>> Who knows whether or not the marriage was consummated so early? Many >> hadith assume it was, but these may well be theological rather than >> historical in intent.
> But what theological intent could a story about the age of the Prophet's > wife possibly have?
I'd have to be a Muslim scholar to answer that, and I'm not! :-) You might ask what theological intent could there be in Matthew's references to magi from the east. That's not a difficult one for a biblical scholar (reference to OT prophecy and likening Jesus to Solomon), but a non-scholar might well ask in the way you have.
>> As happens so often with Christianity, the polemics tend to be based >> on a literalistic reading of what are probably and primarily >> theological texts.
> But it seems to me that Islam is the most literal-minded of religions, > and also perhaps the most accommodating of male sexuality.
Yes, to both. But not all Muslims are literalist. And it would not be the first time that a parable came to be read literally by later students. It happens all the time with us: eg the clearly fictional stories of Jonah, and Esther.
--
Revd. Eric Potts
"Faith, hope and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love."
>> Of course I cannot say whether you are lying, or not. It is a >> possibility.
> Indeed so, I have no opinion about slide trombones v. valve trombones. > It is possible that I'm lying when I wrote that but for some reason (I'm > willing to bet) you won't harass me over that.
I'm sure that those with some knowledge of the issue will have comments to make in favour or against, or indeed they may remain neutral. All imply a view of sorts. For me, a trombone isn't a trombone without the glissando. What do you think?
> Anyhow, may I draw your attention to a typo? When you wrote 'I cannot > say whether you are lying, or not', I think you meant 'I don't have the > guts to accuse you of lying'.
This isn't the place for speculative mud-slinging. I wrote precisely what I meant - it is a possibility that you are being somewhat reticent with the truth, just as it is a possibility that you are genuinely completely unmoved by all aspects of paedophilia* and have absolutely "no view" on anything related to this subject.
* where an adult has and/or acts on a sexual preference for prepubescent children.
loiner2003 wrote: > Alwyn wrote: >> But what theological intent could a story about the age of the >> Prophet's wife possibly have?
> I'd have to be a Muslim scholar to answer that, and I'm not! :-) > You might ask what theological intent could there be in Matthew's > references to magi from the east. That's not a difficult one for a > biblical scholar (reference to OT prophecy and likening Jesus to > Solomon), but a non-scholar might well ask in the way you have.
Oh, but there is more from the Ahadith:
'When I [Jabir bin 'Abdullah] got married, Allah's Apostle [Mohammad] said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for young virgins and fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?"'
Try as one might, one can hardly discern elevated theological content in that kind of thing!
On 2009-11-03, loiner2003 wrote: > Alwyn wrote: >> loiner2003 wrote: >> According to Wikipedia, 'hit parade' is not as dated as all that:
>> 'The term is still used, as in the title of the popular magazine, Hit >> Parader and the Canadian record label Hit Parade Records. The British >> indie band The Hit Parade has taken its name from the US TV show.' >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hit_parade>
> There, you see, I'm so old that I'm too young to be up to date! :-)
"Too Old to Rock 'n' Roll, Too Young to Die"
-- Some say the world will end in fire; some say in segfaults. [XKCD 312]
>>> Of course I cannot say whether you are lying, or not. It is a >>> possibility.
>> Indeed so, I have no opinion about slide trombones v. valve trombones. >> It is possible that I'm lying when I wrote that but for some reason (I'm >> willing to bet) you won't harass me over that.
> I'm sure that those with some knowledge of the issue will have comments to > make in favour or against, or indeed they may remain neutral. All imply a > view of sorts. For me, a trombone isn't a trombone without the glissando. > What do you think?
I thought you might have trouble responding to that one. Well, I least I won the bet. What was it for? An honest reply?
>> Anyhow, may I draw your attention to a typo? When you wrote 'I cannot >> say whether you are lying, or not', I think you meant 'I don't have the >> guts to accuse you of lying'.
> This isn't the place for speculative mud-slinging. I wrote precisely what > I meant - it is a possibility that you are being somewhat reticent with > the truth, just as it is a possibility that you are genuinely completely > unmoved by all aspects of paedophilia* and have absolutely "no view" on > anything related to this subject.
> * where an adult has and/or acts on a sexual preference for prepubescent > children.
Alwyn wrote: > Oh, but there is more from the Ahadith:
> 'When I [Jabir bin 'Abdullah] got married, Allah's Apostle [Mohammad] > said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have > married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for young > virgins and fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why > didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she > with you?"'
> Try as one might, one can hardly discern elevated theological content in > that kind of thing!
Most of these stories come from Bukhari, which is in truth recognised by Sunni Muslims as a major source of hadith. However Bukhari's collection dates from at least two centuries after the prophet's life.
One of the problems, at least as a Christian scholar might see it, is that there is so far very little in the way of the kind of scholarly critical studies that have been so powerful in biblical study in the last century and a half. In the second half of the twentieth century, for example, the great Jewish scholar Rabbi Jacob Neusner did an encyclopaedic study of the Talmud, especially the Mishnah, and in the process showed how much of what is written there is later reconstruction, even where it purports to be evidence of practice and teaching in an earlier period. We really need someone to do the same for the Hadith, and indeed for the Quran itself.
Thus I want to ask - but cannot answer - how far is the stuff in Bukhari actually a fair representation of the ideas of the prophet and hgos contemporaries, and how far is it the product of subsequent reflection and development, in a differing cultural climate (eg one of Muslim dominance, in contrast to the situation in the prophet's day).
The provenance and intention of this site is not clear.
I am not saying that the "scandalous" interpretation may not be true. It could be. But it is as risky to assume that on the basis of hadith as it is to assume that the Pharisees in Jesus' day acted as the Talmud claims they acted; or that Jesus actually walked on water because later gospel tradition says he did.
--
Revd. Eric Potts
"Faith, hope and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love."
> I am not saying that the "scandalous" interpretation may not be true. It > could be. But it is as risky to assume that on the basis of hadith as it > is to assume that the Pharisees in Jesus' day acted as the Talmud claims > they acted; or that Jesus actually walked on water because later gospel > tradition says he did.
Personally, I am far more interested in how the average Muslim perceives his faith than in speculations on what the historical Muhammad might have been like. If I were such a Muslim, I would say that what was good enough for the Prophet (pbuh) is good enough for me.
In message <7lahl3F3clig...@mid.individual.net> loiner2003 <loiner2...@methodistchristian.co.uk> wrote:
> Who knows whether or not the marriage was consummated so early?
Referring again to the Yemeni case to which I alluded in an earlier post, one of those involved declared that a pre-puberty girl would be used "as a boy" until she had reached puberty, after which she would be used in the "normal" way.
Somehow I doubt that makes the whole business any more acceptable.
In message <KfQHm.1188$Ym4...@text.news.virginmedia.com> Alwyn <al...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm sure you're aware that Islamic tradition has it that Muhammad > married his favourite wife Ayisha when whe was six and consummated the > marriage three years later. This does not seem to be much of an > embarrassment to modern Muslims, so I presume it fits within their moral > code, though the law of the land may prevent them emulating the Prophet > in this respect.
Well, my sister (adopted) was under 12 when she was married to a man in his 60s, so Muslims clearly don't have any problem with young marriage. (There was also the case of those British girls carted off to the Yemen by their father and married off; if I remember rightly, one of them was only about nine or ten.)
We bought my sister out of the marriage (that was when we adopted her) and I believe that such marriage is far too young, but it goes on all the time, so perhaps I don't view it with the horror that other British people might.
In message <4AF04B87.FF1C9...@tesco.net> Frederick Williams <frederick.willia...@tesco.net> wrote:
> Are you the only person writing sense in this thread? Quickly checks. > No, someone else is, but to name names would be invidious. Giggle.
There appears to be an outbreak of sense recently. Did anyone notice the film clip of a BBC journalist flooring a yob who was pestering him? Almost immediately afterwards a police van arrived and - note this - arrested the yob instead of the journalist.
I suspect the policeman of being drunk or something. It is not normal police behaviour to arrest the criminal when there's a perfectly inoffensive victim they can arrest instead.
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