----- Original Message ---- From: KSChin <koonsi...@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, 23 April, 2008 10:15:12 AM Subject: [sangkancil] [ATimes] Letter
All the moral indignation coming from Westerners about China and Tibet and human-rights violations [China bunkers down behind its great wall Apr 16] made me wonder: How would Western countries have fared in the good ol' days of wanton imperialism? The bottom line is the Western modality of thinking is fundamentally racist and two-faced; Asians will always be perceived as slightly less than human, with only the thin veneer of civilization cloaking their barbarism, and that any analogous behavior on the part of whites is merely their way of spreading Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman values, which everyone knows is the guiding light of the universe. ... Hardy Campbell Houston, Texas, USA (Apr 22, '08) _______________________________________________________________________ Below some evidence of the "Western modality of thinking" as referred to above??? Interesting how the Tibetans below can ape these Westerners and their modality of thinking???? Olympic torch relay 'raging success' The Mebourne Age 24 April 2008
A pro-China protestor is arrested before the start of the torch relay in Canberra. Photo: Andrew Meares Protester crosses torch path Video Protester arrested trying to get in the way of the Olympic flame (RAW VISION). Police arrest at relay Video Police arrest a pro-Chinese supporter at the Canberra Olympic torch relay.(RAW VISION) Chinese head to Canberra Video Chinese pro-Beijing Olympic protesters explain why they're supporting the torch relay. Torch lands in Canberra Video The Olympic torch and its blue track-suited escorts are in Australia ahead of tomorrow's relay. View Protesters clash
Photos Tensions rise in Canberra amid confrontations between pro-China and pro-Tibet protesters. Matthew Burgess April 24, 2008 - 12:28PM
Participants and organisers of the Olympic torch relay in Canberra have labelled it a "raging success", despite the arrest of six protesters. The relatively small number of arrests among a sometimes tense 20,000-strong crowd containing opposing groups of protesters was a "great result", ACT government spokesman Jeremy Lasek said. "The most important thing is the flame was never in danger, from start to finish, and that's an enormous credit to our federal police,'' he told Sky News. "We obviously feared the worst having seen incidents in the other cities around the world.....we feel right now relieved but elated - we think we've pulled it off.'' Mr Lasek said the security role of the Chinese torch attendants had been an issue right up to this morning. But he said ACT police and organisers had told the Beijing Games officials the torch did not need Chinese security and it would be done "the Australian way''. "And I think they were proven right. "We didn't see the torch surrounded by a phalanx. It wasn't necessary - our police were doing the job.'' Olympian and swimmer Matt Welsh said later the relay was "a lot smoother than it could have been''. "It's a big carnival...I don't think we could have asked for anything better,'' he told Sky News. Former marathon runner Rob de Castella said the organisation, security and logistics of today's relay run had been first rate. He said the torch had drawn a lot of very passionate people to Canberra, but he urged people to remember the symbolic significance of the Olympic flame. "While it's caused a few problems, we need these things more so than ever before,'' he told Sky. Aussie police clash with torch attendants Police clashed with the Beijing tracksuit-clad attendants during this morning's torch relay. An Australian security officer pulled one of the Chinese torch attendants away from Choir of Hard Knocks conductor and Local Hero Australian of the Year Jonathon Welch after he was handed the flame. More than a thousand pro-Tibetan and pro-Chinese supporters gathered outside Parliament. Police dragged away a woman who was lying on the ground surrounded by officers and media. It was not clear if the woman was injured. Officers running with the torch wrestled a protester to the ground and handcuffed him, in an incident on the ramp leading to Parliament House. The protester ran in front of the torch but was unable to get close to the flame before being jumped on and wrestled away. Clashes between protest groups On Anzac Parade, where the torch had yet to arrive, pro-Chinese and pro-Tibetan supporters clashed just hundreds of metres from the Australian War Memorial. Three protesters jumped the barricades and carried Free Tibet signs down the centre of Anzac Parade - a road flanked with memorials to Australia's war dead. About 50 pro-China demonstrators followed them and tried to cover the Tibetans and their signs with large red Chinese flags. Pandemonium broke out as the two groups yelled at each other until police intervened and ordered everyone behind the barricades. Four of the people arrested this morning remain in custody, with one person detained then released, ACT police said. Charges will be laid against three male protesters under the Major Events Security Act, a police spokeswoman said. Two were believed to be Chinese supporters, and one was believed to be pro-Tibet, she said. Chinese flag burnt During the torch welcome ceremony a Chinese flag was set alight and police escorted a pro-Tibetan supporter away. The lead-up to the event has been marked by a strong turnout of thousands of pro-China students. Convoys of buses travelling from Sydney, Melbourne and other centres began delivering them to the centre of Canberra well before dawn. Waving red Chinese flags, they made their way to Reconciliation Place, on the shores of Lake Burley Griffin, from where the relay will start. In Reconciliation Place, China supporters, many dressed in red and waving Chinese flags, far outnumbered those who turned out in support of human rights in Tibet. Chinese supporters chanted "Stop Lying'' and "One China Forever''. Tibetan supporters in turn chanted ``Shame on China'' and ``Human Rights for Tibet''. A large police presence was in place to keep the demonstrators from either side separated. One Chinese student who gave his name as Victor said he was very proud that the Olympic Games would be held in Beijing. He is from northern China and studying at UTS in Sydney. "We are here today to support our government and to support our country,'' he said. "We think the Olympics will bring peace for the whole world.''
Victor said holding the Olympic Games would improve China's international status. He said that all Chinese people thought that Tibet was a part of China. "Nobody can deny that.'' 'We want human rights'
Tibetan Australian Samten Gyatso travelled from Melbourne to protest against human rights abuses in his homeland. He said Tibetans had come to Canberra today to take the message to the world. "We have come here to stop the killing in Tibet. We want human rights,'' he said. Mr Gyatso said although the Chinese supporters were in a joyous mood it was a very sad day for Tibetans both here and in his homeland. "I don't think today is a day for celebration,'' he said. Sanam Thargye, a Tibetan monk living in Melbourne, said he wished the torch relay every success, but felt he had to come to highlight human rights abuses in his homeland. "I want to say please stop killing Tibetan people in Tibet,'' he said. "I'm concerned that in Tibet there is killing and torture. I have heard about it. I have seen it. I have experienced it.'' with AAP
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Someone got the better of the Chinese supra-nationalists who were bussed into Canberra today to make sure nobody blew their torch out. More photos of the "Canberra Day for Chinese Supra-Nationalists to Shout Down and Beat Up Anyone Doing or Saying Things They Didn't Like" (just as they did in KL a coule of days ago) can be found here.
The Way Forward in Tibet By Paula J. Dobriansky The Washington Post Monday, April 21, 2008; Page A15 When I meet with the Dalai Lama today, I fully expect him to reaffirm his strong commitment to engaging Chinese officials in dialogue. President Bush has repeatedly expressed his own steadfast support for dialogue between the Dalai Lama and China's leadership. Meaningful dialogue presents the only viable way forward. In March, demonstrations in Lhasa that began peacefully escalated into violence and quickly spread to other Tibetan areas of China. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has expressed deep concern regarding these events, has called on all sides to refrain from violence, and has strongly urged China to exercise restraint in dealing with the protesters and to respect the fundamental right of all people to peacefully express their religious and political views. Underlying these tragic events is China's long-standing repression of religious, cultural and other freedoms for the Tibetan people, repression that has been extensively documented in State Department human rights reports and elsewhere. Since 1949, the cycle of protests followed by crackdowns has repeated itself several times, but the end result has always been the same: Control is restored but only temporarily, while the underlying causes of Tibetan grievances remain unaddressed. The recent protests are a manifestation of lingering frustration at a lack of progress in addressing Tibetans' concerns. These ethnic clashes have resulted in fatalities of Tibetans and Han Chinese and in widespread arrests. The best way for China's leaders to address Tibetan concerns is to engage in dialogue with the Dalai Lama, who has advocated a "middle way" that embraces autonomy for Tibet within China and rejects seeking independence. The Dalai Lama is the only person with the influence and credibility to persuade Tibetans to eschew violence and accept a genuine autonomy within China that would also preserve Tibetan culture and identity. The U.S. government believes there is a basis for dialogue between the Dalai Lama and China's leadership. The Dalai Lama has met the preconditions for dialogue called for by China: He does not advocate independence for Tibet; he does not engage in or advocate separatist activities; and he recognizes that Tibet is part of China. The Dalai Lama has publicly come out strongly against the violence that erupted recently in Lhasa and other areas. He even took the extraordinary step of offering his resignation if necessary to convince all parties of his nonviolent approach to reaching resolution. And he has indicated his support for holding the Olympic Games in Beijing. The United States has honored the Dalai Lama as a man of peace and a lifelong advocate of nonviolence by awarding him the Congressional Gold Medal last October. When the Chinese government uses harsh rhetoric against the Dalai Lama, or steps up "patriotic education campaigns" that include forced denunciations of the Dalai Lama, it serves only to further enflame tensions. Some in China, however, have taken a stand against such tactics. In an unprecedented move, prominent Chinese intellectuals are circulating a petition that calls on the Chinese government to end its "one-sided" propaganda campaign and initiate direct dialogue with the Dalai Lama. Since 2002, the Dalai Lama's representatives have conducted six rounds of talks with Chinese officials, in a major departure from the previous 20 years of nonengagement. These discussions, while substantive, have not yet produced concrete results. If continued in good faith, this dialogue could build trust and provide the long-term basis for political and economic stability in Tibet. As Secretary Rice has noted, while Beijing has missed opportunities to engage the Dalai Lama directly, there is still hope, and it is not too late to do so. In addition to engaging in meaningful dialogue, China should immediately cease the repressive measures directed at Tibetans seeking to practice their religion and preserve their cultural identity, and should release those detained for peacefully protesting or expressing their views. Although the Chinese government recently arranged official trips to Lhasa for journalists and diplomats, we continue to call for unfettered access for all media and foreign diplomats into Tibetan areas. We hope that the current generation of Chinese leaders -- who have shown that they can pursue enlightened economic policies and who aspire to make China a respected global and regional stakeholder -- recognize that the resumption of a serious and direct dialogue with the Dalai Lama offers the best hope for resolving long-standing problems and achieving worthy goals in Tibet. The writer is U.S. special coordinator for Tibetan issues and undersecretary of state for democracy and global affairs.
花崗齋文集 Collected Writings from the Granite Studio Wednesday, February 21, 2007 Chinese historian: "To exaggerate the size of China's historical territory is not patriotic" - Full Text Via CDT: The blog Letters from China has a post about an article in the magazine China Review by Fudan University professor Ge Jianxiong. The CDT brief and the Letters from China post both feature the title "Tibet not always a part of China: Chinese Historian." Taken in context, Professor Ge's comments are not quite so shocking. While he does mention Tibet as not being a part of the Tang Empire, the article itself I think is more interesting for the larger argument: When discussing what is and, perhaps more importantly, what is not China, it's important to keep in mind the historical context and that the term "China" is not as certain a historical term as we might assume. Professor Ge argues that if we are to gauge the limits of territorial control in China's history, it's important to specify who is doing the controlling and what is it we mean by "control."
Chinese textbooks do attempt to hammer home the idea that Tibet is a part of China--often using some rather specious historical arguments in the process--but most scholars in the PRC look back to the mid-Qing takeover of Tibet as the true beginning of "Chinese" sovereignty over the region and the official position is that it begins during "China's Yuan dynasty." (ahem.)
The notion that Tibet was not under direct Tang administrative is perhaps less controversial, but it's sure to get some attention nevertheless, especially since Professor Ge also is the Director of the Institute of Chinese Historical Geography. For the CCP, it seems any weakening of China's "historical" sovereignty over the Tibetan plateau is a slippery slope that can only lead to a Dalai Lama Day parade through the streets of Lhasa. I will admit to not being the best translator (suggestions for fixes are welcome) in the Chinese blogosphere, but I felt the article was of sufficient general interest that I'm posting it here. I also wanted the original Tang Dynasty/Tibet claim to be in its original context.
When discussing the peaceful rise of China and the history of the great powers of the world, it is natural to think of ancient China.Can ancient China be considered a “Great Power”? If so, how big was it? This is a prerequisite for knowing the history and comparing development.But up to now, people have held on to not a few misunderstandings. First of all, “China” (Zhongguo) only officially became the name of our country with the founding of the Republic of China in 1912.Before this, the idea of China("Zhongguo") was not clearly conceptualized. The concept of "China" has continued to expand. From referring specifically to the central plains of China, the concept has since grown to now refer generally to a whole nation.Even during the late Qing, “China” would sometimes be used as a name to refer to the Qing State, including all the territory with in the boundaries of the Qing Empire, but other times it would only refer to the “18 Interior Provinces” and not include Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, Tibet, and Xinjiang.Therefore, if we want to understand the extent of ancient China’s territory, we can only speak of how large was the actual territory controlled by a particular dynasty at a particular moment. For example: How big was the Qin Dynasty? How big was the Tang Dynasty? How big was the Qing Dynasty? If you want to say how large was “China” at a certain time, you need to explain how “China” is conceptualized, including explaining which Dynasty or regime is being discussed.
*For example, if we ask: How big was 8th century China and if we speak about the borders of the Tang Dynasty, we cannot include the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau.This was ruled by Tubo/Tufan (吐蕃), and so does not count. Tubo/Tufan was a sovereignty independent of the Tang Dynasty. At least it was not administered by the Tang Dynasty. Otherwise, there would have been no need for Tang Taizong to marry Princess Wencheng to the Tibetan king; there would have been no need to erect the Tang-Tubo/Tufan alliance tablet. It would be a defiance of history if we claim that since the Tang Dynasty, Tibethas always been a part of China- the fact that the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau subsequently became a part of the Chinese dynasties does not substantiate such a claim.Of course, to look back from the perspective of contemporary borders, China’s current territory contains many areas that, from the perspective of 8thcentury political control, were independent of the authority of the Tang court including Tuobo/Tufan, Nanzhao [in Yunnan], and Bohai. Second, it goes without saying that since the different dynasties lasted both a long time and a short time, it also goes without saying their territory similarly fluctuated. This is especially so of those dynasties that greatly expanded the scope of their borders from the beginning to the end of their rule, the territory under their control could vary considerably over time. Take for example the Western Han. In the beginning, their western border extended to the Hexi/Gansu corridor.Later, it expanded to Lake Balkhash only to then shrink back to the Yumen Pass in the latter years of the dynasty.In the early years [of the Han] the southern boundaries reached only as far as the Southern Ling Mountains.Even what is now Guangxi and Guangdong was under the contol of the Nan Yue.Yet by the middle and later periods, control in the south extended as far as what is today Vietnam. After Tang Taizong defeated the Eastern Turks, the northern reaches of the Tang Empire extended all the way to the area around Lake Baikal.But when the Turks later regrouped, Tang control retreated to the Yinshan Mountains (in today’s Mongolia).Up to the reign of the Yongzheng Emperor during the Qing Dynasty, China’s borders did not include Xinjiang and it was not until the middle of the 18th century that the Qianlong Emperor was able to pacify the regions to the north and south of Tian Shan and extend Qing territory as far as Lake Balkhash and the Pamir Plateau.However, beginning around 1860, the northern reaches of Heilongjiang, the area east of the Ussuri River, and the northwest part of what is today Xinjiang—over 1,000,000 square kilometers of territory—was seized by Russia.In the 20th century, China for all practical purposes lost 1,500,000 square kilometers of territory that is Outer Mongolia. Moreover, we must differentiate between territory that was actually under administrative control of a dynasty, that which was a vassal state, and that which was “within the reaches of our prestige.” [Within a dynasty’s sphere of influence?]For example, take the later stages of the Western Han.Even though the leader of the Xiongnu surrendered to the Western Han, Han Wudi was not able to incorporate the Xiongnu into the Han Empire.Moreover, he had to pay off the leader of the Xiongnu in order to have a guarantee that there would be not attacks across a border marked by the Great Wall.As a result, the borders of the Han Empire did not extend beyond the Yin Mountains and the Xiongnu were never a part of Han territory.
In another example, several times the children and grandchildren of Ghengis Khan marched westward, their cavalry sweeping over Asia and Europe.But by the time that Ghengis’ grandson, Khubilai, established the Yuan Dynasty, Ghengis’ other descendants had already split apart his empire, after which they became known as the Four Khanates.These other Khanates and the Yuan court were independent political entities, only that their rulers had the same ancestors.The borders of the Yuan Empire did not include parts of Xinjiang and the southern territory belonged to another Khanate, never mind Central Asia, Western Asia, and Europe.
Another example is Vietnam, the larger part of which was under the administrative control of the Han and Tang Dynasties.But beginning in the 10thcentury, Vietnam founded its own independent kingdom, after which, during the Song, Yuan, Ming, and Qing dynasties, it was a vassal state.Of course, this is not the same as complete independence, therefore before France made Vietnam a French colony, France had to force the Qing government to relinquish its sovereignty and claims over Vietnam.Nevertheless, we are not able--at least after the 10th century—to regard Vietnam as a part of “China.”Korea, the Ryukyu Islands, Burma are also in a similar category.
Now, what of the countries of South East Asia and Japan that have never officially been the vassals of any dynasty? Chinese history books call them “Tributary States.”Actually, it was either international trade under the “tribute” banner or else it was only temporary visits.Most of what the books call “Tributary States” are like this.What is more, we have only the one-sided views of the Qing court records that were based on past precedents and written for the court’s own aggrandizement.For example, people also called Russia, France, Portugal, and the “Red Hairs” as tribute states. (During the Ming, Dutch people were called “Red Hair Foreigners,” After the mid-Qing they also called the English, “Red Hair Foreigners”)Can we possibly accept that these states were also vassals of the Qing? Until now, there are those people who feel that the more they exaggerate the territory of historical “China” or China’s successive dynasties and kingdoms the more patriotic they are.Actually, it is exactly the opposite.If China really wishes to rise peacefully, we must understand the true facts of history, only then will we be able to know the sum of our history, learn from our experiences, and so be on a solid footing to face the future.
(* Note: the third paragraph was translated by the good people at Letters from China, which is why it reads better than the rest of the text.)Like other areas that
...
> LAYKANDAO VILLAGE, China -- Naydup Gyatse, chief of this settlement on > the grasslands of the high Tibetan plain, does not know the name of > China's president. Nor does he want to. On the map, this land is part > of China's Sichuan province. But to the 300 people who live here, it > is part of greater Tibet.
> They sleep in stone houses and eat tsampa, the barley porridge that is > a staple for ethnic Tibetans, washing it down with hand-churned > yak-butter tea. The trip to anywhere else -- to town for supplies or > medical care -- is made on foot or on horseback over a dirt path, as > they wait listlessly for a long-discussed road. On their walls, they > hang photos of the Dalai Lama, the paramount leader of Tibetan > Buddhism, whose image is banned in China.
> ght, so they sent their army here to destroy us."
> In recent months, Chinese officials have returned -- this time with > plans to market the monastery as a tourist destination. Once an enemy > culture to be suppressed in China's eyes, the Tibetan way of life has > become a valuable commodity.
> "We are orphans," Gyamatse said. "We're the adopted children of China. > Our holy man is in India, and we don't have a mother or father. We > feel sad."
Wah gnh, and if no one sells to China, China die also maaaa.
And it is just things like that that probably led the Chinese govt to clamp down on the silly nongs "spontaneously" (ahem) parking their trucks and skinny backsides in front of Carrefour up and down the country.
How do you think a Western ban on trade, investment, visas for foreign travel and study and cultural exchanges would go down with the "laobaixing", hey gnh???
G V wrote: 花 崗齋文集 Collected Writings from the Granite Studio Wednesday, February 21, 2007 Chinese historian: "To exaggerate the size of China's historical territory is not patriotic" - Full Text Via CDT: The blog Letters from China has a post about an article in the magazine China Review by Fudan University professor Ge Jianxiong. The CDT brief and the Letters from China post both feature the title "Tibet not always a part of China: Chinese Historian." Taken in context, Professor Ge's comments are not quite so shocking. While he does mention Tibet as not being a part of the Tang Empire, the article itself I think is more interesting for the larger argument: When discussing what is and, perhaps more importantly, what is not China, it's important to
Now how can that be ? China won't die, if it doesn't want to die ...
500 mil Chinakuis will go on the LONG MARCH down to Singapore..... //////steamroll Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, VIetnam, Cambodia, Malaysia ( ouch ) and then Singapore .....
This occupation will not be like the timid American occupation of Iraq etc, but will be accompanied by civilian settlements as in Gaza and West Bank, Palestine.
Even Malaysia, Thailand, VIetnam has their cancerous Chinakui which are waiting for the Great RED Tide .... MOTHER OF ALL TSUNAMIs
God will save Indonesia ( because of the Sea, as in the case of UK and Germans )
GV God really bless you ----- in these times of RICE SHORTAGES< Sarawak going to be RICE BOWL of THE NEW WORLD
> Wah gnh, and if no one sells to China, China die also maaaa.
> And it is just things like that that probably led the Chinese govt > to clamp down on the silly nongs "spontaneously" (ahem) parking > their trucks and skinny backsides in front of Carrefour up and down > the country.
> How do you think a Western ban on trade, investment, visas for > foreign travel and study and cultural exchanges would go down with > the "laobaixing", hey gnh???
> ----- Original Message ---- > From: gnh <g...@pc.jaring.my> > To: sangkancil@googlegroups.com > Sent: Thursday, 24 April, 2008 8:29:57 PM > Subject: [sangkancil] Re: [ATimes] Letter
Wah gnh, now THAT IS far-fetched for this day and age, though China is no stranger to being a thorough-going Imperialist, as Tibet and Xinjiang still show today. Even you Cantonese and Fukienese are the result of the non-Han indigines of those two regions being enlightened (gobbled up?) over the centuries by armies of the Han emperors, who originated from the Yellow River basin thousands of kilometres away.
(And why should China send 500 million when the several millions that did come to SE Asia seem to be doing quite a creditable job anyway? he he . . . .)
But really, China's main hope lies in relative stability at home and in the Euros and $$$ from the West and Japan, along with as much of the techno stuff that it can inveigle out of them, wouldn't you say, hey gnh??? Not in sending 500 million south when they're more needed to man the toxic toy and mobile phone factories, which they can still sell to the few countries left trading with them (if their adolescents of all ages continue with their anti-West childishness)???
Just leave SE Asia for the "tongbao" that have already settled there, gnh???
Don't you get the impression sometimes, gnh, that for the mainlanders (and no doubt for some of the overseas Chinese) the notion of "China" somehow occupies the same position that the Qur'an holds for Muslims? It is the highest, noblest, most precious and sacred thing and you'd better not fool with it?? I think we've seen plenty of evidence for that over the last couple of weeks (as if we needed more), hey gnh?
From: "g...@pc.jaring.my" <g...@pc.jaring.my> To: sangkancil@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, 25 April, 2008 4:44:48 PM Subject: [sangkancil] Re: [ATimes] Letter
G V
Now how can that be ? China won't die, if it doesn't want to die ...
500 mil Chinakuis will go on the LONG MARCH down to Singapore..... //////steamroll Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, VIetnam, Cambodia, Malaysia ( ouch ) and then Singapore .....
This occupation will not be like the timid American occupation of Iraq etc, but will be accompanied by civilian settlements as in Gaza and West Bank, Palestine.
Even Malaysia, Thailand, VIetnam has their cancerous Chinakui which are waiting for the Great RED Tide .... MOTHER OF ALL TSUNAMIs
God will save Indonesia ( because of the Sea, as in the case of UK and Germans )
GV God really bless you ----- in these times of RICE SHORTAGES< Sarawak going to be RICE BOWL of THE NEW WORLD
Wah gnh, and if no one sells to China, China die also maaaa.
And it is just things like that that probably led the Chinese govt to clamp down on the silly nongs "spontaneously" (ahem) parking their trucks and skinny backsides in front of Carrefour up and down the country.
How do you think a Western ban on trade, investment, visas for foreign travel and study and cultural exchanges would go down with the "laobaixing", hey gnh???
----- Original Message ---- From: gnh <g...@pc.jaring.my> To: sangkancil@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, 24 April, 2008 8:29:57 PM Subject: [sangkancil] Re: [ATimes] Letter
G V wrote: 花 崗齋文集 Collected Writings from the Granite Studio Wednesday, February 21, 2007 Chinese historian: "To exaggerate the size of China's historical territory is not patriotic" - Full Text
That Tibet is a part of China is a given. That certain Tibetan elements have been asking for independence is the result of continuing Western encouragement and efforts to destabilise China as it struggles to take its rightful place in the world.
The imperialist Western mind has been busy can be seen from their construct of a region called Asia-Pacific, just to incorporate Australasia into the Asian scheme of things. It is time for Asian mind to think out of the colonised mind that has been shaped by so many years of colonisation. Stephen Tan
Wah gnh, now THAT IS far-fetched for this day and age, though China is no stranger to being a thorough-going Imperialist, as Tibet and Xinjiang still show today. Even you Cantonese and Fukienese are the result of the non-Han indigines of those two regions being enlightened (gobbled up?) over the centuries by armies of the Han emperors, who originated from the Yellow River basin thousands of kilometres away.(And why should China send 500 million when the several millions that did come to SE Asia seem to be doing quite a creditable job anyway? he he . . . .)But really, China's main hope lies in relative stability at home and in the Euros and $$$ from the West and Japan, along with as much of the techno stuff that it can inveigle out of them, wouldn't you say, hey gnh??? Not in sending 500 million south when they're more needed to man the toxic toy and mobile phone factories, which they can still sell to the few countries left trading with them (if their adolescents of all ages continue with their anti-West childishness)???Just leave SE Asia for the "tongbao" that have already settled there, gnh???Don't you get the impression sometimes, gnh, that for the mainlanders (and no doubt for some of the overseas Chinese) the notion of "China" somehow occupies the same position that the Qur'an holds for Muslims? It is the highest, noblest, most precious and sacred thing and you'd better not fool with it?? I think we've seen plenty of evidence for that over the last couple of weeks (as if we needed more), hey gnh?----- Original Message ---- From: "g...@pc.jaring.my" <g...@pc.jaring.my>To: sangkan...@googlegroups.comSent: Friday, 25 April, 2008 4:44:48 PMSubject: [sangkancil] Re: [ATimes] LetterG V
Now how can that be ? China won't die, if it doesn't want to die ...
500 mil Chinakuis will go on the LONG MARCH down to Singapore..... //////steamroll Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, VIetnam, Cambodia, Malaysia ( ouch ) and then Singapore .....
This occupation will not be like the timid American occupation of Iraq etc, but will be accompanied by civilian settlements as in Gaza and West Bank, Palestine.
Even Malaysia, Thailand, VIetnam has their cancerous Chinakui which are waiting for the Great RED Tide .... MOTHER OF ALL TSUNAMIs
God will save Indonesia ( because of the Sea, as in the case of UK and Germans )
GV God really bless you ----- in these times of RICE SHORTAGES< Sarawak going to be RICE BOWL of THE NEW WORLD
Wah gnh, and if no one sells to China, China die also maaaa.And it is just things like that that probably led the Chinese govt to clamp down on the silly nongs "spontaneously" (ahem) parking their trucks and skinny backsides in front of Carrefour up and down the country.How do you think a Western ban on trade, investment, visas for foreign travel and study and cultural exchanges would go down with the "laobaixing", hey gnh??? ----- Original Message ----From: gnh <g...@pc.jaring.my>To: sangkan...@googlegroups.comSent: Thursday, 24 April, 2008 8:29:57 PMSubject: [sangkancil] Re: [ATimes] LetterHey G VNow Malaysia also part of China, yes ?Because if China no buy, Malaysia die ........xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxG V wrote:
花 崗齋文集 Collected Writings from the Granite Studio Wednesday, February 21, 2007 Chinese historian: "To exaggerate the size of China's historical territory is not patriotic" - Full Text
G V wrote: > Wah gnh, and if no one sells to China, China die also maaaa.
> And it is just things like that that probably led the Chinese govt to > clamp down on the silly nongs "spontaneously" (ahem) parking their > trucks and skinny backsides in front of Carrefour up and down the country.
> How do you think a Western ban on trade, investment, visas for foreign > travel and study and cultural exchanges would go down with the > "laobaixing", hey gnh???
> ----- Original Message ---- > From: gnh <g...@pc.jaring.my> > To: sangkancil@googlegroups.com > Sent: Thursday, 24 April, 2008 8:29:57 PM > Subject: [sangkancil] Re: [ATimes] Letter
Actually the Northern girls are more sexy than the Southerners .......... ............. and Fujianese are more suspicious of Guangdong folks than the Beijingers !
For me, Penang the Hokkian City, further, but I always like to go, Ipoh, Cantonese city, not so attractive, even though so near
Here Malaysian Foochows friendly with the Fujian ( hokkian lang ), Hinghua lang, but suspicious of the KongFoo and Hakkas ////////
That's why MCA and DAP always quarrelling also .............
G V you are orang putih ? Latino ? Punjabi ? ( every language also you know, HOW ?)
G V wrote: > Wah gnh, now THAT IS far-fetched for this day and age, though China is > no stranger to being a thorough-going Imperialist, as Tibet and > Xinjiang still show today. Even you Cantonese and Fukienese are the > result of the non-Han indigines of those two regions being enlightened > (gobbled up?) over the centuries by armies of the Han emperors, who > originated from the Yellow River basin thousands of kilometres away.
> (And why should China send 500 million when the several millions that > did come to SE Asia seem to be doing quite a creditable job anyway? > he he . . . .)
> But really, China's main hope lies in relative stability at home and > in the Euros and $$$ from the West and Japan, along with as much of > the techno stuff that it can inveigle out of them, wouldn't you say, > hey gnh??? Not in sending 500 million south when they're more needed > to man the toxic toy and mobile phone factories, which they can still > sell to the few countries left trading with them (if their adolescents > of all ages continue with their anti-West childishness)???
> Just leave SE Asia for the "tongbao" that have already settled there, > gnh???
> Don't you get the impression sometimes, gnh, that for the mainlanders > (and no doubt for some of the overseas Chinese) the notion of "China" > somehow occupies the same position that the Qur'an holds for Muslims? > It is the highest, noblest, most precious and sacred thing and you'd > better not fool with it?? I think we've seen plenty of evidence for > that over the last couple of weeks (as if we needed more), hey gnh?
> ----- Original Message ---- > From: "g...@pc.jaring.my" <g...@pc.jaring.my> > To: sangkancil@googlegroups.com > Sent: Friday, 25 April, 2008 4:44:48 PM > Subject: [sangkancil] Re: [ATimes] Letter
> G V
> Now how can that be ? China won't die, if it doesn't want to die ...
> 500 mil Chinakuis will go on the LONG MARCH down to Singapore..... > //////steamroll Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, VIetnam, Cambodia, Malaysia ( > ouch ) > and then Singapore .....
> This occupation will not be like the timid American occupation of Iraq > etc, but will be accompanied > by civilian settlements as in Gaza and West Bank, Palestine.
> Even Malaysia, Thailand, VIetnam has their cancerous Chinakui which > are waiting for the Great RED Tide .... MOTHER OF ALL TSUNAMIs
> God will save Indonesia ( because of the Sea, as in the case of UK and > Germans )
> GV God really bless you ----- in these times of RICE SHORTAGES< > Sarawak going to be > RICE BOWL of THE NEW WORLD
----- Original Message ---- From: gnh <g...@pc.jaring.my> To: sangkancil@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, 27 April, 2008 8:35:23 PM Subject: [sangkancil] Re: [ATimes] Letter
Hey G V
But how can you ban China things ? Then you be prepared to pay more, eat less, pray more, work less ..........
Still can survive, but in different mode ... ___________________________________________________________________________ ______
gnh, a total Western ban on all trade and other kinds of ties is, I agree, rather far-fetched at this stage, but lower levels of bans and such are quite conceivable. China, I really do think, runs the risk of these if their "spontaneous demonstrators" don't show a bit more maturity and restraint. When it comes to the rather adolescent, gross and poisonous nationalism of so many China mainlanders (and even of a certain person on this list), which has been so amply demonstrated these past few weeks, I suggest the government try to rein in the monster they themselves have created.
As you will recall, there were wide-spread Western bans and things following the Tian'anmen crack-down and these could easily return. The bans certainly had a marked effect on China for a good few years. Tourism for example really bottomed and you could stay in the Shanghai Hilton for $30 a night!! Still, Li Peng and co. thought it better to hunker down against the bans and wait till the rest of the world forgot about all his tanks in Chang'an Boulevard.
gnh, you should remember China flogs more than 30% of the clothes, toxic toys and its other manufactures to nations which would most probably take a very dim view of its treatment of Tibet, so I suggest they and the "spontaneously bussed-in Chinese students" don't push it. No doubt, however, they'll just try to find another way of wriggling out of all this.
CHINA - HONG KONG Nationalism sky-high 100 days before the Olympics Celebrations, dances, and songs overshadow criticisms on human rights and on repression in Tibet. The politburo launches a "people's struggle", asking the population to work with the police against possible "terrorists" who want to ruin the games. In Hong Kong, in the name of patriotism, visas are denied to activists for human rights and the freedom of Tibet.
Beijing (AsiaNews) - Songs, dances, races, and even prayers mark the beginning of the countdown for the last 100 days before the Beijing Olympics. The joyous exultation is mixed with a rise of nationalism and a "war of the people" against foreign media, Western powers, and local pro-democracy activists. Meanwhile, the torch returned to Chinese territory today, in Hong Kong. The "100 day countdown" celebration included a marathon in which 10,000 of the city's inhabitants participated; traditional dances in front of the "Bird's Nest", the new stadium; a new hymn with the voices of 100 famous singers; and - according to Xinhua - also a series of prayers in the churches of Beijing for the success of the games. Jacques Rogge, president of the International Olympic Committee (IOC), has expressed his satisfaction and has predicted that the Beijing Olympics will be "a great success". In effect, construction of sport facilities has ended, as has that of infrastructure (new airport terminal, subways, streets). So far, Beijing has spent 40 billion dollars, and is preparing to spend 2.1 billion more on the games. Efforts against pollution also seem to have had some success. Since 2001, Beijing has spent more than 15 billion dollars to move polluting factories outside of the city, convert coal-powered factories to electricity, and add subway lines to limit surface traffic. The fervour of preparations and of the selling of tickets for the ceremonies seems to have overshadowed all of the controversy and demonstrations that erupted at the passage of the torch in the rest of the world, to criticise China over Darfur, the environment, human rights, and repression in Tibet. The campaign launched by the Chinese media against the "terrorism" of the Tibetans, "the Dalai Lama and his clique", the attempts to "divide the motherland", has sent nationalism sky high among the population, who view Tibetans as "ungrateful" toward China for all of the development brought to their country. Nationalism has also united the Chinese communities abroad, which are usually relatively independent with respect to the policies of the central government. Another forgotten issue is human rights. In 2001, the Chinese authorities, in order to win the games for Beijing, had promised to improve the situation of human rights. But this issue is no longer discussed, and even groups of pro-democracy Chinese activists are remaining silent out of fear that any sort of criticism against the government will be silenced as "unpatriotic". After a campaign against the Western media, "biased" against China and in favour of Tibet, petitions for human rights are judged by the authorities as only a "tool" of the West to "demonise" China. The newspapers of the communist party continue to ask the entire population to participate in a "people's struggle" against those who want to divide the country and destroy with "terrorism" the beauty of the games and the glory of China. For this reason, Zhou Yongkang, a member of the politburo and a former minister of public safety, has asked the population to work in close contact with the police to reveal incidents, people, and cases of suspected terrorism, which tend to divide the nation and ruin the games. Meanwhile the torch, after its long and controversial tour, has reached Chinese soil in Hong Kong. For days, figures like former governor Tung Chee-hwa and other Chinese representatives have been calling for acts of patriotism instead of protest demonstrations, for covering everything with red and unfurling the Chinese flag. According to local survey, 95 percent of the population of the territory supports China. But at least 15 demonstrations are expected along the route of the torch to Kowloon and the island of Hong Kong. In deference to Beijing, the governor of Hong Kong has banned three pro Tibet activists - Tsering Lama, Kate Woznow, and Matt Whitticase - from entering the territory, together with Chinese writer Zhang Yu, originating from Sweden. Several days ago, the immigration department denied a visa to Danish sculptor Jens Galschiot and his two children, all human rights activists. Also expected to arrive in Hong Kong is the actress Mia Farrow, who supports a boycott campaign against China because of its activity in Darfur