> Purely out of interest, can someone with reasonable elec. quals and > experience > now not do domestic wiring beyond what has just been described by the > other > posters here?
I am a qualified practising Electrician with qualifications in the Wiring Regulations and Inspection and Testing of Electrical Installations. On 1st January I will need to get a building inspector to check that I have replaced a Socket Outlet in my kitchen correctly. The building inspector will probably be less qualified and experienced than myself. But its ok for me to replace someone else's Socket Outlet in their kitchen as long as I am working for a registered Electrician.
I cant go self employed because you have to be in business 6 months before been able to register with one of the schemes.
> Electrical apprenticeship (industrial) in the 70's (5 years + day release > CGLI > full tech cert (probably considered worthless today). Mainly 3ph. high > current > motor controllers, & industrial plant etc to elec. instrumentation and > domestic > wiring in the companies own housing. I'm still reasonably utd on the > theory but > way ood on the regulations. I also have a degree in elec. eng. (B.Sc) - > but for > most of the interviening years I've been involved in computer sodware (no > typo).
> Heading for retirement I did think of maybe returning to my short circuits > days > (part time) - but looks like the government has pressed the big RED > button. Are > there any exemptions possible? I don't really want to have to spend ££££££ > on > some registration scheme. Maybe I'll just sign on as unemployed instead > :-)
One point not often made is that you do not need to be a qualified Electrician to register with one of the part p schemes. Kitchen fitters plumbers etc will be allowed into the fold as long as they hand over the wad of cash and go on one of the courses.
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:34:58 +0000, Owain wrote: > "Tim S" wrote > | Or go on a certification course and hire the equipment and do it > | yourself.
> The point about this regulation is that you *cannot* do this.
> | Are there any C&G courses for this?
> (Yes, but) Irrelevant. You do not have to be qualified. You just have to > be a member of NICEIC or similar scheme.
> Owain
This came up before in a thread some weeks ago. I remember the consensus was that what you say is certainly true in the case of work done for reward.
That is, Pro's can only self certify by being NECEIC members.
The conclusion on doing DIY work was inconclusive, though a strong argument was made that anyone could certify their own work (for DIY) as long as they "were competant" to quote the IEE regs.
I'm the sort of bloke who if I were going to do this, might be interested in doing a specific course (assuming it's one of those 2-3 day things), then at least I can do it right.
I have no moral objection to installation testing per se, just in it being suggested that I have to pay someone else to do it every 6 months when I touch something.
I beg to differ, but I think the case of who can certify what for DIY work is still as clear as mud AFAICS.
All that's sparked this discussion off are a few media reports of varying quality. I think it's important to note that no new information of consequence is available.
I've seen nothing substantial enough, recently, to change my opinion.
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:02:00 -0000, "fred" <wd88jq...@sneakemail.com> strung together this:
>I am a qualified practising Electrician with qualifications in the Wiring >Regulations and Inspection and Testing of Electrical Installations. On 1st >January I will need to get a building inspector to check that I have >replaced a Socket Outlet in my kitchen correctly. The building inspector >will probably be less qualified and experienced than myself. But its ok for >me to replace someone else's Socket Outlet in their kitchen as long as I am >working for a registered Electrician.
>I cant go self employed because you have to be in business 6 months before >been able to register with one of the schemes.
I've just decided not to bother, I can't work out what's meant to be happening, but whatever it is it'll cost me money so fuck it, I'll just stop doing electrical work. I'd much rather devote my time to the data\telecoms\security side of my business anyway. I'll still be doing my own work in my own house though, once part p is deemed to be a total mess of confusion and extortion it'll be scrapped. (Actually it won't will it, it'll be ammended so that it costs more to be involved in it but makes no difference to safety). --
SJW A.C.S. Ltd Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject
"Tim S" wrote | The conclusion on doing DIY work was inconclusive, though a strong | argument was made that anyone could certify their own work (for DIY) | as long as they "were competant" to quote the IEE regs.
That is for GAS. (Not the IEE regs bit, but the "competent" criterion.) There is NO requirement for competence under Part P. After all, they're allowing NIC-only-one-person-in-a-firm-needs-a-qualification-EIC to self-certify.
(The main reason for a CORGI to sign off DIY gas heating installation is not the Gas Safety Regulations but Part L requiring somebody to sign that you've put thermostatic radiator valves in, and to qualify for some manufacturer's warranties on the boiler.)
| I'm the sort of bloke who if I were going to do this, might be interested | in doing a specific course (assuming it's one of those 2-3 day things), | then at least I can do it right.
The IEE do 2-3 day courses. However, you would also need the apppropriate test equipment which must be calibrated periodically.
| I beg to differ, but I think the case of who can certify what for DIY work | is still as clear as mud AFAICS.
It's quite clear(ish). One of the following applies:
- the work is within the definition of permitted work[1], not in a kitchen or bathroom or other specified location - DIY permitted, providing work complies with the Readers Digest Picture Book of Sockets and Switches. - the work is carried out by a person [whose employer is] registered with a certification body eg NICEIC - operative self-certifies - anything else, a building regulations application to the council is required
Much like windows with FENSA, etc.
Owain
[1] This is not necessarily the same as that covered by the IEE's "minor works" form of certificate
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:02:00 -0000, "fred" <wd88jq...@sneakemail.com> > strung together this:
>>I am a qualified practising Electrician with qualifications in the Wiring >>Regulations and Inspection and Testing of Electrical Installations. On 1st >>January I will need to get a building inspector to check that I have >>replaced a Socket Outlet in my kitchen correctly. The building inspector >>will probably be less qualified and experienced than myself. But its ok for >>me to replace someone else's Socket Outlet in their kitchen as long as I am >>working for a registered Electrician.
>>I cant go self employed because you have to be in business 6 months before >>been able to register with one of the schemes.
> I've just decided not to bother, I can't work out what's meant to be > happening, but whatever it is it'll cost me money so fuck it, I'll > just stop doing electrical work. I'd much rather devote my time to the > data\telecoms\security side of my business anyway.
That's all covered by Part P in the home and it doesn't come under the list of exemptions in Table 1. I did mention in my original response during the consultation period that Part P should only cover Low Voltage (which is standard mains voltage), but my comments were ignored and it also encompasses all Extra Low Voltage, i.e. data/telecoms/security/aerials/etc. and none of these are listed in the exclusions from needing an accredited installer or a building notice. So you might want to make sure you get your structured Cat5 and phone extentions installed before year end ;-)
> That's all covered by Part P in the home and it doesn't come > under the list of exemptions in Table 1. I did mention in my > original response during the consultation period that Part P > should only cover Low Voltage (which is standard mains voltage), > but my comments were ignored and it also encompasses all Extra > Low Voltage, i.e. data/telecoms/security/aerials/etc. and none > of these are listed in the exclusions from needing an accredited > installer or a building notice. So you might want to make sure > you get your structured Cat5 and phone extentions installed > before year end ;-)
Do the traditional operators - such as BT - have membership of an appropriate approved body? On second thoughts this is a silly question - to meet the requirements only one of their thousands of employees needs to be a member for the organisation as a whole to qualify.
James
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On 28 Nov 2004 21:27:46 GMT, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) strung together this:
>>I'd much rather devote my time to the >> data\telecoms\security side of my business anyway.
>That's all covered by Part P in the home and it doesn't come >under the list of exemptions in Table 1. I did mention in my >original response during the consultation period that Part P >should only cover Low Voltage (which is standard mains voltage), >but my comments were ignored and it also encompasses all Extra >Low Voltage, i.e. data/telecoms/security/aerials/etc. and none >of these are listed in the exclusions from needing an accredited >installer or a building notice.
So I'm basically fucked whatever I do then, unless I go on the dole. In summary, if I do anything that involves a piece of wire then I need to be a member of a trade body? Does the SSAIB count? --
SJW A.C.S. Ltd Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject
<theoriginallu...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: >On 28 Nov 2004 21:27:46 GMT, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew >Gabriel) strung together this:
>>>I'd much rather devote my time to the >>> data\telecoms\security side of my business anyway.
>>That's all covered by Part P in the home and it doesn't come >>under the list of exemptions in Table 1. I did mention in my >>original response during the consultation period that Part P >>should only cover Low Voltage (which is standard mains voltage), >>but my comments were ignored and it also encompasses all Extra >>Low Voltage, i.e. data/telecoms/security/aerials/etc. and none >>of these are listed in the exclusions from needing an accredited >>installer or a building notice.
>So I'm basically fucked whatever I do then, unless I go on the dole. >In summary, if I do anything that involves a piece of wire then I need >to be a member of a trade body? Does the SSAIB count?
Why don't you contact them and ask them to take up your cause. Chances are, theyu haven't even thought about it.
When you're wiring an alarm panel, do you normally power it from a spur? If so, you can still do that, since it's exempted, but presumably not if a new circuit were needed...
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:22:27 +0000, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> strung together this:
>Why don't you contact them and ask them to take up your cause. >Chances are, theyu haven't even thought about it.
Yes, I'll look into a bit more tomorrow.
>When you're wiring an alarm panel, do you normally power it from a >spur? If so, you can still do that, since it's exempted, but >presumably not if a new circuit were needed...
I already got that one figured, which is a PITA as I prefer to run the alarm panel on a dedicated non RCD'd radial rather than off of a RCD'd ring. Oh well, the pro's get shafted again while the cowboys go on as normal not giving a feck. --
SJW A.C.S. Ltd Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:44:34 +0000, Owain wrote: > "Tim S" wrote > | The conclusion on doing DIY work was inconclusive, though a strong > | argument was made that anyone could certify their own work (for DIY) as > | long as they "were competant" to quote the IEE regs.
> That is for GAS. (Not the IEE regs bit, but the "competent" criterion.) > There is NO requirement for competence under Part P. After all, they're > allowing NIC-only-one-person-in-a-firm-needs-a-qualification-EIC to > self-certify.
?
Must be talking at cross purposes. Could be me, in which case I apologise.
> (The main reason for a CORGI to sign off DIY gas heating installation is > not the Gas Safety Regulations but Part L requiring somebody to sign that > you've put thermostatic radiator valves in, and to qualify for some > manufacturer's warranties on the boiler.)
> | I'm the sort of bloke who if I were going to do this, might be > | interested in doing a specific course (assuming it's one of those 2-3 > | day things), then at least I can do it right.
> The IEE do 2-3 day courses. However, you would also need the apppropriate > test equipment which must be calibrated periodically.
Hireable I'm sure. For a fee. Which even for this should be less than a NECEIC bod doing it (£150 +/-50??)
> | I beg to differ, but I think the case of who can certify what for DIY > | work is still as clear as mud AFAICS.
> It's quite clear(ish). One of the following applies:
> - the work is within the definition of permitted work[1], not in a kitchen > or bathroom or other specified location - DIY permitted, providing work > complies with the Readers Digest Picture Book of Sockets and Switches. - > the work is carried out by a person [whose employer is] registered with a > certification body eg NICEIC - operative self-certifies - anything else, a > building regulations application to the council is required
I'm clear on this bit - "what type of work needs certifying".
I'm not at all clear on who can certify at the end of works for which a BR application was made.
a) Hire-for-reward professional sparky - must be NECEIC member in the firm, I think. Reasonably clear.
b) DIYer - not at all clear to me after following this discussion for months.
I've seen opinions varying from "get a bloke who could do a) to certify your work" to "anyone can write out an IEE test cert if they are competant and have correct calibrated test gear" to "random CEng/MIEE with test gear".
The last option was indicated verbally to me be be acceptable by one senior BCO. I hadn't asked about "certificate written out by anyone competant".
Assuming that for DIY, one does do a BR notification where required, what seems highly unclear is who is allowed to certify your work (you/a random engineer/paid-NECEIC-sparky). I suspect that will be subject to much variation depending on council.
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:29:10 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
<cmcardl...@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk> wrote: >> I cant go self employed because you have to be in business 6 months before >> been able to register with one of the schemes.
>Yes. You must have been a member for 6 months before you are allowed to >join. Medieval guild pure and simple.
>Christian.
I wonder if they have initiation ceremonies. Rolling up of trouser legs, that type of thing......
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:29:10 -0000, "Christian McArdle" <cmcardl...@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk> strung together this:
>> I cant go self employed because you have to be in business 6 months before >> been able to register with one of the schemes.
>Yes. You must have been a member for 6 months before you are allowed to >join. Medieval guild pure and simple.
Arse about face, as usual. At some point in the future, if you set up a business you will have a 6 month minimum period in which you are technically incompetent in the eyes of some twat in a suit who doesn't know his arse from his elbow which means that you can't do any work and you can't leave the house as the insurance poklicy you took out will be invalid. When you apply for membership you will then be assessed on the previous work that you have done, i.e. making some toast. --
SJW A.C.S. Ltd Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:27:46 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote: > That's all covered by Part P in the home and it doesn't come > under the list of exemptions in Table 1. I did mention in my > original response during the consultation period that Part P > should only cover Low Voltage (which is standard mains voltage), > but my comments were ignored and it also encompasses all Extra > Low Voltage, i.e. data/telecoms/security/aerials/etc. and none > of these are listed in the exclusions from needing an accredited > installer or a building notice. So you might want to make sure > you get your structured Cat5 and phone extentions installed > before year end ;-)
Blimey, Part P is dead before it's been launched! It is unenforceable, imcompetant governance, and going to be observed in the breach.
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:31:52 +0000, :::Jerry:::: wrote:
> With buyers packs and pre sale surveying etc. that is around or planned, I > *suspect* you won't be able to sell the property. > --
What I think will happen is that two housing markets will develop - a fully certified & in A1 condition. Which the younger, better and well refurbished houses will tend to belong to. The less informed, the wealthier and the less adventurous (in any combination) will buy these.
The other market will be for those who have to, wish to or want to buy 'uncertified' property. Which might be anything from a house with needs a rewire to one which need rebuilding.
In article <codj5r$qn...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, "James" <jamesnospam14...@hotmail.com> writes:
> Do the traditional operators - such as BT - have membership of an > appropriate approved body? On second thoughts this is a silly question - to > meet the requirements only one of their thousands of employees needs to be a > member for the organisation as a whole to qualify.
Doesn't answer your question, but when I did 16th Edition regs, there were a couple of BT engineers on the course. Actually, only about half the attendees were electricians; the others were telecom engingeers (not just BT), alarm installers, heating installers, someone working on street lamps, etc. The irony was that most of the electricians were having a hard time following it, whereas all the other trades were following along with no difficulty at all. I don't actually know who passed and who didn't, although a couple of the electricians did comment this was not their first attempt. The same happened on the PAT Testing course -- it was the electricions who didn't know the difference between milliohms and megohms, something which the course teacher teased them about several times, and commented that this was normally the case whenever he tought the course.
>> Do the traditional operators - such as BT - have membership of an >> appropriate approved body? On second thoughts this is a silly question - to >> meet the requirements only one of their thousands of employees needs to be a >> member for the organisation as a whole to qualify.
>Doesn't answer your question, but when I did 16th Edition >regs, there were a couple of BT engineers on the course. >Actually, only about half the attendees were electricians; >the others were telecom engingeers (not just BT), alarm >installers, heating installers, someone working on street >lamps, etc. The irony was that most of the electricians >were having a hard time following it, whereas all the >other trades were following along with no difficulty >at all. I don't actually know who passed and who didn't, >although a couple of the electricians did comment this >was not their first attempt. The same happened on the PAT >Testing course -- it was the electricions who didn't know >the difference between milliohms and megohms, something >which the course teacher teased them about several times, >and commented that this was normally the case whenever he >tought the course.
This is concerning but not surprising. If you're into one of these other trades, you have to know how to put a few more wires in the right place.
In article <pan.2004.11.29.22.08.25.373...@makewrite.demon.co.uk>,
Ed Sirett wrote: > What I think will happen is that two housing markets will > develop - a fully certified & in A1 condition. Which the > younger, better and well refurbished houses will tend to belong > to. The less informed, the wealthier and the less adventurous > (in any combination) will buy these. > The other market will be for those who have to, wish to or want > to buy 'uncertified' property. > Which might be anything from a house with needs a rewire to one > which need rebuilding.
IOW just like the secondhand car market - A1 Approved from a franchise dealer with price to match, or auction/small ads buyer beware. And as with cars you may find that the extra cost of compliance is recovered when you sell: what price a BMW "serviced by a mate" compared with FSH?
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:14:14 +0000, "Ed Sirett" <e...@makewrite.demon.co.uk> strung together this:
>Blimey, Part P is dead before it's been launched!
Yep, thankfully. I've just speaking to my Dad, (plumbing and haeting services etc..), and without any prompting he said exactly the same as me, by the time you've finished arsing around you'd be better off on the dole. The cowboys aren't going to stop because the price diference between them and a 'pro' will be even greater now, the same happened with CORGI, sort of, but not to the same extent of fuckedupedness as Part P. --
SJW A.C.S. Ltd Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject
Can anyone tell me where to find out exactly what jobs will need regs approval after 1/1/05? I've not installed any new circuits yet, but have greatly extended my ground floor ring main (from 3 sockets to 19 sockets, still within the floor area regulation). Apart from the fact that I've not had to fiddle with the CU, how does this differ from installing a new circuit in the eyes of the regulators? I plan to do something similar with the upstairs circuit next uear... What about the low-voltage halogen spots in the lounge? And the second switch for the hall light? And how will any inspector know what I did in '04 and what I did in '05?
Cheers
Tom
"Tony Bryer" <to...@delme.sda.co.uk> wrote in message
> In article <pan.2004.11.29.22.08.25.373...@makewrite.demon.co.uk>, > Ed Sirett wrote:
>> What I think will happen is that two housing markets will >> develop - a fully certified & in A1 condition. Which the >> younger, better and well refurbished houses will tend to belong >> to. The less informed, the wealthier and the less adventurous >> (in any combination) will buy these.
>> The other market will be for those who have to, wish to or want >> to buy 'uncertified' property. >> Which might be anything from a house with needs a rewire to one >> which need rebuilding.
> IOW just like the secondhand car market - A1 Approved from a > franchise dealer with price to match, or auction/small ads buyer > beware. And as with cars you may find that the extra cost of > compliance is recovered when you sell: what price a BMW "serviced > by a mate" compared with FSH?
> On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:31:52 +0000, :::Jerry:::: wrote: > The other market will be for those who have to, wish to or want to buy > 'uncertified' property. > Which might be anything from a house with needs a rewire to one which need > rebuilding.
But the irony is that a house with crumbling 50 year wiring which has not been touched requires no certification, whereas if the same house is competently DIY rewired without BCO approval it is regarded by the designers of Part P as dangerous.
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> Can anyone tell me where to find out exactly what jobs will need regs > approval after 1/1/05? I've not installed any new circuits yet, but have > greatly extended my ground floor ring main (from 3 sockets to 19 sockets, > still within the floor area regulation). Apart from the fact that I've not > had to fiddle with the CU, how does this differ from installing a new > circuit in the eyes of the regulators? I plan to do something similar with > the upstairs circuit next uear... What about the low-voltage halogen spots > in the lounge? And the second switch for the hall light? And how will any > inspector know what I did in '04 and what I did in '05?
> Cheers
> Tom
<snipped>
They won't know what's changed unless, blessings forbid, something drastic happens or you come sell the house in the future. The electrics, as well as all other services to the building, will need checking during the survey that the seller has to have done when the other new regs come to fruition. It is also being advised that, when the property comes up for sale or transfer, that the vendor has one full survey done on the property, and which will cover all changes to shape, layout and extension, and internal services supplied with the property.
This isn't just a change to the wiring requirements and the way these done. It's a change to the whole way that the properties are sold on to others. Instead of each individual would be buyer having their own survey done before an offer is made, the seller will have to have a full structural and plan layout survey of the property to hand to the buyer, to say that the house is and has been done to full safety and health standards.
These only look like small changes to each individual service, but it is actually a blanket change covering all aspects of the building and supply industries.
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:36:03 -0000, "Tom W" <tlw_NOS...@kma.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi
>Can anyone tell me where to find out exactly what jobs will need regs >approval after 1/1/05?
You can look at the Statutory Instrument, or the Approved Document on the ODPM web site.
> I've not installed any new circuits yet, but have >greatly extended my ground floor ring main (from 3 sockets to 19 sockets, >still within the floor area regulation). Apart from the fact that I've not >had to fiddle with the CU, how does this differ from installing a new >circuit in the eyes of the regulators?
This will not be an exempted work. You are allowed to add a spur or replace a faulty cable or wiring accessories and be exempt but that's about it.
You can still do the work yourself but then you have to have it inspected by informing the building control department at the local authority,
> I plan to do something similar with >the upstairs circuit next uear... What about the low-voltage halogen spots >in the lounge?
Even extra low voltage isn't exempted. AFAICS, there is nothing that even excludes a doorbell.
>And the second switch for the hall light? And how will any >inspector know what I did in '04 and what I did in '05?
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