software_craftsmanship Google Group

Re: SPAM [SC] Re: QCon Session - "Danger: Software Craftsmen At Work"

da...@davethehat.com (David Harvey) — Mon, 12 Dec 2009 16:39:46 UT

Having kicked all this off, I have to say I'm very much aligned with Jason's
thinking on this, and on what Chris is saying. I _like_ craftsmanship with a
small-c, mentoring, coaching, pairing - all the words we're used to using
for describing the collaborative learning and teaching that goes on. It goes

Re: SPAM [SC] Re: QCon Session - "Danger: Software Craftsmen At Work"

ch...@edendevelopment.co.uk (Chris Parsons) — Mon, 12 Dec 2009 15:45:19 UT

2009/12/11 Jason Gorman <goo...@parlezuml.com>

Yes, exactly. It's all about who's doing the labelling and using verbs
not nouns IMO. No-one has the right to label others as "apprentices"
and themselves as "masters". If we use this metaphor as all, let's
make sure we're "apprenticing", and asking others to "mentor" us.

Re: SPAM [SC] Re: QCon Session - "Danger: Software Craftsmen At Work"

ch...@edendevelopment.co.uk (Chris Parsons) — Mon, 12 Dec 2009 15:25:43 UT

Perhaps I can offer my thoughts on the discussion by way of an account of
our experiments at Eden with the "apprenticeship" metaphor:

About a month ago, we created a new "apprentice" role at our company, where
devs can spend some time working under the more direct supervision of a
"mentor". Once finished, that person becomes a "senior craftsman". This is a

History

d...@8thlight.com (Doug Bradbury) — Mon, 12 Dec 2009 04:07:55 UT

This just made me realize how much this list has grown in size this year. The folks on this list are behind the manifesto. If you'd like a history lesson, take a look at these two threads:
[link]
[link]

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

33jlhr...@sneakemail.com (Sukant Hajra) — Mon, 12 Dec 2009 02:30:08 UT

Excerpts from Mark Nijhof mark.nijhof-at-gmail.com |Software Craftsmanship/mailing_lists|'s message of Sun Dec 13 19:54:08 -0600 2009:

I feel I share a sentiment with you, but something about your assertion seems
kind of strong.

The discussion that I keep on coming back to on this issue is Jim Shore's

Re: Being a Master Craftsman or not?

d.b.greenfi...@gmail.com (greeni) — Mon, 12 Dec 2009 02:07:14 UT

Why not start with: it works and provides solid value to the business.
A quick google of "software failure" turns up a number of reports. The
consensus seems to fall around a 40-60% failure rate, in which
projects fail to return *any* value at the "end." So let's stipulate
that something is very wrong with the state of the software industry.

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

mark.nij...@gmail.com (Mark Nijhof) — Mon, 12 Dec 2009 01:54:08 UT

For me Software Craftsmanship is about personal believes, so I don't
follow the path of software craftsmanship to get a better job, I do it
to get more satisfaction out of my job. I have a passion for it. But
in the end this would result in me being better at my job and thus I
could be able to get a better job (presumable). But that is not the

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

33jlhr...@sneakemail.com (Sukant Hajra) — Mon, 12 Dec 2009 01:36:34 UT

Excerpts from cory.foy-at-gmail.com |Software Craftsmanship/mailing_lists|'s message of Sun Dec 13 14:50:08 -0600 2009:

Ah, I got you. Interesting point.

I reread my post, and I think the problem is that many people outside of the
Software Craftsmanship community /will/ take concepts like "master" and

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

steve.to...@gmail.com (Steve Tooke) — Sun, 12 Dec 2009 21:01:15 UT

Well put! The labels apprentice, journeyman and master aren't
destinations or even waypoints on the journey they're just signposts
pointing you in the right direction.

--
/tooky

Delivered: Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

aaronruh...@hotmail.com — Sun, 12 Dec 2009 21:00:14 UT

Your message was delivered to the recipient.

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

cory....@gmail.com — Sun, 12 Dec 2009 20:50:08 UT

Hi Sukant,

I largely agree with many of the things in your email except one - the tie in of the movement to employability.

I don't strive to be a master for my resume. I may choose to master a skill to do work, but my journey in craftsmanship is not about getting a job.

When you look at crafters they are masters of specific things. I've learned this week of people who knit using wire. It's OK for us to have different areas, different masterpieces, etc. But a master in wood could probably recognize a master in knitting and have interesting discussions - because the medium is just an expression.

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

jason.cat...@gmail.com (Jason Catena) — Sun, 12 Dec 2009 20:01:50 UT

Agree. You're a master of one program, or programming style, or
programming process, or whatever. Master as a title is simply not
applicable across all of computer science, or all programming jobs, to
areas where you don't have experience. So I don't believe there's any
value in a certificate that says "master" without any qualifications.

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

mark.nij...@gmail.com (Mark Nijhof) — Sun, 12 Dec 2009 19:45:22 UT

I would add a few more books:

- Pragmatic Programmer, Andrew Hunt and Dave Thomas
- The Passionate Programmer, Chad Fowler
- Apprenticeship Patterns, Hoover Dave and Oshineye Adewale

- Clean Code, Robert C. Martin

- The Craftsman, Richard Sennett

Also there are Software Craftsmanship Conferences as far as I know one

Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

33jlhr...@sneakemail.com (Sukant Hajra) — Sun, 12 Dec 2009 19:28:22 UT

This thread is a spin-off of all the recent threads that have been boiling
over, largely in response to postings by Jason, with whom I'm mostly in
agreement with.

What I like about the Software Craftsmanship community
------------------------------ ------------------------

I want to be around people that cherish their craft. But just saying, "I want

Re: [SC] Re: Being a Master Craftsman or not?

mark.nij...@gmail.com (Mark Nijhof) — Sun, 12 Dec 2009 17:12:09 UT

Again I used "for example" so sure there is a lot more, but as I tried
to hint, that is not what I am curious about in this thread ;)

-Mark

software_craftsmanship Google Group

Re: *SPAM* [SC] Re: QCon Session - "Danger: Software Craftsmen At Work"

Re: *SPAM* [SC] Re: QCon Session - "Danger: Software Craftsmen At Work"

Re: *SPAM* [SC] Re: QCon Session - "Danger: Software Craftsmen At Work"

History

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

Re: Being a Master Craftsman or not?

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

Delivered: Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

Re: [SC] Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

Identity of the Craftsman (Mailing List)

Re: [SC] Re: Being a Master Craftsman or not?

Re: SPAM [SC] Re: QCon Session - "Danger: Software Craftsmen At Work"

Re: SPAM [SC] Re: QCon Session - "Danger: Software Craftsmen At Work"

Re: SPAM [SC] Re: QCon Session - "Danger: Software Craftsmen At Work"