So its old hat and as boring as hell and been done to death a billion times.....so what? Does God love the substance abuser one wonders? After all we are all in agreement that nobody can help the substance abuser...end of. They are already doomed. And after all God only helps them that helps themselves....and God help you if you help yourself to mine.
So since God only helps those that help themselves....one wonders where this whole theory of grace comes from? After all if the substance abuser wont help themselves then its certain that God wont. And if that is true how does anyone get saved. And indeed why do we need a God anyway....as we are all now saved by our own efforts. After all we all decided to help ourselves.....and so we got saved, i guess by our own efforts. So how does a substance abuser get sober enough to make a rational decision to make a change?
In fact how does any human being make a rational decision to step out of denial and make a rational decision for Jesus Christ? The way most people are talking these days we all make neat rational decisions to accept Jesus Christ and then read the Bible and follow its teachings....all without the help of God. Which is all very well for those who can make such rational decisions....but what about those who cannot?
Grace would reach down to the substance abusers and give them the grace to make the decision to change. But hold on a dargone minute...whtever happended to freedom of choice? Grace is then over riding the sovereign freedom of the individual...even if it is for their own good. And then even prayers are over riding the free will of the individual. ~Suppose i pray and ask God to help so and so get saved and overcome their substance abuse...surely that is asking God to over ride that persons free will. Which God is not going to do. The only prayer that God is going to answer is the substance abusers own prayer....which of course they are never going to pray. How could they? They are in complete denial.
So where is the answer?
I guess its time to do the work of Jesus and walk by on the other side.
> So its old hat and as boring as hell and been done to death a billion > times.....so what? Does God love the substance abuser one wonders? After > all we are all in agreement that nobody can help the substance > abuser...end of. They are already doomed. And after all God only helps > them that helps themselves....and God help you if you help yourself to > mine.
> So since God only helps those that help themselves....one wonders where > this whole theory of grace comes from? After all if the substance abuser > wont help themselves then its certain that God wont. And if that is true > how does anyone get saved. And indeed why do we need a God anyway....as we > are all now saved by our own efforts. After all we all decided to help > ourselves.....and so we got saved, i guess by our own efforts. So how > does a substance abuser get sober enough to make a rational decision to > make a change?
> In fact how does any human being make a rational decision to step out of > denial and make a rational decision for Jesus Christ? The way most people > are talking these days we all make neat rational decisions to accept Jesus > Christ and then read the Bible and follow its teachings....all without the > help of God. Which is all very well for those who can make such rational > decisions....but what about those who cannot?
> Grace would reach down to the substance abusers and give them the grace to > make the decision to change. But hold on a dargone minute...whtever > happended to freedom of choice? Grace is then over riding the sovereign > freedom of the individual...even if it is for their own good. And then > even prayers are over riding the free will of the individual. ~Suppose i > pray and ask God to help so and so get saved and overcome their substance > abuse...surely that is asking God to over ride that persons free will. > Which God is not going to do. The only prayer that God is going to answer > is the substance abusers own prayer....which of course they are never > going to pray. How could they? They are in complete denial.
> So where is the answer?
> I guess its time to do the work of Jesus and walk by on the other side.
I wonder why this post of yours had no response from the Christians here. I thought it was one of the more interesting ones. These are questions, among others, that lead some to think that a benevolent god is extremely unlikely. And they are questions that, when Christians do try to answer, usually lead to what are wishy-washy, contrived and improbable explanations, imho.
>"Hermeneutika" <hermeneutika...@ntlworld.com (nospam)> a écrit dans le >message de news: nxoIm.1864$Ym4.__BEGIN_MASK_n#9g02mG7!__...__END_MASK_i?a63jfAD$z__@text.news.virginmedia.com... >> So its old hat and as boring as hell and been done to death a billion >> times.....so what? Does God love the substance abuser one wonders? After >> all we are all in agreement that nobody can help the substance >> abuser...end of. They are already doomed. And after all God only helps >> them that helps themselves....and God help you if you help yourself to >> mine.
>> So since God only helps those that help themselves....one wonders where >> this whole theory of grace comes from? After all if the substance abuser >> wont help themselves then its certain that God wont. And if that is true >> how does anyone get saved. And indeed why do we need a God anyway....as we >> are all now saved by our own efforts. After all we all decided to help >> ourselves.....and so we got saved, i guess by our own efforts. So how >> does a substance abuser get sober enough to make a rational decision to >> make a change?
>> In fact how does any human being make a rational decision to step out of >> denial and make a rational decision for Jesus Christ? The way most people >> are talking these days we all make neat rational decisions to accept Jesus >> Christ and then read the Bible and follow its teachings....all without the >> help of God. Which is all very well for those who can make such rational >> decisions....but what about those who cannot?
>> Grace would reach down to the substance abusers and give them the grace to >> make the decision to change. But hold on a dargone minute...whtever >> happended to freedom of choice? Grace is then over riding the sovereign >> freedom of the individual...even if it is for their own good. And then >> even prayers are over riding the free will of the individual. ~Suppose i >> pray and ask God to help so and so get saved and overcome their substance >> abuse...surely that is asking God to over ride that persons free will. >> Which God is not going to do. The only prayer that God is going to answer >> is the substance abusers own prayer....which of course they are never >> going to pray. How could they? They are in complete denial.
>> So where is the answer?
>> I guess its time to do the work of Jesus and walk by on the other side
>I wonder why this post of yours had no response from the Christians here I >thought it was one of the more interesting ones. These are questions, among >others, that lead some to think that a benevolent god is extremely unlikely. >And they are questions that, when Christians do try to answer, usually lead >to what are wishy-washy, contrived and improbable explanations, imho.
I saw the post and was going to answer. My immediate thought was Jackie Pullinger and the work she did in Hong Kong. I went online to look for a testimony of someone miraculously rescued from drugs. I must have got sidetracked so my apologies, I will answer it now.
<hermeneutika...@ntlworld.com (nospam)> wrote: >So its old hat and as boring as hell and been done to death a billion >times.....so what? Does God love the substance abuser one wonders? After all >we are all in agreement that nobody can help the substance abuser...end of. >They are already doomed. And after all God only helps them that helps >themselves....and God help you if you help yourself to mine.
I presume you are aware of the work Jackie Pullinger did (through Christ) amongst drug users in Hong Kong. Many came off drugs without withdrawal symptoms and found salvation in Jesus.
So in answer, yes, God does love the drug abuser.
>So since God only helps those that help themselves....one wonders where this >whole theory of grace comes from? After all if the substance abuser wont >help themselves then its certain that God wont. And if that is true how does >anyone get saved. And indeed why do we need a God anyway....as we are all >now saved by our own efforts. After all we all decided to help >ourselves.....and so we got saved, i guess by our own efforts. So how does >a substance abuser get sober enough to make a rational decision to make a >change?
How did you get saved Michael? When I got saved it was through God working in my life and revealing Jesus Christ to me. Without that revealment, I would still be lost.
>In fact how does any human being make a rational decision to step out of >denial and make a rational decision for Jesus Christ? The way most people >are talking these days we all make neat rational decisions to accept Jesus >Christ and then read the Bible and follow its teachings....all without the >help of God. Which is all very well for those who can make such rational >decisions....but what about those who cannot?
>Grace would reach down to the substance abusers and give them the grace to >make the decision to change. But hold on a dargone minute...whtever >happended to freedom of choice? Grace is then over riding the sovereign >freedom of the individual...even if it is for their own good. And then even >prayers are over riding the free will of the individual. ~Suppose i pray and >ask God to help so and so get saved and overcome their substance >abuse...surely that is asking God to over ride that persons free will. Which >God is not going to do. The only prayer that God is going to answer is the >substance abusers own prayer....which of course they are never going to >pray. How could they? They are in complete denial.
Only God can touch their hearts. I have read countless testimonys that tell of God's love for the individual. It is God's supernatural power that transforms our lives, through Jesus.
>So where is the answer?
At the cross at calvary. In the words of that famous hymn.
> So its old hat and as boring as hell and been done to death a billion > times.....so what? Does God love the substance abuser one wonders? After > all we are all in agreement that nobody can help the substance > abuser...end of. They are already doomed. And after all God only helps > them that helps themselves....and God help you if you help yourself to > mine.
> So since God only helps those that help themselves....one wonders where > this whole theory of grace comes from? After all if the substance abuser > wont help themselves then its certain that God wont. And if that is true > how does anyone get saved. And indeed why do we need a God anyway....as we > are all now saved by our own efforts. After all we all decided to help > ourselves.....and so we got saved, i guess by our own efforts. So how > does a substance abuser get sober enough to make a rational decision to > make a change?
> In fact how does any human being make a rational decision to step out of > denial and make a rational decision for Jesus Christ? The way most people > are talking these days we all make neat rational decisions to accept Jesus > Christ and then read the Bible and follow its teachings....all without the > help of God. Which is all very well for those who can make such rational > decisions....but what about those who cannot?
> Grace would reach down to the substance abusers and give them the grace to > make the decision to change. But hold on a dargone minute...whtever > happended to freedom of choice? Grace is then over riding the sovereign > freedom of the individual...even if it is for their own good. And then > even prayers are over riding the free will of the individual. ~Suppose i > pray and ask God to help so and so get saved and overcome their substance > abuse...surely that is asking God to over ride that persons free will. > Which God is not going to do. The only prayer that God is going to answer > is the substance abusers own prayer....which of course they are never > going to pray. How could they? They are in complete denial.
> So where is the answer?
> I guess its time to do the work of Jesus and walk by on the other side.
We most definitely do not all agree that no one can help drug addicts. A friend of mine was a long term heroin addict. He accepted Jesus in 1991 and came off heroin with no withdrawal symptoms and has been drug free ever since. A little research will show you that he is far from unique.
> "Hermeneutika" <hermeneutika...@ntlworld.com (nospam)> wrote in message > news:nxoIm.1864$Ym4.477@text.news.virginmedia.com... >> So its old hat and as boring as hell and been done to death a billion >> times.....so what? Does God love the substance abuser one wonders? After >> all we are all in agreement that nobody can help the substance >> abuser...end of. They are already doomed. And after all God only helps >> them that helps themselves....and God help you if you help yourself to >> mine.
>> So since God only helps those that help themselves....one wonders where >> this whole theory of grace comes from? After all if the substance abuser >> wont help themselves then its certain that God wont. And if that is true >> how does anyone get saved. And indeed why do we need a God anyway....as >> we are all now saved by our own efforts. After all we all decided to help >> ourselves.....and so we got saved, i guess by our own efforts. So how >> does a substance abuser get sober enough to make a rational decision to >> make a change?
>> In fact how does any human being make a rational decision to step out of >> denial and make a rational decision for Jesus Christ? The way most people >> are talking these days we all make neat rational decisions to accept >> Jesus Christ and then read the Bible and follow its teachings....all >> without the help of God. Which is all very well for those who can make >> such rational decisions....but what about those who cannot?
>> Grace would reach down to the substance abusers and give them the grace >> to make the decision to change. But hold on a dargone minute...whtever >> happended to freedom of choice? Grace is then over riding the sovereign >> freedom of the individual...even if it is for their own good. And then >> even prayers are over riding the free will of the individual. ~Suppose i >> pray and ask God to help so and so get saved and overcome their substance >> abuse...surely that is asking God to over ride that persons free will. >> Which God is not going to do. The only prayer that God is going to answer >> is the substance abusers own prayer....which of course they are never >> going to pray. How could they? They are in complete denial.
>> So where is the answer?
>> I guess its time to do the work of Jesus and walk by on the other side.
> We most definitely do not all agree that no one can help drug addicts. A > friend of mine was a long term heroin addict. He accepted Jesus in 1991 > and came off heroin with no withdrawal symptoms and has been drug free > ever since. A little research will show you that he is far from unique.
> Steve Hague
Many thanx for your replies. Maybe my question ought therefore to have been why did God not help the substance abuser in my life?I thank God for your friends testimony. But still wonder why God has not answered my prayers in this situation for her salvation and deliverance from drugs.
Hermeneutika <hermeneutika...@ntlworld.com> was inspired to say
>"Steve Hague" <steve.hag...@virgin.net> wrote in message news:scvJm.286 >8$Ym4.1...@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> We most definitely do not all agree that no one can help drug >>addicts. A friend of mine was a long term heroin addict. He accepted >>Jesus in 1991 and came off heroin with no withdrawal symptoms and has >>been drug free ever since. A little research will show you that he is >>far from unique.
>Many thanx for your replies. >Maybe my question ought therefore to have been why did God not help the >substance abuser in my life?I thank God for your friends testimony. But >still wonder why God has not answered my prayers in this situation for >her salvation and deliverance from drugs.
We all want to see people released from their addictions, just as we want to see people released from their crippling illnesses, and like Steve, I know of people who have been released by prayer from both.
My first reaction to your post (and I think I've said something similar before), is that your prayer and your compassion may not be enough if someone is determined to stay on drugs. It is certainly important[1] for them freely to accept Jesus, as Steve's friend did.
[1] I didn't say essential - I know someone who was freed from addiction through prayer and accepted Jesus afterwards.
However, more and more recently I have been aware that God doesn't necessarily grant us what we want - but can use us just as we are, in our weaknesses. We have to live in the real world, not some idealised world.
St Paul talking about his discussion with God!!:-
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. [2 Cor 12:9-10]
We have to do our work - offering compassion, hospitality, love, etc. because that's what we are here to do. The results are for God's glory. If we do this stuff for our own satisfaction, or to demonstrate to others, we are like the Pharisees.
I have many times prayed with or for someone, and thought "that's a waste of time"; ten, twenty years later, they've come to me and said "You won't remember this, Mike, but after you prayed, X happened and that changed my life!"
We never know, though it's human to *want to know*, what the results of our actions are. Even our sins can be used by God to bring good out of evil - but it probably helps if we repent!
Mike -- Michael J Davis
<>< "I give You all I have, and when I have nothing, I give You that nothing." St Therese of Lisieux <><
> Hermeneutika <hermeneutika...@ntlworld.com> was inspired to say
>>"Steve Hague" <steve.hag...@virgin.net> wrote in message news:scvJm.286 >>8$Ym4.1...@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>>> We most definitely do not all agree that no one can help drug >>>addicts. A friend of mine was a long term heroin addict. He accepted >>>Jesus in 1991 and came off heroin with no withdrawal symptoms and has >>>been drug free ever since. A little research will show you that he is >>>far from unique.
>>Many thanx for your replies. >>Maybe my question ought therefore to have been why did God not help the >>substance abuser in my life?I thank God for your friends testimony. But >>still wonder why God has not answered my prayers in this situation for >>her salvation and deliverance from drugs.
> We all want to see people released from their addictions, just as we > want to see people released from their crippling illnesses, and like > Steve, I know of people who have been released by prayer from both.
> My first reaction to your post (and I think I've said something similar > before), is that your prayer and your compassion may not be enough if > someone is determined to stay on drugs. It is certainly important[1] for > them freely to accept Jesus, as Steve's friend did.
> [1] I didn't say essential - I know someone who was freed from > addiction through prayer and accepted Jesus afterwards.
> However, more and more recently I have been aware that God doesn't > necessarily grant us what we want - but can use us just as we are, in > our weaknesses. We have to live in the real world, not some idealised > world.
> St Paul talking about his discussion with God!!:-
> But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power > is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the > more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest > on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, > in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For > when I am weak, then I am strong. [2 Cor 12:9-10]
> We have to do our work - offering compassion, hospitality, love, etc. > because that's what we are here to do. The results are for God's glory. > If we do this stuff for our own satisfaction, or to demonstrate to > others, we are like the Pharisees.
> I have many times prayed with or for someone, and thought "that's a > waste of time"; ten, twenty years later, they've come to me and said > "You won't remember this, Mike, but after you prayed, X happened and > that changed my life!"
> We never know, though it's human to *want to know*, what the results of > our actions are. Even our sins can be used by God to bring good out of > evil - but it probably helps if we repent!
> Mike > -- > Michael J Davis
> <>< > "I give You all I have, and when I have nothing, I give You that nothing." > St Therese of Lisieux > <><
you are almost certainly correct.....it was probably all about me and not about the glory of God.....hence nothing apparently happened.
>you are almost certainly correct.....it was probably all about me and not >about the glory of God.....hence nothing apparently happened.
Thats a very bad way to look at it. You prayed for her and did everything you could to help her. You were the good samaritan Jesus wants us to be. Sometimes that costs us, as you found out.
But, as Mike says, who knows what effect you have had on her life. All you can do now is leave it with God. Give him praise that you had the opportunity to share the love of Jesus with her.
In message <scvJm.2868$Ym4.1...@text.news.virginmedia.com> "Steve Hague" <steve.hag...@virgin.net> wrote:
> We most definitely do not all agree that no one can help drug addicts. A > friend of mine was a long term heroin addict. He accepted Jesus in 1991 and > came off heroin with no withdrawal symptoms and has been drug free ever > since. A little research will show you that he is far from unique.
Praise the Lord, Steve. However I want to point out that while his experience may not be unique, neither is it normative. I know others who have had to struggle very hard with various addictions, but who have eventually (and with God's help) gained the victory.
On the basis of "easy off, easy back on", I suspect that God deliberately lets some people struggle, while others, who are perhaps more addicted or have weaker personalities or have other more serious problems that they need to struggle with, are delivered instantaneously.
In message <7xwJm.2887$Ym4.1...@text.news.virginmedia.com> "Hermeneutika" <hermeneutika...@ntlworld.com (nospam)> wrote:
> Maybe my question ought therefore to have been why did God not help the > substance abuser in my life?I thank God for your friends testimony. But > still wonder why God has not answered my prayers in this situation for her > salvation and deliverance from drugs.
Because she didn't really want to quit, just to use you to support her drug habit.
> In message <nxoIm.1864$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com> > "Hermeneutika" <hermeneutika...@ntlworld.com (nospam)> > wrote:
>> Does God love the substance abuser one wonders? After all >> we are all in agreement that nobody can help the substance abuser.
> No, we are not in agreement, either with this or any of the other > extreme and silly statements you make.
>> Grace would reach down to the substance abusers and give them the grace >> to >> make the decision to change.
> I suggest you read that book by Jackie whatever-her-name-was, who > worked with drug addicts in Hong Kong.
Jackie Pullinger...."Chasing the Dragon" the book is called. I also have the DVD of the book. I have read the book more than once and viewed the DVD. Her policy was quite simple. She would not let them in unless they were willing to become Christians. But nevertheless she must have been doing something right. As somehow hundreds if not thousands of people became Christians and were delivered from drugs and also from the gangs. She also made stupid mistakes like giving addicts money in the early stages of her ministry. Or beleiving people to be sincere when they wernt. So I guess i am in good company. However why did God bless her with such astonishing results in Hong Kong and yet nothing of any similar size has happened in the Uk.....
In message <8wcKm.3597$Ym4.2...@text.news.virginmedia.com> "Hermeneutika" <hermeneutika...@ntlworld.com (nospam)> wrote:
> However why did God bless her with such astonishing results in Hong > Kong and yet nothing of any similar size has happened in the Uk.....
Perhaps because there are particular problems in Hong Kong? Perhaps because people in Britain are too sceptical? Perhaps because if she tried running a drugs programme over here and only accepted people willing to become Christians, she would be closed down amid howls of outrage over "bias" or "human rights" or similar nonsense.
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