I have two large and intricate new timber windows to paint, before installation. They were supplied with the glazing loosely fitted, so I could remove it and all beading, etc., and paint all the bits.
Could anyone recommend a good wood primer that comes in aerosol cans? That would speed things up considerably. As would an aerosol top coat, come to think of it (satin or matt).
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:48:43 -0700, geraldthehamster wrote: > I have two large and intricate new timber windows to paint, before > installation. They were supplied with the glazing loosely fitted, so I > could remove it and all beading, etc., and paint all the bits.
> Could anyone recommend a good wood primer that comes in aerosol cans? > That would speed things up considerably. As would an aerosol top coat, > come to think of it (satin or matt).
> Your recommendations welcome.
> Regards > Richard
================================== I would have reservations about spraying wooden windows; I think that primer needs to be brushed in no matter how tedious, but that may just be my old-fashioned prejudice. In any case I would suggest a good oil based primer rather than water based.
Cic.
-- =================================== Using Ubuntu Linux Windows shown the door ===================================
>> I have two large and intricate new timber windows to paint, before >> installation. They were supplied with the glazing loosely fitted, so I >> could remove it and all beading, etc., and paint all the bits.
>> Could anyone recommend a good wood primer that comes in aerosol cans? >> That would speed things up considerably. As would an aerosol top coat, >> come to think of it (satin or matt).
>> Your recommendations welcome.
>> Regards >> Richard
> ================================== > I would have reservations about spraying wooden windows; I think that > primer needs to be brushed in no matter how tedious, but that may just be > my old-fashioned prejudice. In any case I would suggest a good oil based > primer rather than water based.
> Cic.
I can't see that spraying would be significantly faster than brushing for 2 windows. If the glass is smooth you just tosh the paint everywhere and clean up with a window scraper. If it isn't, it's a tedious job whatever method you use, and masking isn't always that effective.
On Apr 16, 2:41 pm, Stuart Noble <stuart_nobleNOS...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I can't see that spraying would be significantly faster than brushing > for 2 windows. > If the glass is smooth you just tosh the paint everywhere and clean up > with a window scraper. If it isn't, it's a tedious job whatever method > you use, and masking isn't always that effective.- Hide quoted text -
With respect you miss the point. The windows are new and loosely assembled, and not installed. I will be removing the glazing, which is only loosely fixed. I will be left with two windows each with four hinged sashes with horizontal bars, and all the bits of beading, to sand and paint. Several times.
geraldthehamster wrote: > On Apr 16, 2:41 pm, Stuart Noble <stuart_nobleNOS...@ntlworld.com> > wrote:
>> I can't see that spraying would be significantly faster than brushing >> for 2 windows. >> If the glass is smooth you just tosh the paint everywhere and clean up >> with a window scraper. If it isn't, it's a tedious job whatever method >> you use, and masking isn't always that effective.- Hide quoted text -
> With respect you miss the point. The windows are new and loosely > assembled, and not installed. I will be removing the glazing, which is > only loosely fixed. I will be left with two windows each with four > hinged sashes with horizontal bars, and all the bits of beading, to > sand and paint. Several times.
> Regards > Richard
You still have to weigh up the time to set up and clean up afterwards, and the sanding will be the same whatever method. Primer/ undercoat is thick, and not ideally suited to spraying. You can thin it but the aggregate will either tend to settle out or it'll block the nozzle. OTOH car paints are designed to be sprayed but they're not flexible enough for wood IMO
> geraldthehamster wrote: > > On Apr 16, 2:41 pm, Stuart Noble <stuart_nobleNOS...@ntlworld.com> > > wrote:
> >> I can't see that spraying would be significantly faster than brushing > >> for 2 windows. > >> If the glass is smooth you just tosh the paint everywhere and clean up > >> with a window scraper. If it isn't, it's a tedious job whatever method > >> you use, and masking isn't always that effective.- Hide quoted text -
> > With respect you miss the point. The windows are new and loosely > > assembled, and not installed. I will be removing the glazing, which is > > only loosely fixed. I will be left with two windows each with four > > hinged sashes with horizontal bars, and all the bits of beading, to > > sand and paint. Several times.
> > Regards > > Richard
> You still have to weigh up the time to set up and clean up afterwards, > and the sanding will be the same whatever method. Primer/ undercoat is > thick, and not ideally suited to spraying. You can thin it but the > aggregate will either tend to settle out or it'll block the nozzle. OTOH > car paints are designed to be sprayed but they're not flexible enough > for wood IMO- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
I now have another problem, in that having seen the windows in proper daylight, I need to have serious words with the joiner about the quality. As in possibly rejecting them altogether ...
geraldthehamster wrote: > On Apr 16, 2:41 pm, Stuart Noble <stuart_nobleNOS...@ntlworld.com> > wrote:
>> I can't see that spraying would be significantly faster than brushing >> for 2 windows. >> If the glass is smooth you just tosh the paint everywhere and clean up >> with a window scraper. If it isn't, it's a tedious job whatever method >> you use, and masking isn't always that effective.- Hide quoted text -
> With respect you miss the point. The windows are new and loosely > assembled, and not installed. I will be removing the glazing, which is > only loosely fixed. I will be left with two windows each with four > hinged sashes with horizontal bars, and all the bits of beading, to > sand and paint. Several times.
> Regards > Richard
You cold use straight cellulose - car primer stuff.
The Natural Philosopher wrote: > You cold use straight cellulose - car primer stuff.
> Its not too bad.
> Then spray car paint on top.
Is this recommended for wood?
As mentioned in my previous post, this is becoming academic. I'm now waiting for a reply from the joiner to my list of "issues" with these windows. The tenons that hold the frame together are either too small (gaps) or too big (splintering the wood). There are therefore screws where screws shouldn't be needed. The profiles on the insides of the sashes are damaged at the ends (presumably where they've come off the machine). Generally the finish is poor and raggedy. At least 2 of the sashes are slightly warped. There are cracks in the ends of the sill - admittedly I'd be cutting those bits off, but this is indicative of the poor quality of the timber.
As it's hard to see how any of this can be rectified, I'm minded to reject them altogether. Fortunately I've only paid him half of the nearly two grand that they cost (2 casement windows, 2100 x 1000, four sashes in each, flush fitting, opening in pairs).
For the moment I've just mentioned the defects in a text message and am awaiting his response. Unless he comes up with a better suggestion, I will be inviting him to collect them, on return of my deposit. I'm glad I didn't tell him to take them away when he delivered them, or I'd be a grand down with no windows to bargain with.
Ah well. Will see how it pans out. Does anyone have any opinions on this sad situation?
>> You cold use straight cellulose - car primer stuff.
>> Its not too bad.
>> Then spray car paint on top.
> Is this recommended for wood?
> As mentioned in my previous post, this is becoming academic. I'm now > waiting for a reply from the joiner to my list of "issues" with these > windows. The tenons that hold the frame together are either too small > (gaps) or too big (splintering the wood). There are therefore screws > where screws shouldn't be needed. The profiles on the insides of the > sashes are damaged at the ends (presumably where they've come off the > machine). Generally the finish is poor and raggedy. At least 2 of the > sashes are slightly warped. There are cracks in the ends of the sill - > admittedly I'd be cutting those bits off, but this is indicative of > the poor quality of the timber.
> As it's hard to see how any of this can be rectified, I'm minded to > reject them altogether. Fortunately I've only paid him half of the > nearly two grand that they cost (2 casement windows, 2100 x 1000, four > sashes in each, flush fitting, opening in pairs).
> For the moment I've just mentioned the defects in a text message and > am awaiting his response. Unless he comes up with a better suggestion, > I will be inviting him to collect them, on return of my deposit. I'm > glad I didn't tell him to take them away when he delivered them, or > I'd be a grand down with no windows to bargain with.
> Ah well. Will see how it pans out. Does anyone have any opinions on > this sad situation?
> Regards > Richard
The ragged finish suggests the timber wasn't dry enough when it was machined. Are these softwood windows? What was the spec regarding the timber they would use?
Stuart Noble wrote: > The ragged finish suggests the timber wasn't dry enough when it was > machined. Are these softwood windows? What was the spec regarding the > timber they would use?
Softwood windows. No grade of timber was specified. I don't feel that's relevant to his ability to cut tenons accurately, or properly to finish his work ;-) These were two 2100 x 1000 flush-fitting casement windows, 4 opening sashes in each, to regs, at a cost of 1950 pounds.
I have the windows, and have paid a deposit of 1000 pounds, but not the balance. If I hear nothing from him by the weekend, I am going to send a letter, formally rejecting the goods, and giving him 14 days to return my deposit and take them away.
I suspect he won't be willing to do this. What I'm not sure of is the legal position if he doesn't refund my money, and I'm left holding the windows.
The mistake I made was to take someone else's recommendation without having seen any work, on the basis that he promised to be quicker than another joiner, whose work I have seen (and very good it is). I can't afford to commission replacements from the other joiner, without a refund here.
>> The ragged finish suggests the timber wasn't dry enough when it was >> machined. Are these softwood windows? What was the spec regarding the >> timber they would use?
> Softwood windows. No grade of timber was specified. I don't feel > that's relevant to his ability to cut tenons accurately, or properly > to finish his work ;-) These were two 2100 x 1000 flush-fitting > casement windows, 4 opening sashes in each, to regs, at a cost of > 1950 pounds.
> I have the windows, and have paid a deposit of 1000 pounds, but not > the balance. If I hear nothing from him by the weekend, I am going to > send a letter, formally rejecting the goods, and giving him 14 days to > return my deposit and take them away.
> I suspect he won't be willing to do this. What I'm not sure of is the > legal position if he doesn't refund my money, and I'm left holding the > windows.
If you feel redress is justified, you can take out a small claim against him in the county court (no such thing as a "small claims court"). This can be done on-line at a cost of £60, which the defendant pays if the action goes against him. Small claims are for failure to provide goods or services up to a loss limit of £5000. Having myself just had an "premium fit" for a kitchen, which wasn't, in my view, from a "well known kitchen and furniture supplier" (not to be confused with MI5), who told me "we don't pay compensation", I did this (asking for £1000) and they settled almost immediately for £650 out of court (just paid cheque in). Of course a small trader who has done a crap job but who is running at a loss now, may hold out more, but it's worth a try. County court claims outsanding against one are a business embarrassment. I would never suggest ltigation for profit as this is an appalling way to treat traders who are trying to make a living. Nonetheless, from your description of the windows, it *sounds* as if you have been robbed - in which case redress is justified. Only you (and the joiner) know the truth of the matter.
-- Bob Mannix (anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
> The mistake I made was to take someone else's recommendation without > having seen any work, on the basis that he promised to be quicker than > another joiner, whose work I have seen (and very good it is). I can't > afford to commission replacements from the other joiner, without a > refund here.
Bob Mannix wrote: > If you feel redress is justified, you can take out a small claim against him > in the county court
Thanks. I know about that, but your advice is welcome all the same. That's the legal avenue, but I'm reluctant to go down that route because of the delay it will cause, and the hassle in trying to get the money out of him at the end of it.
What would happen if I got a judgement and he declined to pay? Ultimately a bailiff could seize goods to the value (at auction, ie goods to more than the value). I already have goods in my possession that are worth what I have paid as a deposit. If the alternative is a lengthy legal process with an uncertain practical outcome, I'm inclined to keep them, fill and sand them and make use of them. It's possible that he might take this cutting of his losses as the best outcome, in any case. FWIW nothing was written down or witnessed, concerning the order. We'll see.
Bob Mannix wrote: > If you feel redress is justified, you can take out a small claim against him > in the county court
Thanks. I know about that, but your advice is welcome all the same. That's the legal avenue, but I'm reluctant to go down that route because of the delay it will cause, and the hassle in trying to get the money out of him at the end of it.
What would happen if I got a judgement and he declined to pay? Ultimately a bailiff could seize goods to the value (at auction, ie goods to more than the value). I already have goods in my possession that are worth what I have paid as a deposit. If the alternative is a lengthy legal process with an uncertain practical outcome, I'm inclined to keep them, fill and sand them and make use of them. It's possible that he might take this cutting of his losses as the best outcome, in any case. FWIW nothing was written down or witnessed, concerning the order. We'll see.
>> The ragged finish suggests the timber wasn't dry enough when it was >> machined. Are these softwood windows? What was the spec regarding the >> timber they would use?
> Softwood windows. No grade of timber was specified. I don't feel > that's relevant to his ability to cut tenons accurately, or properly > to finish his work ;-)
No, but it makes a difference as to whether they're worth having at half price (which may be the logical outcome if they actually fit the space).
"Softwood" is used to make pallets (and Magnet windows), as well as some very high class joinery in public buildings, so it's important to know which grade is being used. The normal spec for this type of job would be "unsorted European redwood", which is the quality you would expect in planed material from a reputable timber merchant i.e. tight grained, straight, with a finish that requires no extra preparation. That is probably going to cost the joiner twice the price of what he *could* get away with in the absence of a specification.
On 17 Apr, 18:27, Stuart Noble <stuart_nobleNOS...@ntlworld.com> wrote: (which may be the logical outcome if they actually fit the space).
> "Softwood" is used to make pallets (and Magnet windows), as well as some > very high class joinery in public buildings, so it's important to know > which grade is being used. The normal spec for this type of job would be > "unsorted European redwood", which is the quality you would expect in > planed material from a reputable timber merchant i.e. tight grained, > straight, with a finish that requires no extra preparation. That is > probably going to cost the joiner twice the price of what he *could* get > away with in the absence of a specification.
Quite. Well he ain't getting away with it in the absence of a specification on my shift ;-)
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