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dumbstruck  
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 More options 28 Sep, 00:43
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
From: dumbstruck <dumbst...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:43:31 -0400
Local: Mon 28 Sep 2009 00:43
Subject: Kursk eyewitness accounts?
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High level accounts of the epic Kursk tank battle just don't add up
for me, so I wondered if there are readible accounts by participants
to at least get the feel of it on the ground? Actually a Stuka or
Shturmovik pilot might have a better view than thru a tank periscope.

I take it that broad accounts of the battle can seem contradictory
because of a lot of recent revisionist material that hasn't yet been
digested into the overall marketplace of ideas http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm
. P.S, I was able to make it to the largest tank museum in the world
without the private transportation that is normally thought needed.
Couple hour train from London's waterloo station to "Wool", then walk
a 2km bike trail heading NW right to the complex in Bovington.


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Alan Meyer  
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 More options 28 Sep, 15:52
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
From: Alan Meyer <amey...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:52:11 -0400
Local: Mon 28 Sep 2009 15:52
Subject: Re: Kursk eyewitness accounts?
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dumbstruck wrote:

 > High level accounts of the epic Kursk tank battle just don't
 > add up for me, so I wondered if there are readible accounts by
 > participants to at least get the feel of it on the ground?
 > Actually a Stuka or Shturmovik pilot might have a better view
 > than thru a tank periscope.

There is a popular book full of photos and quotes from
eyewitnesses, _Images of Kursk: History's Greatest Tank Battle,
July 1943_ by Nik Kornish, Brown Partworks Ltd., London, 2002.
It's hardly a scholarly or an authoritative source, but it has a
lot of the first person flavor that you might be looking for.
I'm guessing that there a half dozen books like it.

I don't recall much from pilots in the book, however I expect
that, although air crews would have a vision that is better in
many ways than ground pounders, it's also worse in other ways than
those on the ground.  I guess you'd like to read both if you
could find them.

 > I take it that broad accounts of the battle can seem
 > contradictory because of a lot of recent revisionist material
 > that hasn't yet been digested into the overall marketplace of
 > ideas http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

"Revisionist" is probably an unfortunate term that has political
connotations you don't intend.

I looked at the cited web page.  My impression was that Mr.
Licari, the author of the web page, sets up a strawman (Martin
Caidin, incorrectly spelled "Caiden" on the web page), and then
knocks him down.  Granted, Caidin was a very popular author who
must have influenced many readers in the U.S., but probably never
influenced any historians or many serious readers of WWII eastern
front history.

He also redefines terms in order to make points, most notably in
claiming that Kursk was not the greatest tank battle of the war
by redefining Kursk to just be the fighting around Prokhorovka.
As I understand it, all arms, infantry, artillery, tanks, and
aircraft played key roles.  I don't think that most people who
call Kursk "the greatest tank battle" mean to imply that other
arms were less important, only that tanks were more prominent
than in other battles of the war.

     Alan


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GFH  
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 More options 28 Sep, 15:52
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
From: GFH <geor...@ankerstein.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:52:59 -0400
Local: Mon 28 Sep 2009 15:52
Subject: Re: Kursk eyewitness accounts?
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On 28 sep, 01:43, dumbstruck <dumbst...@gmail.com> wrote:

> High level accounts of the epic Kursk tank battle just don't add up
> for me, so I wondered if there are readible accounts by participants
> to at least get the feel of it on the ground? Actually a Stuka or
> Shturmovik pilot might have a better view than thru a tank periscope.

What does not "add up"?  The Germans took a major gamble on this
battle, committing virtually all of their resources.  The Germans lost
badly.

Perhaps what is missing in your addition is the inability of the
Germans to
replace the losses within any useful time-frame.  And the German tanks
were inferior.  And as subsequent events proved, developing,
debugging,
producing and introducing into the field of a major weapon system,
which
is what a tank is, takes time and resources.  The Germans had neither.

That is why the USA stuck with the Sherman until the end of the war
--
just 11 months from the Normandy invasion.  An attempt to upgrade
within
that time-frame would have cost, not saved, lives.  And the USA had
virtually infinite resources, as compared to any of the others.

GFH


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dumbstruck  
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 More options 29 Sep, 06:13
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
From: dumbstruck <dumbst...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:13:29 -0400
Local: Tues 29 Sep 2009 06:13
Subject: Re: Kursk eyewitness accounts?
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On Sep 28, 4:52 am, Alan Meyer <amey...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> dumbstruck wrote:

>  > High level accounts of the epic Kursk tank battle just don't
>  > add up for me, so I wondered if there are readible accounts by
>  > participants to at least get the feel of it on the ground?
>  > Actually a Stuka or Shturmovik pilot might have a better view
>  > than thru a tank periscope.

> There is a popular book full of photos and quotes from
> eyewitnesses, _Images of Kursk: History's Greatest Tank Battle,
> July 1943_ by Nik Kornish, Brown Partworks Ltd., London, 2002.
> It's hardly a scholarly or an authoritative source, but it has a
> lot of the first person flavor that you might be looking for.

I had already peeked at that books entry on Amazon, where a featured
review called it 80% Soviet propaganda. But now I see it included
positive points too.

> I don't recall much from pilots in the book, however I expect
> that, although air crews would have a vision that is better in
> many ways than ground pounders, it's also worse in other ways than
> those on the ground.  I guess you'd like to read both if you

Probably it is included in the famous Hans-Ulrich Rudel STUKA memoirs,
which I read as a kid, but I can't tell online if it or a number of
others actually cover Kursk.

>  > I take it that broad accounts of the battle can seem
>  > contradictory because of a lot of recent revisionist material
>  > that hasn't yet been digested into the overall marketplace of
>  > ideashttp://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

> "Revisionist" is probably an unfortunate term that has political
> connotations you don't intend.

It just seems that high level accounts disagree with each other and
with detailed snapshots. With the root sources being from mostly a
Stalinist or sometimes from a Fascist dominated authority, it might
take a lot of sleuthing/debunking to resolve anyway.

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SolomonW  
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 More options 29 Sep, 16:10
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
From: SolomonW <Solom...@nospamLamp.com.au>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:10:37 -0400
Local: Tues 29 Sep 2009 16:10
Subject: Re: Kursk eyewitness accounts?
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On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:52:59 -0400, GFH wrote:
> What does not "add up"?  The Germans took a major gamble on this
> battle, committing virtually all of their resources.  The Germans lost
> badly.

They did not lose badly. Some say they won. The importance of Kursk is that
the Germans failed to inflict a major defeat on the Russians. After the
battle, the Russians for the first time were able to keep the initiative in
the summer.

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dumbstruck  
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 More options 20 Oct, 21:06
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
From: dumbstruck <dumbst...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:06:45 -0400
Local: Tues 20 Oct 2009 21:06
Subject: Re: Kursk eyewitness accounts?
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On Sep 28, 4:52 am, GFH <geor...@ankerstein.org> wrote:

> What does not "add up"?  The Germans took a major gamble on this
> battle, committing virtually all of their resources.  The Germans lost

I guess I'm puzzled on why the northern German pincer failed so badly
compared to the southern one, when both were apparently crucial for
crushing the underbelly of the salient. I gather the northern one was
doomed to inferiority, with less tigers to brave the gauntlet, but
resulted in stalemate that tied up german equipment that was badly
needed for the mele with soviet reserves that eventually mauled the
southern pincer.

If Manstein was such a genius, why didn't he make the northern pincer
just a feint and reallocate vital equipment? Or was it a close run
thing, where the northern pincer almost broke thru, or it seemed
plausible based on faulty recon? The southern pincer seemed masterful;
too bad the US and UK didn't take heed how the the Germans got into
uniforms and tanks from the other side and spread panic, before the
same stunt was pulled in battle of the Bulge.

I heard some colorful quotes about Kursk battlefield conditions from
Zhukov's memoirs. Unfortunately reviews of that book on amazon focus
solely on how the Russian battles are under recognized in the US, and
nothing at all on whether his book is enlightening or self serving
crap.


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Mike  
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 More options 5 Nov, 16:18
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
From: Mike <yard22...@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:18:11 -0500
Local: Thurs 5 Nov 2009 16:18
Subject: Re: Kursk eyewitness accounts?
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from http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/search/tr/str/guided-tr.html

Title: Nazi Waterloo, the Battle of Kursk, July 1943.
AD Number: AD0765647   Corporate Author: ARMY WAR COLL CARLISLE
BARRACKS PA   Personal Author: Thorsen,Peter L   Report Date: March
15, 1972   Media: 33 page(s

Title: Why Fight On? The Decision to Close the Kursk Salient
AD Number: ADA423367   Corporate Author: ARMY WAR COLL CARLISLE
BARRACKS PA   Personal Author: Cunningham, Christian   Report Date:
May 03, 2004   Media: 41 page(s)

Title: The Roots of Soviet Victory: The Applications of Operational
Art on the Eastern Front, 1942-1943
AD Number: ADA416926   Corporate Author: ARMY COMMAND AND GENERAL
STAFF COLL FORT LEAVENWORTH KS   Personal Author: Howard, James R
Report Date: June 06, 2003   Media: 110 page(s)

Title: Exploring the Validation of Lanchester Equations for the Battle
of Kursk
AD Number: ADA391617   Corporate Author: NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL
MONTEREY CA   Personal Author: Dinges, John A   Report Date: June 01,
2001   Media: 122 page(s)

Title: Mine and Countermine Operations in the Battle of Kursk
AD Number: ADA377291   Corporate Author: BRTRC INC FAIRFAX VA
Personal Author: Remson, Andrew   Report Date: April 25, 2000   Media:
170 page(s)

Title: The Battle of kursk An Analysis of Strategic and Operational
Principles
AD Number: ADA377406   Corporate Author: ARMY WAR COLL CARLISLE
BARRACKS PA   Personal Author: Kasdorf, Bruno   Report Date: April 06,
2000   Media: 54 page(s)

Title: The Genesis of an Operational Commander: Georgi Zhukov at
Khalkin Gol.
AD Number: ADA348831   Corporate Author: NAVAL WAR COLL NEWPORT RI
Personal Author: Kyker, Clayton B   Report Date: February 13, 1998
Media: 28 page(s)

Title: Analysis and Significance of the Battle of Kursk in July
1943.
AD Number: ADA299270   Corporate Author: ARMY COMMAND AND GENERAL
STAFF COLL FORT LEAVENWORTH KS   Personal Author: Ramos, Enrique
Report Date: June 02, 1995   Media: 135 page(s)

Title: The Operational Implications of Deception at the Battle of
Kursk
AD Number: ADA215721   Corporate Author: ARMY COMMAND AND GENERAL
STAFF COLL FORT LEAVENWORTH KS SCHOOL OF ADVANCED MILITARY STUDIES
Personal Author: Elder, James E   Report Date: May 15, 1989   Media:
63 page(s)

Title: Soviet Operational Intelligence in the Kursk Operation (July
1943).
AD Number: ADA216373   Corporate Author: ARMY COMBINED ARMS CENTER
FORT LEAVENWORTH KS SOVIET ARMY STUDIES OFFICE   Personal Author:
Glantz, David M   Report Date: August 01, 1988   Media: 74 page(s)

Title: Tank Destroyers - A New Look at Old Doctrine,
AD Number: ADA192584   Corporate Author: ARMY COMMAND AND GENERAL
STAFF COLL FORT LEAVENWORTH KS SCHOOL OF ADVANCED MIL ITARY STUDIES
Personal Author: Huntoon, David H , Jr   Report Date: December 14,
1987   Media: 60 page(s)

Title: Kursk: A Study in Operational Art,
AD Number: ADA184964   Corporate Author: ARMY COMMAND AND GENERAL
STAFF COLL FORT LEAVENWORTH KS SCHOOL OF ADVANCED MIL ITARY STUDIES
Personal Author: Pierce, Kerry K   Report Date: May 20, 1987   Media:
52 page(s)

Title: Avoiding Operational Surprise: Lessons from World Ward II,
Corporate Author: ARMY COMMAND AND GENERAL STAFF COLL FORT LEAVENWORTH
KS SCHOOL OF ADVANCED MIL ITARY STUDIES   Personal Author: Partridge,
Mark S   Report Date: May 09, 1987   Media: 65 page(s)

Title: Soviet Assessments of the Theater Balance of Forces: The Case
of the Kursk Operation
AD Number: ADA269624   Corporate Author: MASSACHUSETTS INST OF TECH
CAMBRIDGE   Personal Author: Rumer, Eugene B   Report Date: December
01, 1986   Media: 34 page(s)

Title: Soviet Defensive Tactics at Kursk, July 1943
AD Number: ADA494835   Corporate Author: ARMY COMBINED ARMS CENTER
FORT LEAVENWORTH KS SOVIET ARMY STUDIES OFFICE   Personal Author:
Glantz, David M   Report Date: September 01, 1986   Media: 73 page
(s)

Title: Characteristics of the Organization of Engineering Support in
the Battle of Kursk,
Corporate Author: ARMY FOREIGN SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY CENTER
CHARLOTTESVILLE VA   Personal Author: Kolibernov,Y   Report Date:
December 01, 1985   Media: 13 page(s)
        t
Title: An Operational Level Analysis of Soviet Armored Formations in
the Deliberate Defense in the Battle of Kursk, 1943
AD Number: ADA164605   Corporate Author: ARMY COMMAND AND GENERAL
STAFF COLL FORT LEAVENWORTH KS   Personal Author: Crow, Charles L
Report Date: May 10, 1985   Media: 143 page(s)

Title: Battlefield Air Interdiction by the Luftwaffe at the Battle of
Kursk - 1943.
AD Number: ADA093110   Corporate Author: ARMY COMMAND AND GENERAL
STAFF COLL FORT LEAVENWORTH KS   Personal Author: Dalecky,William J
Report Date: June 06, 1980   Media: 71 page(s)

Title: Soviet Air Combat Experience: The Soviet Air Force in Support
of Ground Forces in World War II.
Corporate Author: AIR WAR COLL MAXWELL AFB ALA   Personal Author:
King,John J   Report Date: April 01, 1978   Media: 52 page(s)

Title: A Study of Breakthrough Operations
AD Number: ADA036492   Corporate Author: HISTORICAL EVALUATION AND
RESEARCH ORGANIZATION DUNN LORING VA   Personal Author: Dupuy, T N
Hayes, Grace P Martell, Paul Lyons, Vivian E Andrews, John A C
Report Date: October 01, 1976   Media: 210 page(s)

Title: Nazi Waterloo, the Battle of Kursk, July 1943.
Corporate Author: ARMY WAR COLL CARLISLE BARRACKS PA   Personal
Author: Thorsen,Peter L   Report Date: March 15, 1972   Media: 33 page
(s)


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