soc.history.war.world-war-ii Google Group

Most maneuverable fighter.

ogro...@webtv.net (Padraigh ProAmerica) — Sat, 11 Nov 2009 02:36:14 UT

In a discussion with someone the other day, this subject came up. We
kicked around the usual suspects- P-51 Mustang; Spitfire, ME-109, Zero.
But- I remember reading several years ago that the real answer was the
twin-engined P-61 Black Widow night-fighter; the P-61 could reportedly
turn INSIDE a Spitfire!

Re: WWII in HD

aaker...@earthlink.net (aakermit) — Fri, 11 Nov 2009 21:42:30 UT

I think maybe this same approach was used for the series "WWII in
Color" that came out a couple of years ago. The good news in all this
is that there remains an audience for this material and "newbies" are
being exposed to this history for the first time.
-Greg

Re: Eisenhower vs. Devers on crossing the Rhine

alan_nor...@comcast.net (Alan) — Fri, 11 Nov 2009 20:27:32 UT

I think there was some fear by the Americans that they would be
perceived as handing the government to De Gaulle. They wanted a free
election to allow the French to chose whoever they wanted. I'm certain
you know far more than I about post war French politics, so I'll
gladly agree with your assessment of what happened vs what might have

Re: Eisenhower vs. Devers on crossing the Rhine

louis...@yahoo.com (Louis C) — Fri, 11 Nov 2009 18:58:28 UT

Alan wrote:
There is no doubt that France would have ended up an independent
country.
But the postwar elections saw a new generation entering politics, with
the old elites thoroughly discredited by both the 1940 defeat and
their colllaborationist record under Vichy. Had the Americans run the
country, they would likely have supported "tried and true" political

Re: Was Hitler a beliver in theism?

e...@spamblock.ncf.ca (Don Phillipson) — Thu, 11 Nov 2009 20:11:45 UT

that
eg
Answers are non-simple i.e. we should not expect the same
personal beliefs at all dates in a life, or uniformity between
private beliefs and public practice. Verifiable facts include:
1. Hitler was raised a Catholic, as was normal for everyone
(except Jews) in Austria.
2. As head of government, Hitler supervised Third Reich

Re: WWII in HD

davidwi...@comcast.net (Dave) — Thu, 11 Nov 2009 18:14:11 UT

My hunch is that documentarians over the years have plucked the most
dramatic and instructive shots from other documentaries, particularly
the latter. This "HD" effort seems to include a lot of stuff that
remained in the archives or ended up on the cutting room floor. I
think the two most used shots are of the Arizona exploding and of

Re: Eisenhower vs. Devers on crossing the Rhine

alan_nor...@comcast.net (Alan) — Thu, 11 Nov 2009 18:13:30 UT

The Americans avowed purpose was self determination. At least this was
their aim under FDR. I don't know if this would have been achieved,
whenever the US meddles in another countries politics it usually turns
out bad for everyone concerned.
Another aspect is the distrust of De Gaulle's motives by the US and

Re: Eisenhower vs. Devers on crossing the Rhine

solom...@nospammail.com (SolomonW) — Thu, 11 Nov 2009 18:06:58 UT

An allegation made at the time, that I think is correct is that De Gaulle
wanted to remove away from the center of power as many Frenchmen with
political ideals that he disapproved of. So he put them in military units
under officers that he controlled far away. Several communist felt that the
army was more a prison.

Was Hitler a beliver in theism?

solom...@nospammail.com (SolomonW) — Thu, 11 Nov 2009 18:06:51 UT

Hitler was an opportunist and a liar. What he said often should not be
believed. Still all we have on this question are his comments. So here is a
page here on Hitler's religious beliefs which discusses several of his
comments
[link]
My question is do you think that Hitler believed in some form of theism?

Re: Eisenhower vs. Devers on crossing the Rhine

louis...@yahoo.com (Louis C) — Thu, 11 Nov 2009 09:02:01 UT

There certainly was for a while, though I wonder how much it was
really believed, deep down, as opposed to it being acquiesced to as a
narrative that everybody could agree with. Remember that people who
had been adults during WWII didn't start stepping aside before the
1960s. Until then, the hatreds born from the war were still very much

Re: WWII in HD

waltb...@mindspring.com (WaltBJ) — Thu, 11 Nov 2009 00:22:53 UT

You are correct. It is film that someone has dug up out of archives
somewhere. I heard a rumor that some had surfaced in Australia of all
places. So far no one on any of the programs has mentioned where they
were found. I have seen Tarawa, Kwajalein, Peleliu and B17s and
aircrews in England and US infantry in Germany. One B17 scene showed

Re: Eisenhower vs. Devers on crossing the Rhine

alan_nor...@comcast.net (Alan) — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:50:12 UT

I've always thought Eisenhower's mistakes were when he ignored
logistical considerations. Most glaringly when he prioritized Market-
Garden over clearing the Schelde Estuary. Even well after the fact he
thought his decision was the right one. Once again, he thought winning
the bridgehead at Arnhem would shorten the war.

Re: Eisenhower vs. Devers on crossing the Rhine

pierrot.rob...@gmail.com (ThePro) — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:09:15 UT

<snip>
AFAIK there was quite a bit of propaganda about this in the post-war
years.
I have some French friends, in their forties, who learned in school
and still believe that De Gaulle "saved France from the Americans" and
that Overlord was not needed because the French Resistance by itself
was just about to get rid of the Germans. Go figure...

Re: Eisenhower vs. Devers on crossing the Rhine

gsinclai...@froggy.com.au (Geoffrey Sinclair) — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:52:09 UT

The article is picking up on the book, Decision at Strasbourg,
Ike's Strategic Mistake to halt the Sixth Army Group at the
Rhine in 1944 by David Colley.
The book seems to use quotes from people like Patton and
makes the usual claims, the road to Berlin might have been
opened. It also claims it was going to be a sizeable US force

Re: Eisenhower vs. Devers on crossing the Rhine

louis...@yahoo.com (Louis C) — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:15:06 UT

Marseilles was not mostly intact when captured, but by then Allied
logisticians had enough experience with refitting destroyed ports that
proper provisions had been made to repair and expand it quickly.
The two factors that really helped were the working rail lines, as you
mentioned and the pace of the Allied advance. The former meant that