When I doubted his statement, he withdrew into his office and said he would call the police. He never did. The location: Roding Valley... Rudi
In message <1173466237.334360.253...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>, alex_t <atereshche...@googlemail.com> writes
I'm using this to answer two points in this thread.
>Are there any specific instructions for photographers on the >Underground? I was standing at the Baker Street station (Metropolitan >line platform) and tried to make photo of the local junction (at the >moment when train was passing it) - I was approached by two policemen >and told to stop photography and delete existing photos (they even >checked that the photos were deleted) as no photography allowed on the >Underground anymore due to the threat of the terrorism.
>Is it true?
>P.S. I was standing in the location permitted for the passengers and >photos without flash. Even more, I shot more then 10 stations during >the week, and this is the first incident of the kind (even though in >many locations I stood right next to station staff).
You may wish to refer them to the Station Staff who as far as I know are actually in charge of the station. I would have also asked them to provide evidence of this 'rule'.
As has been already stated, they have no authority to force you to delete the pictures - only a court can do that.
I note in another message, someone being taken to task by station staff about photography on London Underground stations. Well, you should advise them to go and have a look up in their Working Reference Manual, particularly part 10 of rule Sa109 which states:
>10. Photography on stations >10.1 Passengers can take photographs with small cameras for private >purposes, provided > flashlights and/or tripods are not used > no obstruction or inconvenience is caused to staff and/or passengers. >10.2 Representatives of the media, press or photographic agencies and >film companies, and other persons taking photographs for commercial >purposes must first get permission from the Press Officer. See section >13 of this document.
This is taken from the 2002 WRM, but I'm fairly sure it's not been amended since. -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email)
> > On Fri, 9 Mar 2007 20:06:46 +0000, Ian Jelf wrote:
> >> I found the quote:
> >> "It's not all underground either. Apart from the Circle line, all > >> other lines thread their way through the City and go above ground > >> into the countryside."
> >> Where, pray, are the Victoria Line and Waterloo & City "go above > >> ground into the countryside"?! > > The Vic (along with several others) doesn't go through the City, > > either.
alex_t wrote: > Are there any specific instructions for photographers on the > Underground? I was standing at the Baker Street station (Metropolitan > line platform) and tried to make photo of the local junction (at the > moment when train was passing it) - I was approached by two policemen > and told to stop photography and delete existing photos (they even > checked that the photos were deleted) as no photography allowed on the > Underground anymore due to the threat of the terrorism.
Visitors from the NYPD, perhaps? -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA
<j...@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Paul Corfield wrote:
> > The police also have no right whatsoever to demand that you delete > > photographs from your camera.
> The police have the right to do what the hell they like. Welcome to New > Labour's Britain!
I know you're not being wholly serious, but this isn't exactly the case.
Unfortunately, the OP doesn't seem to have taken down enough details (but CCTV might fill some gaps with this being a tube station), but had he done so, he should fire off a letter stating:
1) the date and approximate time of the incident 2) the names and numbers of the policemen who exceeded their authority 3) a description of how they exceeded their authority (basically, what happened) 4) the fact that damage was caused as a result of the policemen's actions (deletions are damage) 5) names and addresses of any witnesses 6) permission to advise any involved parties of the existence and content of your letter (bloody DPA!)
Then send it off to:
The Independent Police Complaints Commission, 90, High Holborn, LONDON WC1V 6BH.
It would also be advisable to send a CC to:
Chief Constable I. Johnston, British Transport Police, 25, Camden Road, LONDON NW1 9LN.
It's tempting to add CCs to the BBC, the Times, and the Evening Standard, but that's probably overkill.
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