I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than electing representatives.
The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point where concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what it says and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise it then and there?
I'm curious because one AGM recently broke away from the structure ( for reasons that I won't go into here). As a consequence, a raft of issues came up and were addressed. As a consequence new people joined the Executive Committee.
I'm not suggesting that we reduce AGMs to free-for-alls, but by opening them up and being prepared to answer questions and indeed, encouraging input, we may be able to turn these dull set piece dramas into something that gets people involved.
> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber > stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than > electing representatives.
> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
Officially an AGM is for that purpose.
> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point where > concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what it says > and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise it then and > there?
AGMs should not have AOB. BUT I agree with what you are saying and perhaps that possibly before the AGM something along the lines you suggest could be good. I say before rather than after because then if you are going to get volunteeres it is better to have them as part of the AGM rather than after it.
The AGM itself however should be clear and concise.
Dave wrote: > "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote in message > news:RN-dnec6Np2W4njXnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com... >> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber >> stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than >> electing representatives.
>> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
> Officially an AGM is for that purpose.
>> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point where >> concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what it says >> and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise it then and >> there?
> that possibly before the AGM something along the lines you suggest could be > good. I say before rather than after because then if you are going to get > volunteeres it is better to have them as part of the AGM rather than after > it.
> The AGM itself however should be clear and concise.
> Dave wrote: >> "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote in message >> news:RN-dnec6Np2W4njXnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com... >>> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber >>> stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than >>> electing representatives.
>>> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
>> Officially an AGM is for that purpose.
>>> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point >>> where concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what it >>> says and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise it >>> then and there?
>> AGMs should not have AOB.
> Why not?
Read POR about what the AGM is for and there is no place for AOB.
I was also told that on many courses I have attended.
>"Gooders" <good...@anti.spam> wrote in message >news:iPydnYMCIKZsGHjXnZ2dnUVZ8uidnZ2d@pipex.net... >> Dave wrote: >>> "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote in message >>> news:RN-dnec6Np2W4njXnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com... >>>> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber >>>> stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than >>>> electing representatives.
>>>> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
>>> Officially an AGM is for that purpose.
>>>> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point >>>> where concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what it >>>> says and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise it >>>> then and there?
>>> AGMs should not have AOB.
>> Why not?
>Read POR about what the AGM is for and there is no place for AOB.
>I was also told that on many courses I have attended.
EGMs should have no AOB. AGMs need AOB.
-- John Russell CSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon http://www.pinhoescouts.org.uk/cubs/ Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.
> "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote in message > news:RN-dnec6Np2W4njXnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com... >> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber >> stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than >> electing representatives.
>> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
> Officially an AGM is for that purpose.
>> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point where >> concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what it says >> and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise it then and >> there?
> AGMs should not have AOB. BUT I agree with what you are saying and perhaps > that possibly before the AGM something along the lines you suggest could > be good. I say before rather than after because then if you are going to > get volunteeres it is better to have them as part of the AGM rather than > after it.
I have looked at POR and I can see where that urban myth arises. The details of running an AGM are omitted. There are references in various documents, but one would have thought that a basic factsheet on running an AGM would be available. if there is, I can't find it.
The only thing that I can think of - but even that should be put on the agenda is any changes to the constitution.
Business should not be invited from the floor as most decisions are made by the exec committee (that is what they are elected to do) and as such should do it as the exec and not as the full Scout Council.
>> "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote in message >> news:RN-dnec6Np2W4njXnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com... >>> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber >>> stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than >>> electing representatives.
>>> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
>> Officially an AGM is for that purpose.
>>> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point >>> where concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what it >>> says and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise it >>> then and there?
>> AGMs should not have AOB. BUT I agree with what you are saying and >> perhaps that possibly before the AGM something along the lines you >> suggest could be good. I say before rather than after because then if you >> are going to get volunteeres it is better to have them as part of the AGM >> rather than after it.
> I have looked at POR and I can see where that urban myth arises. The > details of running an AGM are omitted. There are references in various > documents, but one would have thought that a basic factsheet on running an > AGM would be available. if there is, I can't find it.
> AOB is the point where the "rebels" can raise issues that the > "establishment wish to hide.
> Ewan Scott
As I have put in another post - if you have AOB that is not the business of the Scout Council no decisions can be made. Most decisions need to be made by the exec and that cannot be done with 50 people there most of whom have no right to vote at the exec. They have a right to elsec the exec but not influence the decisions they make other than by request.
>> "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote in message >> news:RN-dnec6Np2W4njXnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com... >>> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber >>> stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than >>> electing representatives.
>>> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
>> Officially an AGM is for that purpose.
>>> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point >>> where concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what it >>> says and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise it >>> then and there?
>> AGMs should not have AOB. BUT I agree with what you are saying and >> perhaps that possibly before the AGM something along the lines you >> suggest could be good. I say before rather than after because then if you >> are going to get volunteeres it is better to have them as part of the AGM >> rather than after it.
> I have looked at POR and I can see where that urban myth arises. The > details of running an AGM are omitted. There are references in various > documents, but one would have thought that a basic factsheet on running an > AGM would be available. if there is, I can't find it.
On 26 Oct, 10:50, "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber > stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than electing > representatives.
I've been to a few too! And most have not been set piece presentations....
:-)
> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point where > concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what it says and > if people have a question or an issue that they can raise it then and there?
AGMs MUST BE AGMs!
They should not be a barbecue.
They should not be a disco.
They should not be an annual dinner.
They should not be a 10 minute discussion over a cuppa and meat pie at halftime during the Huddersfield Town v Tranmere Rovers match!
Etc.
(But you can include these things if you like!)
There is a 'structure' which you have to follow but this does not have to be done in a formal committee meeting type of manner.
Very often I found when I went to AGMs it wasn't the substance that drove/kept people away it was the boring presentation and presenters that did so.
Largely your typical AGM will likely have: introduction/welcome, a brief explanation of what's to happen, review/acceptance of minutes of last year's AGM, nominations/elections to GEC/sub-committees, trustees report, report and/or statement by GSL/SiC and GC, presentation of accounts with maybe a summary/highlight by GT, review/acceptance of report and accounts, final words and bye-bye.
These are the typical 'core agenda' items.
BUT
They shouldn't be the only items!
I would suggest that sections should 'report' too. How they report is up to you. Some do static displays, e.g. what we did this year, camp, competitions, events, community support, etc in words and pictures. Some do active reports with the kids and/or section leaders I've seen talks by kids about an event or a badge, a game the beavers learned, a sing/dance by some kids who took part in a gang show, an instrumental musical piece by cubs, a pioneering race/challenge by scouts, there was even one scout who did a 10 minute stand up comedy act - part of a badge - and one cub who did magic tricks. The section reports is a chance for you and your yp to show parents why they send their kids to your group!
You should also take the approach that the AGM is a celebration. (And hopefully you've got lots to celebrate, even if it's just surviving another year!) So get out all the silverware. Some groups also have annual prizes/presentations.
One group that was celebrating its 50th incoporated aspects of a reunion with some of the former members and leaders giving snippets about life/scouting back then.
And you must debate the issues which are uppermost in the Group. 'Does anyone have any questions?' often doesn't work because a lot of people don't want to be the first to rock the boat or even sound contentious. When I was a GSL I always gave a 'report' to parents and I always raised major issues in it. And during it I talked with parents in the audience, not just to them, i.e. 'What do people think about this idea? What do people think we should spend this money on? What do people think about the level of parent help/involvement? Etc. And use OPEN questions! Closed ones let parents off by them having only to say yes or no.
And if there is a major issue then set it as an agenda item and have a debate about it. E.g. 'Should the Group close down because it's not getting any parental help?'
And if it's items that have a district input then make sure the DC is there. Put the DC on the spot even and let her/him take questions from parents.
And don't forget that some items do not have to be done to death in depth! The GT does not have to go through every item in the accounts. Most accounts are straight-forward and IME I'd cap the GT to 5 mins tops. In fact one year they were so straight-forward all the GT said was 'Here are the published accounts, page 7 of your booklet. Notes are self explanatory. Thanks to Dave for independent review. Later I'll be proposing they be accepted.'
Keep the 'formal' items to the point, concise (as necessary) and relevant.
Don't let anyone get up and waffle! (Especially the DC. It only takes 10 seconds to promote the District Annual Dinner Dance!)
PUBLISH! Everyone in attendance gets an AGM pack. And what goes in the pack? A copy of the Report and Accounts, for a start! And then whatever's relevant. Disclosure forms, for example, if you're trying to recruit leader/helper support. Info about joining if you're trying to recruit kids. Info about upcoming events. Etc.
The thing about putting things down in print - i.e. actually publishing a 'Report' - is that you can meet a lot of the legal/ statutory/POR obligations in doing so and don't need to ocver these (in words) in the actual meeting.
For example, in my ex-groups we published (in print) the Trustees Report and all I said during the meeting was: 'You'll find the Trustees Report on page 5. This outlines the responsibilities and actions of the GEC and those who sit on that body. It was approved by the GEC on XXXXXX. If anyone has any matters from it they wish to discuss then please see me or a GEC member later.' Done.
I've already said about accounts. All that needs to be said is highlights. Most of what could be said should be in print with explanatory notes. Parents don't need to be told that 'the interest on the group's main account fell from 1.7% to 1.5% this year'. However, the GT should say to parent if subs will have to go up from £15 per term to £30 per term!
Towards the end of my AGMs we always had prize-giving. Most kids got a 'prize' for something - sometimes it was just a dip in the candy box for a good turn at camp, say - but significant awards were not handed out like confetti. There was always a 'supporters' type award (which often went to parents). The GSL usually had his personal awards to make as well (e.g. thanks badges to leaders/GEC members for exceptional service).
And do have tea/biscuits/other refreshments to finish! And time for informal chat. Some groups had an 'interlude' where they did this - stopped parents charging off as soon as someone said 'that concludes our meeting. Tea and co.....' One group which had its AGM at the end of the calendar year included its Christmas draw/tombola to raise funds and support for its kids parties.
So: plenty of material to look at; plenty of displays; plenty of action; plenty of kids doing things; plenty of interaction.
Boring, but necessary, stuff goes on paper to be read (shredded?) later.
So what about incorporating it in some of the things I mentioned above, e.g. dinner, barbecue, disco?
Er...no!
Include them in the AGM! Don't try to bury/hide the AGM. Remember it's not the AGM per se that's boring but rather sometimes it's the people running/speaking at it. Even sometimes the necessary bits can be quite interesting. And liven it up. One group many years ago got the sponsoring authority in person to contribute. The RC priest stood up and gave the meeting 15 minutes of his memories about the value of scouting interspersed with jokes (some 'unusual' for a priest)and witty cracks which had them in pleats.
Don't be frightened of holding an AGM. It's not what it is which puts people off, it's what it does. If it's too formal, stuffy, boring and only covers the necessary in a boring, drole way then it will put people off. An AGM is a celebration. Make it so.
I would suggest though not to hold it over a cuppa and a meat pie at half-time at the Huddersfield Town v Tranmere rovers game!
:-)
I'm saddened by those who believe they need to have a barbecue, for example, and include AGM items in that because they feel parents are put off by AGMs.
Parents are not put off by AGMs that are interesting, informative, and interactive.
Parents are put off by under-cooked sausages at a barbecue! :-)
> I'm curious because one AGM recently broke away from the structure ( for > reasons that I won't go into here).
Do tell me where in POR it lists a particular structure that must be followed?
An AGM as a minimum covers the appointment of the formal management structures and the publication of the Report and Accounts. There are accepted norms for doing these things but there are no formal laid down directed procedures as such.
Of course if people didn't cover these minimum necessary requirments at the meeting then it wasn't an AGM.
> As a consequence, a raft of issues came > up and were addressed. As a consequence new people joined the Executive > Committee.
> I'm not suggesting that we reduce AGMs to free-for-alls, but by opening them > up and being prepared to answer questions and indeed, encouraging input, we > may be able to turn these dull set piece dramas into something that gets > people involved.
But an AGM doesn't have to be a dull set piece drama unless the people organising it want it to be!
Whenever I've stood up to talk at an AGM - either as a section leader, GSL, trustee, commissioner, etc - I've always accepted and expected questions to be put to me. And those in the audience have always expected/demanded that I answer them! Have I been in a free-for-all AGM? No. But I've been in some where the debate has been heated and intense.
If I was a parent and I was invited to an AGM and I went, I listened to leaders/GEC people speaking, and then I went home - I would be livid and gunning for the GSL's balls!
If I'm a parent at an AGM I want opportunities to question others, ask questions, and contribute, if I so desire. Now that can be at the end of the GSLs speech, during nominations, after a presentation, or during a break, or over a cuppa at the end. AGMs must be interactive - not one way.
> Thoughts?
Just one or two!
:-)
(Apologies for being quiet recently. Been busy donating my body to the NHS - again!
Dave wrote: > "Gooders" <good...@anti.spam> wrote in message > news:iPydnYMCIKZsGHjXnZ2dnUVZ8uidnZ2d@pipex.net... >> Dave wrote: >>> "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote in message >>> news:RN-dnec6Np2W4njXnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com... >>>> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber >>>> stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than >>>> electing representatives.
>>>> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
>>> Officially an AGM is for that purpose.
>>>> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point >>>> where concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what it >>>> says and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise it >>>> then and there?
>>> AGMs should not have AOB. >> Why not?
> Read POR about what the AGM is for and there is no place for AOB.
> I was also told that on many courses I have attended.
> DaveB > West Yorks
So _Scout_ AGMs should not have AoB?
I regularly attend my company's AGM (FTSE100 company) and there is always an 'AoB' section to take questions from the floor. These questions can, but do not have to, be pre-registered.
On 26 Oct, 11:05, "Dave" <dave.barwic...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> AGMs should not have AOB.
Eh?
What?
According to the published procedures of an organisation there generally is a set minimum that an AGM must cover. (In scouting's case the 'mimimum' is covered in POR, IIRC.) There isn't, AFAIAA, a maximum. AOB can be on the agenda. In fact you can put whatever you want on the agenda so long as the minimum requirements are met. Of course good practice says that you should only include things that may be relevant. Thus an item to discuss the quality of the pies at the recent Huddersfield Town - Tranmere Rovers game may not be relevant, however, the quality of the pies at the same game which your cubs went to and ate and got e-coli poisoning may be! (Only 'for example'. I'm sure the pies are okay!)
If my ex-leaders Tarquin and Chardonnay wanted to do a song/dance routine in their tutus at the AGM then why not? Nothing there to stop them. In fact there's nothing, AFAIAA, in POR that says Tarquin can't present the Annual Accounts while dancing to the Dance of the Cygnets from Swan Lake with all the cub scouts.
> The AGM itself however should be clear and concise.
And where does it say it should be? Not in POR methinks.
An AGM can within certain limits be almost whatever it wants to be.
I always say that an AGM should always be interesting, informative and interactive.
So that matters relating to the Group Scout Council that have arisen in the past year can be discussed.
An EGM is mandated for a specific agenda item or items and as such there is no other business.
> The only thing that I can think of - but even that should be put on the > agenda is any changes to the constitution.
> Business should not be invited from the floor as most decisions are made by > the exec committee (that is what they are elected to do) and as such should > do it as the exec and not as the full Scout Council.
No.
The AGM is to give it its full name in relation to a Scout Group is: 'The Annual General Meeting of the XX Anytown Scout Group Council'
It discusses matters and votes on matters that are the business of the Scout Group Council. Things such as Nomination and election of trustees is a matter for the Council not the GEC. So too is approval of annual report and accounts. So too is any matter relating to the function and running of the Scout Group.
The AGM is directed in its business by the GEC, but the AGM is a Council meeting not a GEC meeting.
You are technically correct in saying it does not have to have an AOB item, but the GEC must consider whether to insert AOB as an agenda item and/or to invite items for the agenda prior to the meeting. Thus if a parent wishes to raise an issue they can do so either at the AGM during AOB or have the issue placed on the agenda through a request ot the GEC. What the GEC can't do though is to not let members of the Council have a relevant input to the AGM if they so desire. The GEC merely directs the procedure for that input to be made.
Certainly items raised in AOB should not as a rule be put to a resolution/vote. Resolutions are drawn up by the GEC beforehand so if any parent has an issue which leads to a resolution then it should be tabled in advance and considered by the GEC.
I would advise any GEC thinking of doing things differently and not giving parents an opportunity to speak or place a question, to be very careful. Parents have a habit of keeping hands down for some votes! :-)
If you take away the opportunity for attendees to interact then you also take away the reason for those attendees to attend!
> Dave wrote: >> "Gooders" <good...@anti.spam> wrote in message >> news:iPydnYMCIKZsGHjXnZ2dnUVZ8uidnZ2d@pipex.net... >>> Dave wrote: >>>> "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote in message >>>> news:RN-dnec6Np2W4njXnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com... >>>>> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber >>>>> stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than >>>>> electing representatives.
>>>>> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
>>>> Officially an AGM is for that purpose.
>>>>> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point >>>>> where concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what >>>>> it says and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise >>>>> it then and there?
>>>> AGMs should not have AOB. >>> Why not?
>> Read POR about what the AGM is for and there is no place for AOB.
>> I was also told that on many courses I have attended.
>> DaveB >> West Yorks > So _Scout_ AGMs should not have AoB?
> I regularly attend my company's AGM (FTSE100 company) and there is always > an 'AoB' section to take questions from the floor. These questions can, > but do not have to, be pre-registered.
> Stephen
At our District AGM we allow questions to the person making the report - i.e. the Treasurer or Secretary etc. these are done at the time so that when the report is approved by the meeting the matter is closed.
Other questions relating to anything other than the business of the AGM cannot be answered. The reason is that an answer needs the new committee to approve any such answer.
For instance if someone asks the question " Can you assure us that the District Levy will not increase next year". Nobody at the AGM can answer that with anything other than " Funding for the District is a metter for new newly elcted Exec taking into consideration the budgets that may be required by the District Team and how much funding we can obtain by other methods". That is a poloticians answer and would not answer the question.
>>> AGMs should not have AOB. BUT I agree with what you are saying and >>> perhaps that possibly before the AGM something along the lines you >>> suggest could be good. I say before rather than after because then if >>> you are going to get volunteeres it is better to have them as part of >>> the AGM rather than after it.
>> I have looked at POR and I can see where that urban myth arises. The >> details of running an AGM are omitted. There are references in various >> documents, but one would have thought that a basic factsheet on running >> an AGM would be available. if there is, I can't find it.
>> AOB is the point where the "rebels" can raise issues that the >> "establishment wish to hide.
> As I have put in another post - if you have AOB that is not the business > of the Scout Council no decisions can be made. Most decisions need to be > made by the exec and that cannot be done with 50 people there most of whom > have no right to vote at the exec. They have a right to elsec the exec but > not influence the decisions they make other than by request.
The AGM is the time when the Scout Council can ask for its concerns , if any, to be discussed.
AOB allows, for instance, the parents who may be concerned about the lack of disabled access, may make their voice known and raise the issue publicly, rather than in cliques behind the scenes. AOB allows, for instance, the disapproval of the parents of Exec actions to be made known. Or indeed their approval.
Not having AOB at an AGM distances the Exec from the Scout Council and gives it free reign to do as it pleases. That is NEVER a good thing.
If the parents don't turn up at the AGM, if they don't ask questions, then that's fine, but they must have the opportunity in order to actually give the Exec a mandate to do its work. Without AoB, without open discussion, the Exec is just a Junta running a mini-dictatorship.
> > Dave wrote: > >> "Gooders" <good...@anti.spam> wrote in message > >>news:iPydnYMCIKZsGHjXnZ2dnUVZ8uidnZ2d@pipex.net... > >>> Dave wrote: > >>>> "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote in message > >>>>news:RN-dnec6Np2W4njXnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com... > >>>>> I've been to a few and most have been set piece presentations, rubber > >>>>> stamping the accounts and annual report, and nominating rather than > >>>>> electing representatives.
> >>>>> The former due to the lack of interest by the parents, usually.
> >>>> Officially an AGM is for that purpose.
> >>>>> Should AGMs be more than just the set piece? Should they be a point > >>>>> where concerns are raised? Should Any Other Business really mean what > >>>>> it says and if people have a question or an issue that they can raise > >>>>> it then and there?
> >>>> AGMs should not have AOB. > >>> Why not?
> >> Read POR about what the AGM is for and there is no place for AOB.
> >> I was also told that on many courses I have attended.
> >> DaveB > >> West Yorks > > So _Scout_ AGMs should not have AoB?
> > I regularly attend my company's AGM (FTSE100 company) and there is always > > an 'AoB' section to take questions from the floor. These questions can, > > but do not have to, be pre-registered.
> > Stephen
> At our District AGM we allow questions to the person making the report - > i.e. the Treasurer or Secretary etc. these are done at the time so that when > the report is approved by the meeting the matter is closed.
Not an issue. Members have a right to comment and vote.
> Other questions relating to anything other than the business of the AGM > cannot be answered. The reason is that an answer needs the new committee to > approve any such answer.
If the matters relate to trustee business. Strictly speaking matters should relate to the management of the entity, here the District, but a little leeway can often be spared to include matters which relate to matters other than management which could be answered by some.
> For instance if someone asks the question " Can you assure us that the > District Levy will not increase next year". Nobody at the AGM can answer > that with anything other than " Funding for the District is a metter for new > newly elcted Exec taking into consideration the budgets that may be required > by the District Team and how much funding we can obtain by other methods". > That is a poloticians answer and would not answer the question.
Someone can answer the question by saying: 'No we cannot assure you because that is a matter for the new DEC, however, if you have a particular concern which you wish to raise we can pass it on to the DEC.' Certainly no one can say yes or no.
AOB does not have to be questions that should be put as resolutions before the relevant EC.
Many AOB questions are less formal and can be answered at the meeting.
AOB could just be an opportunity for people to raise rather than debate issues, or for people to comment on things, or for people to make statements of opposition/support, etc. AOB issues may not need answers, resolutions or votes.
Your approach is too rigid imo, it does not have to be.
> >>> AGMs should not have AOB. BUT I agree with what you are saying and > >>> perhaps that possibly before the AGM something along the lines you > >>> suggest could be good. I say before rather than after because then if > >>> you are going to get volunteeres it is better to have them as part of > >>> the AGM rather than after it.
> >> I have looked at POR and I can see where that urban myth arises. The > >> details of running an AGM are omitted. There are references in various > >> documents, but one would have thought that a basic factsheet on running > >> an AGM would be available. if there is, I can't find it.
> >> AOB is the point where the "rebels" can raise issues that the > >> "establishment wish to hide.
> > As I have put in another post - if you have AOB that is not the business > > of the Scout Council no decisions can be made. Most decisions need to be > > made by the exec and that cannot be done with 50 people there most of whom > > have no right to vote at the exec. They have a right to elsec the exec but > > not influence the decisions they make other than by request.
> The AGM is the time when the Scout Council can ask for its concerns , if > any, to be discussed.
> AOB allows, for instance, the parents who may be concerned about the lack of > disabled access, may make their voice known and raise the issue publicly, > rather than in cliques behind the scenes. > AOB allows, for instance, the disapproval of the parents of Exec actions to > be made known. Or indeed their approval.
> Not having AOB at an AGM distances the Exec from the Scout Council and gives > it free reign to do as it pleases. That is NEVER a good thing.
> If the parents don't turn up at the AGM, if they don't ask questions, then > that's fine, but they must have the opportunity in order to actually give > the Exec a mandate to do its work. Without AoB, without open discussion, the > Exec is just a Junta running a mini-dictatorship.
> On 26 Oct, 11:05, "Dave" <dave.barwic...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> AGMs should not have AOB.
> Eh?
> What?
> According to the published procedures of an organisation there > generally is a set minimum that an AGM must cover. (In scouting's case > the 'mimimum' is covered in POR, IIRC.) There isn't, AFAIAA, a > maximum. AOB can be on the agenda. In fact you can put whatever you > want on the agenda so long as the minimum requirements are met. Of > course good practice says that you should only include things that may > be relevant.
OK POR doesn't say that you cannot add things. But it does tell you what you must cover. And yes it needs to be relevant to the year end.
>Thus an item to discuss the quality of the pies at the > recent Huddersfield Town - Tranmere Rovers game may not be relevant, > however, the quality of the pies at the same game which your cubs went > to and ate and got e-coli poisoning may be! (Only 'for example'. I'm > sure the pies are okay!)
MAY being the operative word. It may be something that could be discussed after the official closure of the meeting but it doesn't really need to be discussed as part of the AGM and it has no bearing on getting in place a new committee or reviewing the activiteis both financial or otherwise of the District.
> If my ex-leaders Tarquin and Chardonnay wanted to do a song/dance > routine in their tutus at the AGM then why not? Nothing there to stop > them.
Nothing at all. Usually here though the 'entertainment' or speaker normally comes on just after the official business meeting has closed.
In fact there's nothing, AFAIAA, in POR that says Tarquin can't
> present the Annual Accounts while dancing to the Dance of the Cygnets > from Swan Lake with all the cub scouts.
>> The AGM itself however should be clear and concise.
> And where does it say it should be? Not in POR methinks.
It doesn't - but it is a business meeting. If you are after support from outside bodies and have the Mayor, MPs, Guide rep etc at the meeting etc the last thing you need is a long boring meeting discussing the ins and outs of the quality of food at the District Camp - that is a metter for the Scouters Meetings.
> An AGM can within certain limits be almost whatever it wants to be.
> I always say that an AGM should always be interesting, informative and > interactive.
I agree and as such the meeting itself should not go on with irellevant things that the committee have no control over.
> I'm curious because one AGM recently broke away from the structure ( for > reasons that I won't go into here). >Do tell me where in POR it lists a particular structure that must be >followed?
The set practice of rubber stamping. As to why, I won't / can't say.
> As a consequence, a raft of issues came > up and were addressed. As a consequence new people joined the Executive > Committee.
> I'm not suggesting that we reduce AGMs to free-for-alls, but by opening > them > up and being prepared to answer questions and indeed, encouraging input, > we > may be able to turn these dull set piece dramas into something that gets > people involved. >But an AGM doesn't have to be a dull set piece drama unless the people >organising it want it to be!
Kind of my point, in a way.
> Thoughts? >Just one or two!
I did ask!
>Apologies for being quiet recently. Been busy donating my body to the >NHS - again! - and trying to keep the ECG regular while studying and >doing some tricky exams. Okay now.)
> On 26 Oct, 14:22, "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote: >> >>> AGMs should not have AOB. BUT I agree with what you are saying and >> >>> perhaps that possibly before the AGM something along the lines you >> >>> suggest could be good. I say before rather than after because then if >> >>> you are going to get volunteeres it is better to have them as part of >> >>> the AGM rather than after it.
>> >> I have looked at POR and I can see where that urban myth arises. The >> >> details of running an AGM are omitted. There are references in various >> >> documents, but one would have thought that a basic factsheet on >> >> running >> >> an AGM would be available. if there is, I can't find it.
>> >> AOB is the point where the "rebels" can raise issues that the >> >> "establishment wish to hide.
>> > As I have put in another post - if you have AOB that is not the >> > business >> > of the Scout Council no decisions can be made. Most decisions need to >> > be >> > made by the exec and that cannot be done with 50 people there most of >> > whom >> > have no right to vote at the exec. They have a right to elsec the exec >> > but >> > not influence the decisions they make other than by request.
>> The AGM is the time when the Scout Council can ask for its concerns , if >> any, to be discussed.
>> AOB allows, for instance, the parents who may be concerned about the lack >> of >> disabled access, may make their voice known and raise the issue publicly, >> rather than in cliques behind the scenes. >> AOB allows, for instance, the disapproval of the parents of Exec actions >> to >> be made known. Or indeed their approval.
>> Not having AOB at an AGM distances the Exec from the Scout Council and >> gives >> it free reign to do as it pleases. That is NEVER a good thing.
>> If the parents don't turn up at the AGM, if they don't ask questions, >> then >> that's fine, but they must have the opportunity in order to actually give >> the Exec a mandate to do its work. Without AoB, without open discussion, >> the >> Exec is just a Junta running a mini-dictatorship.
> Absolutely spot on!
> GAGS
To a point I agree on the point of allowing parents and other members the right to speak. It is difficult to know however where to put that.
I have been to some meetings in the past where the AOB has gone on for ages and has been totally nothing to do with the official business of the meeting and it is then a matter of where you draw the line.
There are better places to allow people to bring up their concerns than the AGM in my opinion.
On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:22:11 -0000, Ewan Scott <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Not having AOB at an AGM distances the Exec from the Scout Council and > gives it free reign to do as it pleases. That is NEVER a good thing.
> If the parents don't turn up at the AGM, if they don't ask questions, > then that's fine, but they must have the opportunity in order to > actually give the Exec a mandate to do its work. Without AoB, without > open discussion, the Exec is just a Junta running a mini-dictatorship.
Have to agree.
The last District AGM I was at was attended by the Chief Commissioner.
One leader (from a different group) asked the only question under AOB - as to whether District Scouters Meeting were to be restarted.
As there were no district Scouters meetings, (no GSL meetings, no nothing!) at the time, he had no opportunity to raise this issue at any other meeting.
With invited guests in attendance (local police and fire chief, lord provost etc...) the district was made to look as though it didn't communicate with it's own leaders (which was and probably still is the case)
After the AGM the Chief Commissioner berated the District Chairman and District Commissioner for allowing AOB.
I found it incredible. I still do. I wholeheartedly agree with you Ewan!
People loose touch so very quickly when a committee starts a meeting!
Never seen true open discussion in Scouting except with young people, or, with adults in a social setting(!)
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:22:11 -0000, Ewan Scott <ewansc...@btinternet.com> > wrote:
> > Not having AOB at an AGM distances the Exec from the Scout Council and > > gives it free reign to do as it pleases. That is NEVER a good thing.
> > If the parents don't turn up at the AGM, if they don't ask questions, > > then that's fine, but they must have the opportunity in order to > > actually give the Exec a mandate to do its work. Without AoB, without > > open discussion, the Exec is just a Junta running a mini-dictatorship.
> Have to agree.
> The last District AGM I was at was attended by the Chief Commissioner.
> One leader (from a different group) asked the only question under AOB - as > to whether District Scouters Meeting were to be restarted.
That's probably a question that should be levelled at the DC at some other opportune moment, but it's not entirely out of place.
> As there were no district Scouters meetings, (no GSL meetings, no > nothing!) at the time, he had no opportunity to raise this issue at any > other meeting.
He could've just picked up the phone and called the DC but I can understand why someone would ask such a question at a DAGM even if it's simply borne of sheer frustration.
> With invited guests in attendance (local police and fire chief, lord > provost etc...) the district was made to look as though it didn't > communicate with it's own leaders (which was and probably still is the > case)
Whoa there!
You are not suggesting that this leader made the district look silly are you?
The district looks silly because of it own (non) doing.
> After the AGM the Chief Commissioner berated the District Chairman and > District Commissioner for allowing AOB.
If I was the CC I would have taken the DC aside and given him a metaphorically good arse kicking.
If people want to 'stage-manage' these AGMs then fine go ahead, but don't expect anyone else will turn up or contribute.
The DC runs a district in one of three ways:
1. Autocratically and despotically. Scare the shit out of leaders, threaten them with the teal black helicopters, etc, and see where it gets you. You can get lucky and succeed and have every leader feeding out of your hand. Or you can get unlucky and get to be shown up as a tyrannical shit. Lose the support of GSLs and the CC finds out then the DC is dead duck. Do you feel lucky punk?
2. With the support of others, especially the ADCs and GSLs.
3. Mostly 2 but with a little bit of 3 at times.
I saw a lot of 3.
> I found it incredible.
I do too.
> I still do. I wholeheartedly agree with you Ewan!
So too me.
> People loose touch so very quickly when a committee starts a meeting!
> Never seen true open discussion in Scouting except with young people, or, > with adults in a social setting(!)
I have but you need the right sort of people to be involved.
On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:23:26 -0000, GAGS <gags...@lineone.net> wrote: >> One leader (from a different group) asked the only question under AOB - >> as >> to whether District Scouters Meeting were to be restarted.
> That's probably a question that should be levelled at the DC at some > other opportune moment, but it's not entirely out of place.
He certainly didn't think it was inappropriate, and he did word it in a very nice way.
> He could've just picked up the phone and called the DC but I can > understand why someone would ask such a question at a DAGM even if > it's simply borne of sheer frustration.
Frustration was indeed the word.
>> With invited guests in attendance (local police and fire chief, lord >> provost etc...) the district was made to look as though it didn't >> communicate with it's own leaders (which was and probably still is the >> case)
> Whoa there!
> You are not suggesting that this leader made the district look silly > are you?
> The district looks silly because of it own (non) doing.
Oh no, he had the backing of nearly everyone from the floor of the meeting. Not suggesting he did anything wrong! I agree that their failings were highlighted. However, there has been no AGM this year yet (2 months later than normal now and approaching the December deadline!) - perhaps a sign that they expect a similar or more forceful reaction this year!!!
>> After the AGM the Chief Commissioner berated the District Chairman and >> District Commissioner for allowing AOB.
> If I was the CC I would have taken the DC aside and given him a > metaphorically good arse kicking.
Now I'm confused? Why?
> If people want to 'stage-manage' these AGMs then fine go ahead, but > don't expect anyone else will turn up or contribute.
Attendance had been diminishing. Most came for the the post AGM meet in the pub (after the official tea and coffee) to conduct the unofficial review of the year!
> The DC runs a district in one of three ways:
> 1. Autocratically and despotically. Scare the shit out of leaders, > threaten them with the teal black helicopters, etc, and see where it > gets you. You can get lucky and succeed and have every leader feeding > out of your hand. Or you can get unlucky and get to be shown up as a > tyrannical shit. Lose the support of GSLs and the CC finds out then > the DC is dead duck. Do you feel lucky punk?
Nope, not in my situation! ;-)
> 2. With the support of others, especially the ADCs and GSLs.
> 3. Mostly 2 but with a little bit of 3 at times.
> I saw a lot of 3.
Think you got the numbers wrong there, but I know what you mean.
Not seen a lot of support from GSLs and the ADCs are mostly the old boys club! (See Vision 2018)
>On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:22:11 -0000, Ewan Scott <ewansc...@btinternet.com> >wrote:
>> Not having AOB at an AGM distances the Exec from the Scout Council and >> gives it free reign to do as it pleases. That is NEVER a good thing.
>> If the parents don't turn up at the AGM, if they don't ask questions, >> then that's fine, but they must have the opportunity in order to >> actually give the Exec a mandate to do its work. Without AoB, without >> open discussion, the Exec is just a Junta running a mini-dictatorship.
>Have to agree.
>The last District AGM I was at was attended by the Chief Commissioner.
>One leader (from a different group) asked the only question under AOB - as >to whether District Scouters Meeting were to be restarted.
>As there were no district Scouters meetings, (no GSL meetings, no >nothing!) at the time, he had no opportunity to raise this issue at any >other meeting.
>With invited guests in attendance (local police and fire chief, lord >provost etc...) the district was made to look as though it didn't >communicate with it's own leaders (which was and probably still is the >case)
>After the AGM the Chief Commissioner berated the District Chairman and >District Commissioner for allowing AOB.
>I found it incredible. I still do. I wholeheartedly agree with you Ewan!
>People loose touch so very quickly when a committee starts a meeting!
>Never seen true open discussion in Scouting except with young people, or, >with adults in a social setting(!)
I believe that inviting non-Scouting VIP guests is not appropriate for an AGM. There presence inhibits any questions from the floor. My old District always invited our MP. The only questions asked were on the clarification of the Accounts. I imagine nobody wanted to embarrass the DEC by asking any questions.
I think the place for inviting non-Scouting gVIP uests is to presentation of awards evenings and District activities etc
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