http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xxi.html

More here:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.liv.html

The excerpt from the Dialogue with Trypho:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxix.html

I note, with distaste, the evasion.

Let's be brief and to the point.  You decided to defend a bit of
pejorative hearsay (why?!?).  It's now absolutely clear that you had
no idea whether it was true.  You won't even defend it!  But instead
of giving it up, you're blustering.  And you're complaining --
incredibly -- because I comment on how I find atheist after atheist
doing this?

Come.  You've been caught bang to rights. Give it up.

All the best,

Mike

I'm a bit tempted to try out one of the suggestions on this page:
http://www.pocm.info/index.html

Refuting things is hard and frequently boring. Suppose I wanted
to write a bestseller refuting Kersey Graves's claim that "Mikado
of the Sintoos" was a crucified-risen-and-ascended-godman-just-like-jesus.
What would the refutation look like? A comprehensive combing through
absence-of-god-knows how many scholarly works, failing to find
any trace of such an alleged godman? Gee, *that* would sell
millions for sure.

It seems pretty clear that Kersey Graves's book is bullshit
(in both the colloquial and the Frankfurtian sense). So,
tell me, where are the bestselling refutations?

"Jesus never existed and all the stories Christians tell
about him were stolen from pagan religions" is an interesting
claim, and scandalous to some people; a book making that
claim might sell well. "Jesus probably did exist, and the
stories told about him probably come from some combination
of fact, extrapolation from the Old Testament, and plain
ordinary error-plus-imagination" is *boring*; it's what
just about everyone thinks (though different people would
put different weights on the various probabilities concerned);
you couldn't write a bestseller on that theme, it would be
like trying to write a bestselling book about how grass is,
like, generally green, and there's quite a lot of it.

"24. Wittoba of the Bilingonese" sounds like a
Dr Who character.

  - They could be said to have travelled through death straight
    to the Realm of the Gods (whatever that might be understood
    to be) without returning to mortal life first. (You could,
    I guess, call that "ascension", but it's a very different
    story from the one told about Jesus.)

  - They could be claimed to be living among us still, immortal
    and incognito.

  - It could simply be left open what happened to them. (Most
    likely some more specific traditions would grow up, I guess.)

It seems to me that he's stretching things somewhat too, though
presumably for reasons quite different from those of whoever
drew up the list Giles posted.

Noted the lack of godwomen too in a male-dominated ancient world. Surprise,
surprise.

I'm not saying that your research is inadequate - although I think it is a
bit early to suggest that the web search was comprehensive (given my 2
minute discovery of the Martyr data of which I was previously completely
unaware) - but that the traditions surrounding godheads are likely to invoke
similar mythologies, for both practical reasons and because cultures and
legends/belief systems obviously cross-pollinate over time. One apparently
respected Canterbury Christchurch researcher I came across yesterday (sorry
already forgotten the name, but should be easy to find again in a search)
discussed the "obvious" major influence of Buddhism with respect to the
Bible, and certain new tradition parables. But that's another issue.

I agree however that quoting a list like this is counterproductive, and
simply fuels some of the sillier responses some theists come up with.

[Roger Pearse wrote]:
-I advise you not to adopt this policy towards any rich man.  If you
-persist in this habit of throwing lies around and refusing to justify
-them, his lawyers will make you a very poor man.

What absolute nonsense. And a direct insult in contravention of the Charter,
as well.

[Roger Pearse wrote]:
-I note, with distaste, the evasion.

I note, with distaste, your lack of ability to respond to argument. You
attacked atheists as a group, and then snipped a reply suggesting why you
might be in error. Now that is a perfect example of evasion in my book. If
you can't answer, snip.

[Roger Pearse wrote]:
-Let's be brief and to the point.  You decided to defend a bit of
-pejorative hearsay (why?!?).  It's now absolutely clear that you had
-no idea whether it was true.  You won't even defend it!  But instead
-of giving it up, you're blustering.  And you're complaining --
-incredibly -- because I comment on how I find atheist after atheist
-doing this?
-
No, that is completely incorrect, and not for the first time unfortunately.
I decided to add my thoughts on this topic, and - returning the section you
conveniently snipped - I did not defend the list at any time, nor would I of
course, for the reasons previously given. You even contradict yourself in
the above contribution, by saying firstly "You decided to defend a bit of
pejorative hearsay", then state two sentences later "You won't even defend
it!". Make your mind up!

I should have stuck with my first inclination - not to engage in pointless
debate with you. I await some reasoned comment from other contributors.

http://touregypt.net/HORUS.HTM

"The texts inscribed upon the Stele are as interesting as the figures of the
gods, and relate to events which were believed to have taken place in the
lives of Isis, Horus, etc. The first composition is called the "Chapter of
the incantation of the Cat," and contains an address to Ra, who is besought
to come to his daughter, for she has been bitten by a scorpion; the second
composition, which is called simply "another Chapter," has contents somewhat
similar to those of the first. The third text is addressed to the "Old Man
who becometh young in his season, the Aged One who maketh himself a child
again." The fourth and following texts contain a narrative of the troubles
of Isis which were caused by the malice of Set, and of her wanderings from
city to city in the Delta, in the neighborhood of the Papyrus Swamps. The
principal incident is the death of her son Horus, which took place whilst
she was absent in a neighboring city, and was caused by the bite of a
scorpion; in spite of all the care which Isis took in hiding her son, a
scorpion managed to make its way into the presence of the boy, and it stung
him until he died. When Isis came back and found her child's dead body she
was distraught and frantic with grief, and was inconsolable until Nephthys
came and advised her to appeal to Thoth, the lord of words of power, She did
so straightway, and Thoth stopped the Boat of Millions of Years in which Ra,
the Sun-god, sailed, and came down to earth in answer to her cry; Thoth had
already provided her with the words of power which enabled her to raise up
Osiris from the dead, and he now bestowed upon her the means of restoring
Horus to life, by supplying her with a series of incantations of
irresistible might.

These Isis recited with due care, and in the proper tone of voice, and the
poison was made to go forth from the body of Horus, and his strength was
renewed, his heart once more occupied its throne, and all was well with him.
Heaven and earth rejoiced at the sight of the restoration of the heir of
Osiris, and the gods were filled with peace and content."

Some more here ref the Stele inscriptions :

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm

lxxvii and lxxviii being the relevant sections.

So far from the list I have looked at Horus, and no others, and only at the
Stele information.

Apart from saying "that list is a load of crap" what non silly response
would you like?

It isnt our fault that a fair number (check the web) of your fellow atheists
lack either the intelligence or the integrity to check or dispute this list.

I think Gareth has helped the atheist corner here tremendously, it is a
shame that all the other atheists cannot be more consistent in their
condemnation of falsehood imho.

You will not convince us that you have the integrity required to make you
worth listening to by failing to condemn even obvious anti Christian
propoganda.

All the best,

The Justin 'quote' is another extract from the lists of material from
people like Kersey Graves, etc, nearly always quoted without
context.

The context in Justin's First Apology is pleading that Christianity is
should not be a capital crime.  "Please don't torture me to death," is
his message.  "Look; there is nothing odd or revolting about us".

He does this by pointing out that individual pieces are witnessed or
paralled in groups that are legal and unpersecuted, and therefore that
it was wrong to demonise Christians as 'atheists'.

By pulling this sentence out of context, it can be made to look as if
Justin is saying that Christians copied this from paganism.  That
isn't his point.  But have a look for yourself.

Here's the full text of the First Apology.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3701_660636

All the best,

However the list isn't entirely "a load of crap", as I've pointed out. It
took me two minutes to tumble on the Martyr quotes, and about five minutes
looking for Egyptian records ref. the resurrection of Horus (of which I was
completely unaware). I haven't looked for anything on any other name in the
list as yet.

-The Justin 'quote' is another extract from the lists of material from
-people like Kersey Graves, etc, nearly always quoted without
-context.

-The context in Justin's First Apology is pleading that Christianity is
-should not be a capital crime.  "Please don't torture me to death," is
-his message.  "Look; there is nothing odd or revolting about us".

-He does this by pointing out that individual pieces are witnessed or
-paralled in groups that are legal and unpersecuted, and therefore that
-it was wrong to demonise Christians as 'atheists'.

-By pulling this sentence out of context, it can be made to look as if
-Justin is saying that Christians copied this from paganism.  That
-isn't his point.  But have a look for yourself.

That's hilarious! Of course I wasn't suggesting that Justin Martyr, a
Christian and 'saint', would claim that the religion he believes in was
*copied* from an earlier belief system. He would have to be completely nuts
to do any such thing.

The writings in question simply reveals that Martyr was aware of the
existence of these earlier mythologies and ascension stories - which you
yourself point out, rotfl.

By your answer it's clear you didn't give the URLs a click. Are you so
insecure in your faith that you can't even take a look?  Many of the
books the site recommends are by Christian authors.

The only truly useful sources on this question have to be works at least
from the period around the birth of Christ, or preferably prior to that
date. Later sources would obviously have to reference works of antiquity to
have any credence. However, obviously such records are in extremely short
supply - few have survived (we won't go into why a number have been mislaid
or destroyed!)

Ok some of the pocm recommended books may contain some useful information,
but it's impossible to say without reading them first.

The Ancient Mysteries : A Source book
Sacred Texts of the Mystery Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean
World
 Marvin W. Meyer (Editor)

http://www.entheology.org/pocm/getting_started_pocm.html

The chap behind the website is certainly enthusiastic as to its
merits. "This is a sourcebook, is a collection of primary documents --
excerpts from ancient authors who wrote about Pagan religion and early
Christianity.  It's a great collection, with the original text of most
of the standard ancient references to the pagan mystery religions."

There's other types of insecurity, like not being sure if one *wants* to
have faith, but that's quite different, or people who aren't sure
whether they believe, but those types of people would be clear about
that if you were to ask if they are a Christian - they'd say "kind of"
or "maybe".

Ressurected or Reborn: Apart from routine reincarnation? In the Bhagavad
Gita we are told that Krishna pops down whenever the amount of trouble
comes too much in order to sort things out. In this case I'd understand
him as Vishnu. Many Hindus consider Buddha as a later incarnation of
Vishnu. Some add in Christ. Of those that accept Buddha as an
incarnation I've heard some description that his Dharma was meant to
confuse certain people - not very charitable, but that's religion. The
Advaita group(s) venerate him and factor in his teachings which seems,
to some extent, to have happened wider in Hinduism.

It's generally accepted that Vishnu has at least one more visit ahead.

Heavenly realms are an interesting question, and it depends on exactly
what you believe. They're mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita though my
understanding (more toward Advaita, so Buddhist tendencies) was that
the idea in the Christian way of thinking doesn't make so much sense as
Vishnu/Krishna/God/Whatever is more pantheist. The whole human/god
relationship is different.

Non-Advaitan (Dvaitan to lose the double negative) would say of me perhaps
"Poor thing, doesn't see the _person_ of God, not so advanced soul". Some
older Hindu notions point to ideas like the gods having a home somewhere,
and I've met Hindu groups such as Neasden in London who seem to have an
idea of heaven that would be familiar to Christians, even down to that
their deity helps them get into it.

Still, not exactly a Christ story. Neither were condemned by their
own people as far as I know. There's none of the business about them
having to die as payment for our sins or anything. These religions are
structured very differently in regards to how sin is dealt with so the
need for someone to do that, or that it could be effective, doesn't seem
to make sense. After all it's my karma, my habit patterns, my development
not his. That someone died 2000 years ago does not _directly_ effect
that[1]. Sudden belief in Christ would not change it either, only possibly
set about changes in my life that may or may not help me depending on
where I go with it.  No the "Free Ride" story doesn't wash.

 - Richard

[1] There will be indirect effects because my life has been touched by
people who believed and the world that I have grown in has been
effected. This isn't what Christians mean though.

Much as falsehood about any group is a bad thing, are you expecting all
of us to come along and publicly decry this list?

If I remember correctly it was an illustrative list of other religious
figures who'd in some way had stories that were similar to that of Christ
including things like miracles. (Excuse me if I've changed thread without
spotting it so am thinking of the wrong list, possible in slrn.) Some
of them were tenuous. A number I didn't recognise.

The point of the list was that we can't take just the stories of
a miraculous life as evidence on its own, otherwise we'd also have to
accept all these other stories as true too. Perhaps there was also a
bit of "This is not new or unique" which seems defensible to me when you
look at parallels happening in other parts of the world at similar times.

 - Richard