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Gareth McCaughan  
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 More options 9 Apr 2008, 02:38
Newsgroups: uk.religion.christian
From: Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.McCaug...@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 02:38:09 +0100
Local: Wed 9 Apr 2008 02:38
Subject: Re: BBC's 'The Passion'

"Giles" wrote:
> 27 stumbling blocks for this atheist in accepting the Christian belief
> that Jesus was God and ascended to heaven: "The following world
> saviors and "sons of God," were crucified or executed and were
> resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven. They predate the so-
> called Jesus Christ." http://www.destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41935

> 1. Adad of Assyria
> 2. Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules") and Zeus of Greece
> 3. Alcides of Thebes
> 4. Attis of Phrygia
> 5. Baal of Phoenicia
> 6. Bali of Afghanistan
> 7. Beddru of Japan
> 8. Buddha of India
> 9. Crite of Chaldea
> 10. Deva Tat of Siam
> 11. Hesus of the Druids
> 11. Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt, whose long-haired, bearded
> appearance was adopted for the Christ character
> 12. Indra of Tibet/India
> 13. Jao of Nepal
> 14. Krishna of India
> 15. Mikado of the Sintoos
> 16. Mithra of Persia
> 17. Odin of the Scandinavians
> 18. Prometheus of Caucasus/Greece
> 19. Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
> 20. Salivahana of Bermuda
> 21. Tammuz of Syria (who was, in a typical mythmaking move, later
> turned into the disciple Thomas
> 22. Thor of the Gauls
> 23. Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
> 24. Wittoba of the Bilingonese
> 25. Xamolxis of Thrace
> 26. Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia
> 27. Zoar of the Bonz

... at which point various people started asking for
evidence that they have in fact been believed to be
saviours or "sons of God" who were executed, returned
to life, and ascended into heaven. No one's offered
either any such evidence or a concrete refutation of
the claim, so I thought I'd take a look.

I used the following oh-so-scientific methodology:
look each one up in Wikipedia, see whether the
article indicates whether they were (1) a saviour
or son of God or godman or something of the kind,
(2) killed or crucified, (3) resurrected or reborn
or reincarnated, and/or (4) taken up into heaven.
In each case I've put "Y" or "N" if the Wikipedia
page makes it reasonably clear, or "?" if it doesn't.
In general a "?" is likely to mean a no, since you'd
think such things would get mentioned. I've generally
given the benefit of the doubt when there is much.

In most cases I looked further than Wikipedia. In some
cases I couldn't find anything at all (or, sometimes,
nothing except pointers to this list and maybe some
pages saying "I looked for this and couldn't find anything");
in such cases I've put "-" in each column.

It's not clear what constitutes being a "world saviour
or son of God". I've taken it to mean any of the
following:
  - god who becomes incarnate (avatars count)
  - person who gets deified
  - demigod or other god/human hybrid
  - person or god who fixes something terribly
    broken about the world
  - person who founds a religion, is its chief
    prophet, etc.
Merely being a god doesn't count.

The columns of the table below are for those four
things in the order I gave, followed by the name,
followed in some instances by my comments, or rather
by pointers to them.

N ? ? ? Adad
Y Y ? ? Adonis [1]
- - - - Alcides [2,23]
N N N N Apollo
Y Y Y N Attis [3]
? ? ? ? Baal [4]
- - - - Bali [2]
- - - - Beddru [2]
Y N Y Y Buddha [5]
- - - - Crite [2]
- - - - Deva Tat [6]
Y Y N Y Heracles [24]
N N N N Hesus [7]
N N N N Horus [8]
N N N N Indra
- - - - Jao [2]
Y ? N N Krishna [9]
- - - - Mikado [2,10]
N N N N Mithra [11]
? ? ? ? Mithra [12]
N Y N N Odin [13]
? Y Y ? Osiris/Serapis [14]
Y N N N Prometheus
N N N N Quetzalcoatl [15]
- - - - Salivahana [2,16]
N Y Y N Tammuz [17]
- - - - Thor [2,18]
- - - - Universal Monarch of the Sibyls [2,19]
N ? ? ? Wittoba [2,20]
Y N ? N Xamolxis [21]
Y ? N N Zarathustra/Zoroaster [22]
- - - - Zoar [2]

[1] It seems to be usual to describe Adonis as a god
    who dies and is reborn, but none of the more detailed
    descriptions I can find of what was believed about
    Adonis actually includes rebirth, let alone ascension.
    Ovid's version, e.g., ends with his death.

[2] I think these come from Kersey Graves's notoriously
    unreliable "The world's sixteen crucified saviours".

[3] Being reborn as a pine tree seems to me a pretty far
    cry from Christian-style resurrection, but I'm being
    generous here.

[4] "Baal" just means "lord" and can refer to any number
    of gods. Maybe one of them was supposed to have died
    and been resurrected; who knows?

[5] It feels like I'm being *absurdly* generous here.
    Sure, some versions of Buddhism say that there have
    been multiple incarnations of the Buddha, but
    (a) they also say that just about *everyone* gets
    reincarnated, and (b) they recard getting reincarnated
    as something to *avoid*. If the Buddha does it it's
    an act of generosity, more akin to the crucifixion
    (or at least the incarnation) than to the resurrection.

[6] Also from Graves. There's some reason to think that
    "Deva Tat of Siam" = Buddha; sorry, you don't get to
    count the same one twice just because he has different
    names in different places. If not, I've no idea who
    or what s/he might be.

[7] Gaulish god about whom almost nothing is known (there
    are a couple of statues and one line in Lucan). No
    evidence of incarnation, death, rebirth, or ascension.

[8] The Horus/Jesus parallels appear to have been made up
    by a chap called Massey in the 19th century.

[9] Krishna did die (avatars generally do, I think); it
    seems that some traditions reckon his death an accident,
    and some blame it on a curse put on him.

[10] I suspect that "Sintoos" is a garbled form of "Shinto"
    and this is some sort of reference to the divine Emperor
    of Japan. But, as always with Kersey Graves, who can
    tell?

[11] If the Zoroastrian deity Mithra is really intended.

[12] If Mithras, of the Roman mystery religion, is intended.

[13] I'm being pretty generous here. Odin was hung from Yggdrasil
    for a while, by his own spear, but he didn't die and wasn't
    expected to, and it wasn't a punishment, and his purpose was
    the selfish one of gaining wisdom and power. Oh, and it's
    at least possible that this story postdates that of the
    crucifixion.

[14] In one version: Originally human; killed, resurrected
    temporarily, died again, and then deified by the gods.
    But the more details of that you fill in, the less
    Jesus-like it gets. "Serapis" was basically just another
    name for Osiris, lightly retouched for Greek use.

[15] However, Quetzalcoatl is sometimes alleged to have
    been born of a virgin.

[16] There's a legendary Indian hero called Shalivahana.
    No godlike attributes so far as I know.

[17] It seems to be a bit controversial whether Tammuz
    was regarded as having been reborn. I'm being generous,
    as usual. I've no idea where whoever-it-is gets the
    idea that Tammuz "turned into the disciple Thomas".

[18] Thor of the *Gauls*? WTF? I'm assuming this isn't
    referring to the Norse god; if it is, replace all
    the "-" with "N".

[19] As so often with Kersey Graves, all I can say is
    "wtf?".

[20] Wittoba = Vithoba = Vitthala, a manifestation of
    Krishna, an avatar of Vishnu. It must be awfully
    complicated being a Hindu. At least, I think that's
    who's meant here; or maybe Kersey Graves was just
    making stuff up again. I have no idea who the
    Bilingonese might be.

[21] Zamolxis, actually. According to some sources he
    disappeared for a while and was thought dead, and
    on his return was thought to have returned from
    death.

[22] Zoroaster gets a "Y" in the first column only because
    he founded a religion; he gets a "?" in the second only
    because according to some accounts he was murdered.
    He doesn't seem to have been regarded as anything
    more than a prophet. I have only just discovered that
    Sarastro (in Mozart's "The magic flute") is meant to
    be Zoroaster.

[23] Alcides appears to be another name for Heracles,
    who has his own entry.

[24] "Ascension" is a bit of a stretch here, but he was
    deified.

I make that a grand total of zero out of 31 (or 32
if you count both versions of Mithras) with all the
claimed attributes and conclude that, yes, someone
has been making things up. Mostly Kersey Graves.

It seems to me quite possible that bits of the Jesus
story have been borrowed from other religions, but this
blunderbuss throw-everything-and-hope-some-sticks list
doesn't make much of a case.

--
Gareth McCaughan
.sig under construc


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