I'm fed up to the back teeth with the misleading information being given out by the media about the new 'safety law' which comes into being after 1st January next year. As an example, the BBC 'Good Homes' magazine states: "If you're thinking of tackling the electrics in your home DIY style, think again - from 1st January 2005 it will be illegal. The National Council for Electrical Installation Contracting (NICEIC) has passed a new safety law that renders all electrical work done by yourself, or an unregistered electrician, illegal."
Similarly it has just been announced on Classic FM news that DIY electrical work will be illegal after 1st January. This is complete and utter cobblers. The new law specifically exempts 'minor' electrical work such as adding extra power points and/or lighting points - and on the whole this is the sort of work that DIY electricians undertake. Only major work such as adding complete new circuits and work undertaken in bathrooms and kitchens comes within the new laws. Even the work that *is* covered by the new regulations is not prohibited to DIY'ers - anyone wishing to carry out such work has to notify the authorities and have the work inspected. Hardly *illegal* ??
> Installation Contracting (NICEIC) has passed a new safety law that renders > all electrical work done by yourself, or an unregistered electrician, > illegal."
And since when was Parliament replaced by the NICEIC?
Because it's been a long time since most of the media retained an expert in most subject I suspect, the average 'hack' could be writing copy on dog crap one day and cookery the next....
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:40:11 -0000, "Peter Crosland"
<g6...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > The National Council for Electrical >> Installation Contracting (NICEIC) has passed a new safety law that renders >> all electrical work done by yourself, or an unregistered electrician, >> illegal."
>And since when was Parliament replaced by the NICEIC?
>Because it's been a long time since most of the media retained an expert in >most subject I suspect, the average 'hack' could be writing copy on dog crap >one day and cookery the next....
> >Because it's been a long time since most of the media retained an expert in > >most subject I suspect, the average 'hack' could be writing copy on dog crap > >one day and cookery the next....
> Or - "why spoil a good story with the truth".
Trouble is, these (part time subject) hacks spoil a good story even when the truth makes it a good story...
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:23:16 -0000, "Uno Hoo!" <k...@dropthisbigfoot.com> strung together this:
>Why can the media never get anything right?
Yet if I went to a customers property and said "you can't do that, it's illegal. I'll have to charge you for doing that" I'd end up on electricians from hell or somesuch shite. It's the little people that are getting trampled on again. --
SJW A.C.S. Ltd Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject
> On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:40:11 -0000, "Peter Crosland" > <g6...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > The National Council for Electrical > >> Installation Contracting (NICEIC) has passed a new safety law that renders > >> all electrical work done by yourself, or an unregistered electrician, > >> illegal."
> >And since when was Parliament replaced by the NICEIC?
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 16:31:23 +0000, :::Jerry:::: wrote:
> "Mike" <mailveil-use...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:p09hq090vtppsau6ls5n5bm33ds0ml4i4t@4ax.com... >> This is in reply to message of Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:44:57 -0000, >> ":::Jerry::::" <m...@privacy.net> which said:
>> >Because it's been a long time since most of the media retained an expert > in >> >most subject I suspect, the average 'hack' could be writing copy on dog > crap >> >one day and cookery the next....
>> Or - "why spoil a good story with the truth".
> Trouble is, these (part time subject) hacks spoi1l a good story even when the > truth makes it a good story...
Well this morning there was a _mostly_ balanced item on this subject on the Today program on R4.
It did cover the subject accurately except for mentioning several times that the regulations were designed to 'save lives' from dodgy wiring. As if people are dropping like flies from fixed wiring faults.
It left as an open question weather the BCOs would be able to meet the demand for inspections. It also mentioned the (nigh on certain IMHO) fact that diy electricals will go underground. It failed to mention that professional competant electrical work will very likely also do so.
Even if you agree with the idea that electrical work should be regulated the _timing_ of this introduction is arguably in error.
1) All the technical trades are currently subject to severe labour shortages. 2) The regulatory organizations have no incentive to expand. 3) The is a massive culture of diy elecrical work.
The introduction needed to be preceeded by a period where people have a chance to get the exam passes and join ECA/NICEIC volutarily. Making it known where and how to become qualified. Rather than leave it to peopl who are already very busy to find out for themselves.
The changes needed to be after a period of recuitment for the BC Office to get the inspectors they need. After January the LAs will need to recruit inspectors form amonst whom? qualified electricians! This will only make the labour shortages even worse!
Finally they needed to introduce this in the middle of a slump in building work not a boom.
I have it on good authority that a law which is not enforceable is not a law.
> On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 16:31:23 +0000, :::Jerry:::: wrote:
> Well this morning there was a _mostly_ balanced item on this subject on > the Today program on R4.
> It did cover the subject accurately except for mentioning several times > that the regulations were designed to 'save lives' from dodgy wiring. > As if people are dropping like flies from fixed wiring faults.
The Government are now giving publicity to Part P - unlike the way it was kept relatively quiet from the "person in the street" during the consulatation process! Would it have gone ahead had it received publicity then?
James
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<k...@dropthisbigfoot.com> wrote: >I'm fed up to the back teeth with the misleading information being given out >by the media about the new 'safety law' which comes into being after 1st >January next year. >As an example, the BBC 'Good Homes' magazine states: "If you're thinking of >tackling the electrics in your home DIY style, think again - from 1st >January 2005 it will be illegal. The National Council for Electrical >Installation Contracting (NICEIC) has passed a new safety law that renders >all electrical work done by yourself, or an unregistered electrician, >illegal."
>Similarly it has just been announced on Classic FM news that DIY electrical >work will be illegal after 1st January. This is complete and utter >cobblers. The new law specifically exempts 'minor' electrical work such as >adding extra power points and/or lighting points - and on the whole this is >the sort of work that DIY electricians undertake. Only major work such as >adding complete new circuits and work undertaken in bathrooms and kitchens >comes within the new laws. Even the work that *is* covered by the new >regulations is not prohibited to DIY'ers - anyone wishing to carry out such >work has to notify the authorities and have the work inspected. Hardly >*illegal* ??
Hi,
What happens if you don't have a 'competent person' to do the necessary work, or don't have it inspected? Can you expect 'a knock on the door in the night'...?
> What happens if you don't have a 'competent person' to do the > necessary work, or don't have it inspected? Can you expect 'a knock on > the door in the night'...?
With buyers packs and pre sale surveying etc. that is around or planned, I *suspect* you won't be able to sell the property. -- From address changed due to the individual.net FAQ / AUP changing.
>>I'm fed up to the back teeth with the misleading information being given out >>by the media about the new 'safety law' which comes into being after 1st >>January next year. >>As an example, the BBC 'Good Homes' magazine states: "If you're thinking of >>tackling the electrics in your home DIY style, think again - from 1st >>January 2005 it will be illegal. The National Council for Electrical >>Installation Contracting (NICEIC) has passed a new safety law that renders >>all electrical work done by yourself, or an unregistered electrician, >>illegal."
>>Similarly it has just been announced on Classic FM news that DIY electrical >>work will be illegal after 1st January. This is complete and utter >>cobblers. The new law specifically exempts 'minor' electrical work such as >>adding extra power points and/or lighting points - and on the whole this is >>the sort of work that DIY electricians undertake. Only major work such as >>adding complete new circuits and work undertaken in bathrooms and kitchens >>comes within the new laws. Even the work that *is* covered by the new >>regulations is not prohibited to DIY'ers - anyone wishing to carry out such >>work has to notify the authorities and have the work inspected. Hardly >>*illegal* ??
>Hi,
>What happens if you don't have a 'competent person' to do the >necessary work, or don't have it inspected? Can you expect 'a knock on >the door in the night'...?
>cheers, >Pete.
Oh, definitely.
BCOs have been issued with heavy leather uniforms and detector vans. :-)
The reality is that nothing will happen unless/until:
- Somebody informs building control. However, wiring is a lot less conspicuous than an extension.
- Some building work involving building control is started and they notice. Unlikely.
- Something bad happens like a fire.
- You want to sell the house. The buyer's solicitor will ask for certificates or ask if any wiring without inspection has been done. Presumably you would answer truthfully. A survey with electrical inspection would be done and corrections made if required, then a certificate issued.
>Subject: Re: DIY electrical work after 1st January 2005 >From: Andy Hall an...@hall.nospam >Date: 27/11/04 20:35 GMT Standard Time >Message-id: <uvohq0ts8pi533kuf8iegnsj9rehjcf...@4ax.com>
>On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:10:51 +0000, Pete C <petecn...@gmail.com> >wrote:
>>>I'm fed up to the back teeth with the misleading information being given >out >>>by the media about the new 'safety law' which comes into being after 1st >>>January next year. >>>As an example, the BBC 'Good Homes' magazine states: "If you're thinking of
>>>tackling the electrics in your home DIY style, think again - from 1st >>>January 2005 it will be illegal. The National Council for Electrical >>>Installation Contracting (NICEIC) has passed a new safety law that renders >>>all electrical work done by yourself, or an unregistered electrician, >>>illegal."
>>>Similarly it has just been announced on Classic FM news that DIY electrical
>>>work will be illegal after 1st January. This is complete and utter >>>cobblers. The new law specifically exempts 'minor' electrical work such as >>>adding extra power points and/or lighting points - and on the whole this is
>>>the sort of work that DIY electricians undertake. Only major work such as >>>adding complete new circuits and work undertaken in bathrooms and kitchens >>>comes within the new laws. Even the work that *is* covered by the new >>>regulations is not prohibited to DIY'ers - anyone wishing to carry out such
>>>work has to notify the authorities and have the work inspected. Hardly >>>*illegal* ??
>>Hi,
>>What happens if you don't have a 'competent person' to do the >>necessary work, or don't have it inspected? Can you expect 'a knock on >>the door in the night'...?
>>cheers, >>Pete.
>Oh, definitely.
>BCOs have been issued with heavy leather uniforms and detector vans. >:-)
>The reality is that nothing will happen unless/until:
>- Somebody informs building control. However, wiring is a lot less >conspicuous than an extension.
>- Some building work involving building control is started and they >notice. Unlikely.
>- Something bad happens like a fire.
>- You want to sell the house. The buyer's solicitor will ask for >certificates or ask if any wiring without inspection has been done. >Presumably you would answer truthfully. A survey with electrical >inspection would be done and corrections made if required, then a >certificate issued.
So you just say that any wiring changes were made before 1.1.2005 or by the previous owner or by a competent electrician whose details you seem to have lost while you were packing the house contents and no one will be any the wiser. Other than people who go out of their way to inform the local council they are about to make wiring changes I see no way of this legislation being enforceable. I'm certainly not going to pay it a moment's notice.
> > What happens if you don't have a 'competent person' to do the > > necessary work, or don't have it inspected? Can you expect 'a knock on > > the door in the night'...?
> With buyers packs and pre sale surveying etc. that is around or planned, I > *suspect* you won't be able to sell the property.
Didn't the House of Lords win the argument on this one and scrap/delay it ?
Uno Hoo! wrote: > Why can the media never get anything right?
Like the Daily Express which told us this week that "DIY electrical work will invalidate your home insurance policy" and that the wiring colours are changing to Blue for neutral and Black for live!!!!!
> I'm fed up to the back teeth with the misleading information being given out > by the media about the new 'safety law' which comes into being after 1st > January next year. > As an example, the BBC 'Good Homes' magazine states: "If you're thinking of > tackling the electrics in your home DIY style, think again - from 1st > January 2005 it will be illegal. The National Council for Electrical > Installation Contracting (NICEIC) has passed a new safety law that renders > all electrical work done by yourself, or an unregistered electrician, > illegal."
> Similarly it has just been announced on Classic FM news that DIY electrical > work will be illegal after 1st January. This is complete and utter > cobblers. The new law specifically exempts 'minor' electrical work such as > adding extra power points and/or lighting points - and on the whole this is > the sort of work that DIY electricians undertake. Only major work such as > adding complete new circuits and work undertaken in bathrooms and kitchens > comes within the new laws. Even the work that *is* covered by the new > regulations is not prohibited to DIY'ers - anyone wishing to carry out such > work has to notify the authorities and have the work inspected. Hardly > *illegal* ??
> Why can the media never get anything right?
> Kev
Whilst I'm generally with you on the irritation of press inaccuracies (and the Beeb is just as bad as the rest), this might actually work against the government in this case. The downside is that they will probably choose to ignore the heart of the argument, and talk about press inaccuracies instead.
The thing that really pisses me off is that this should have come out 6 months ago, when there might have been a chance to do somethign about it.
>> What happens if you don't have a 'competent person' to do the >> necessary work, or don't have it inspected? Can you expect 'a knock on >> the door in the night'...?
> With buyers packs and pre sale surveying etc. that is around or planned, I > *suspect* you won't be able to sell the property.
You'll just answer the question in the sellers pack about certification for electrical work with "no certificates are available" and the buyer can then get their own inspection. Or you pay for an inspection before you get the sellers pack and include that. Either way as long as you've done the work to current regs then nothing to worry about. An electrical inspection fee is small change in the context of the ~£10k it costs to move house these days.
As always, if the buyer wants the house, they'll buy the house. There is no law stopping a house being sold if it doesn't have the relevant certificates for work done on it.
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:10:51 +0000, Pete C wrote: > Hi,
> What happens if you don't have a 'competent person' to do the necessary > work, or don't have it inspected? Can you expect 'a knock on the door in > the night'...?
> cheers, > Pete.
Doubt it... I certainly do not plan to pay for certification everytime I do something, which is likley to be lots of small jobs over the course of time.
I can't afford to pay a sparky for something I am well competant to do (unlike say, plastering, which I'm crap at, or plumbing if it means taking the entire CH to bits as opposed to running a couple of pipes).
So, if I see something that looks iffy, do I a) leave it as I can't afford a sparky or b) fix it??? Guess.
Someone earlier this year suggested a real beauty to tell the buyers solicitor in the event of enquiries to relevant certification. It went roughly thus:
"I know of no material deviations from the IEE Wiring Regulations. However if the buyer wishes to see certification or otherwise assure themselves, they are most welcome to arrange an inspection of their choice for which they will pay."
In other words, business as usual.
I expect Councils are too busy to randomly start poking around with this sort of thing. So they only other times it will come up AFAICS will be:
a) BCO down due to other works. He's unlikely to inspect beyond the job in hand. And with the cock up in colour changes, nothing is going to be obvious anyway.
b) Fire or electrocution and it's found out that you made a pigs ear of electrical work. But that's always been the case... I think if the police are about to bust you for making an installation dangerous and killing someone, after the amount of grief you'll be getting, Part P evasion will be the least of your worries. And if you're that useless with electrical work, you shouldn't be doing it at all.
Not a legal opinion, just mine.
Or go on a certification course and hire the equipment and do it yourself. Are there any C&G courses for this?
>>> What happens if you don't have a 'competent person' to do the >>> necessary work, or don't have it inspected? Can you expect 'a knock on >>> the door in the night'...?
>> With buyers packs and pre sale surveying etc. that is around or planned, >> I >> *suspect* you won't be able to sell the property.
> You'll just answer the question in the sellers pack about certification > for electrical work with "no certificates are available" and the buyer > can then get their own inspection. Or you pay for an inspection before > you get the sellers pack and include that. Either way as long as you've > done the work to current regs then nothing to worry about. An > electrical inspection fee is small change in the context of the ~£10k it > costs to move house these days.
> As always, if the buyer wants the house, they'll buy the house. There > is no law stopping a house being sold if it doesn't have the relevant > certificates for work done on it.
In any case - how can anyone prove just 'when' the work was carried out?
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