1.  Scooters have small-diameter wheels which will sink further down into potholes and other depressions, than a regular 17-21 inch motorcycles tire.  I'm no physics major, but I would also think that the small wheels would offer less gyroscopic effect, and thereby result in less upright stability.

2.  Their light weight (especially the 50cc varieties) can cause problems in dealing with cross winds.  Also, their small mass means that they are more likely to change direction after hitting bumps, than a heavier motorcycle is.

3.  Without foot pegs, the rider must use his arms more to keep his body from moving forward when the brakes are applied (instead of his feet, as with a motorcycle).  I think this would increase the chances of going over the handlebars during rapid deceleration.

4.  My final assumption concerns the inexperience of many scooter riders.  It doesn't take long for beginners to learn to rideThere's no clutch for beginners to learn how to use, so they might not be starting out slow.  I think that inexperienced scooter riders often don't learn their own limits or the limits of the scooter until an accident occurs.

These four items are just things that I pulled out of my head.  I am an experienced motorcycle rider, but I don't own a scooter, and have only ridden one on a few occaisions.  I would greatly appreciate any and all comments or additions to this list.

Where in the hell are you riding your motorcycle? I am living on the
country side with some very old and rough roads and got no problems
yet. Such potholes are dangerous for both motorcycles and scooters!

You should ride some scooters before you talk about upright stability.
I admit there are plenty of scooters where you have a "bad feeling",
but there are also other ones (mine ;-), depends on construction.

  >> 2.  Their light weight (especially the 50cc varieties) can cause problems in dealing with cross winds.  Also, their small mass means that they are more likely to change direction after hitting bumps, than a heavier motorcycle is.

On the other hand the area they show against the wind from the side is
smaller. I remember more problems with my little 50ccm motorcycle.

  >> 3.  Without foot pegs, the rider must use his arms more to keep his body from moving forward when the brakes are applied (instead of his feet, as with a motorcycle).  I think this would increase the chances of going over the handlebars during rapid deceleration.

can't imagine rapid deceleration with these VESPA brakes :-) are you
nailed on your foot pegs? ;-)

  >> 4.  My final assumption concerns the inexperience of many scooter riders.  It doesn't take long for beginners to learn to rideThere's no clutch for beginners to learn how to use, so they might not be starting out slow.  I think that inexperienced scooter riders often don't learn their own limits or the limits of the scooter until an accident occurs.

My scooter has no clutch ??? are you sure ??? Once I rode 100 km with
a broken clutch handle; I tell you it was like rodeo ...

If you read this newsgroup for some time, you see beginners ask about
750cc bikes, how about that ? By the way there are less accidents with
scooters than with motorcycles. The speed isn't high and you won't
pass as often as with a motorcycle.

  >> These four items are just things that I pulled out of my head.  I am an experienced motorcycle rider, but I don't own a scooter, and have only ridden one on a few occaisions.  I would greatly appreciate any and all comments or additions to this list.

There you are. If you need a list of positive aspects, let me know.
Note that I like motorcycles too, little brothers have XS400 and
XV800.

Mark

7 kW 2-stroke is good power for 110 kg vehicle. A normal cage has no
chance up to 70 km/h if I want to (I often want to ;-). In higher
regions the acceleration is bad, admitted, so you must take care when
passing at these speeds.
The scooter runs 100 km/h without problems, so if I don't use the
Autobahn I'm really within flow of traffic ...
On long rides I prefer the motorcycle too, but only because of time
and acoustics ;-)

The only thing a motorcycle has over a scooter in this dept is the
gas tank.. you can use your {gender specific genital words} to slam
in the tank and stop you endo-ing as you decend from warp speed to
impulse power.  (:-)

Why don't you ride a scooter for a while?  see what they can and cannot
do and base your speech on fact not "notions".

I didn't really intend to flame you with this, but I am in a position
to give a little more informed opinion of scooters and their ilk.

My 2 first 2-wheeled powered vehicles were scooters!, when I was
8 years old my grandfather located a non working Vespa 90 for me
to tinker with.  It had the carb missing and some cables broken, but
I snarfed an old AMAL carb from something and some new cables and
it ran well.  I had lots of fun with it and rode the piss out of it.
Mostly in the dirt and up hills..  I eventually sold it for 13 U.K.
pounds when I moved.

The next one was a Vespa 125.. this thing had 1 more gear than the
90 and a bucket full more balls.  This scooter could pop and hold
wheelies, go 70 mph flat out, Pull my sister behind on a piece of
roofing sheet metal (corrugated iron) with no problem.

I have since only owned motorcycles... I guess I grew out of scooters,
but that doesn't mean they aren't worth a shit.

I hope your public speaking prof doesn't grade on factual information
otherwise your up shit creek.

  John states:

  Why not spend your time and effort instead on giving a speech on the
_positive_ aspects of a form of motorcycling that _you_ enjoy, instead of
trying to put down someone else's preferred form a transportation?  Don't
forget, today's scooter riders may be tomorrow's "real" motorcyclists.

        You say it yourself: You are talking about things you pulled out of your head,
you have not experienced any of them. You have only ridden a scooter on a few
occasions.

        It looks to me like you are talking about something you don't know !! And this
is exactly the same kind of behaviour most of the motorcycle riders have to
fight. This is exactly what creates problems and trouble. People thinking they
have the ultimate knowledge while they don't know shit ! (sorry, excuse my uh
... not my French, my English (-:).

        You are acting exactly like a law maker, an old man that only rides limos with
chauffeur any more, and that says: "One day, I was smoking a cigar in the back
of my Cadillac when as I was looking outside I saw a motorcycle pass us at what
seemed a very high speed... Probably 80 mph ! I thought 'this is dangerous'.
That's why I am now campaining to [limit power of the bikes/limit their
speed/ban them on some freeways/etc ...] (pick up your own non-sense here).".

        And so, as a motorcyclist you are going to say: "This guy dosen't know what he
is talking about". The same way some scooter guy might say the same thing
listening to you.

        I am not a scooter rider, and so far the only problem you expose that I know
to be true because I've seen it is the last one. You can ride a scooter with no
or very little education of the rules of the street, it's like being a bicycle
rider, except you go much faster. A fair number of scooter riders have just
never learned how to ride and are dangerous for that, not for the fact they
ride a scooter, it would be the same thing on a moped.

        I could argue quite strongly all your other points, but it is not my goal
here.

(in very long lines)

Anyway, what's this junk about "no clutch?"  Any scooter worthy of the
name has a 3- or 4-speed transmission with a real clutch.

Further comments: You are so off base on this that you forgot to
mention that they are underpowered.  Of course, real scooters have
motors somewhere in the range 350-750cc, so we'll throw that out too.

I think I would assume that your task is to present an untenable
argument, which will win you much kudos in the debating team.  Or
perhaps you intend to become a politician, and are practicing your
reasons for banning motorcycles when you are elected?

Let me see if I can come up with some more assumptions to support your
case:

5) Riding scooters is cool.  All the innocent daughters of local
citizens will ride on them and die.

6) Riding scooters is cool.  All the innocent daughters of local
citizens will go out with scooter riders, take drugs, and become
pregnant.

7) All scooters are red, and everyone knows that red is the colour of
the devil.

8) The fuel tank of a scooter contains gasoline, which will explode if
the scooter falls over.

9) Scooters have handlebars, and beginners are more used to car
steering wheels and will therefore turn them the wrong way in corners.

10) Scooters are temptingly cheap, and will cause the nation's youth
to get credit cards and become bankrupt.

11) Scooters are temptingly cheap, and will cause the nation's youth
to sell drugs to support their scooter habit.  Many scooters have a
secret luggage compartment under the seat just for this reason!

12) Scooters are so manoeuverable that they are used by organised
crime as courier vehicles.  Anyone riding a scooter will be forced to
join the mafia.

13) Scooters are the chosen transport of Hells Angels, now that they
are too recognisable on bikes.

14) The Klu Klux Klan uses scooters so that their robes don't catch in
the wheels.

15) Since robes don't catch in the wheels, scooters encourage monks
and nuns to ride around and get involved in sinful activities.

16) Some scooters have the ancient words "VESPA", "MIACO" (sp?), and
"LAMBRETTA" on them, which we all know are the names of demons who
engineered St. Christopher's martyrdom.

I hope you will add these points to your speech to support your
personal belief.  I think the Public Speaking class will enjoy them.

(Note to readers: I'd add a :-) but I'm afraid this person thinks that
it is just fine to invent assumptions to support personal belief.)

Next week: Mr. Stichnoth will present his assumptions to assert his
personal belief that helmet law opponents are space aliens who are
holding Elvis prisoner. :-)

Curbs.  Hit a curb on a bicycle and you will likely go up and over the
curb.  A motorcycle will also go up and over, possibly scraping something.  
A car will trash the suspension, but not you.  Hit a curb on a scooter and
you are toast.  I know this from experience.

|>2.  Their light weight (especially the 50cc varieties) can cause problems
|>in dealing with cross winds.  Also, their small mass means that they are
|>more likely to change direction after hitting bumps, than a heavier
|>motorcycle is.
|
|True, but try driving a van or perhaps an 18-wheeler in crosswinds..
|this affects everyone.  Pound for pound I don't think the difference
|in mass between a scooter and motorcycle is gonna make all that much
|difference. Avoid bumps!

Yup.  And bumps are everywhere.  But I do agree that wind is no worse
than on a mc, except that the steering geometry is often poor, and that
affects handling in general, including wind handling.

|>3.  Without foot pegs, the rider must use his arms more to keep his body
|>from moving forward when the brakes are applied (instead of his feet, as
|>with a motorcycle).  I think this would increase the chances of going over
|>the handlebars during rapid deceleration.
|
|This is crap, unadulterated.  Scooters have floorboards... I've never
|seen motorcycles with toe clips ala racing bicycles.. so how are your
|legs going to fly forward during rapid deceleration?

Your whole lower body flies forward on a scooter.  Floorboards don't do
shit.  Why do you think that you often see people riding around with
their feet on the downtubes?  

I think he was referring to a cruiser styled motorcycle, with forward
pegs.  You can stand on those.

|The only thing a motorcycle has over a scooter in this dept is the
|gas tank.. you can use your {gender specific genital words} to slam
|in the tank and stop you endo-ing as you decend from warp speed to
|impulse power.  (:-)

Crap.  You are SUPPOSED to squeeze the tank with your knees.  That you
cannot do on a step-through.

|>4.  My final assumption concerns the inexperience of many scooter riders.
|>It doesn't take long for beginners to learn to rideThere's no clutch for
|>beginners to learn how to use, so they might not be starting out slow.  I
|>think that inexperienced scooter riders often don't learn their own limits
|>or the limits of the scooter until an accident occurs.
|
|What about the inexperience of almost anyone that drives a /mc/car/truck
|boat/etc etc  Being on a scooter does not neccessarily mean you have
|no experience!  The vehicle does not the driver make.

Inexperience of car drivers?  Most car drivers have been driving for upwards
of ten years.  Most scooter drivers are teenagers without even more than a
drivers permit, and lots of bicycle experience, which they thinks prepares
them for riding a scooter in traffic.  They are quite mistaken.

|>These four items are just things that I pulled out of my head.  I am an
|>experienced motorcycle rider, but I don't own a scooter, and have only
|>ridden one on a few occaisions.  I would greatly appreciate any and all
|>comments or additions to this list.
|
|So basically you're not in the position to give an informed opinion then.
|
|Why don't you ride a scooter for a while?  see what they can and cannot
|do and base your speech on fact not "notions".

Okay, facts:    1. Scooters are unstable at speed, due to frame geometry.
                2. Scooters lack useable power.  Most can't out accelerate
                        a car.
                3. Scooter brakes are terrible.

Those are just the physical problems.  The problem of rider experience is
also serious.  Most of us would agree that safe motorcycle riding takes
greater traffic skills than safe auto driving.  Yet, the regulations over
scooters are MUCH more lax than either autos or motos, which is why they
are so attractive to inexperienced, uneducated riders.  I mean, how many
scooter riders you see out there know about counter-steering?

|I didn't really intend to flame you with this, but I am in a position
|to give a little more informed opinion of scooters and their ilk.
|
|My 2 first 2-wheeled powered vehicles were scooters!, when I was
|8 years old my grandfather located a non working Vespa 90 for me
|to tinker with.  It had the carb missing and some cables broken, but
|I snarfed an old AMAL carb from something and some new cables and
|it ran well.  I had lots of fun with it and rode the piss out of it.
|Mostly in the dirt and up hills..  I eventually sold it for 13 U.K.
|pounds when I moved.

8 years old.  And you say scooter riders have experience?  See, yours
is a perfect example.  Do you really think you were a safe
rider, with that level of experience?  Safe enough to be on the streets
where you see scooters now?

|The next one was a Vespa 125.. this thing had 1 more gear than the
|90 and a bucket full more balls.  This scooter could pop and hold
|wheelies, go 70 mph flat out, Pull my sister behind on a piece of
|roofing sheet metal (corrugated iron) with no problem.

And how old were you then?  Don't you really think that a kid popping
wheelies on a shimmying frame is a tad bit unsafe?

I have a similar story, until I took a fall and realized that these things
have real problems.  I mean, I could stop better on my bicycle!

|I have since only owned motorcycles... I guess I grew out of scooters,
|but that doesn't mean they aren't worth a shit.

Perhaps it doesn't mean that, but they still aren't worth shit.

Of course, there are undoubtedly exceptions.  I have never ridden a
Vespa (mine was actually a Guzzi moped, with pedals, but I have ridden
Honda step-throughs).  Maybe Vespa's rival a goof2 for handling a braking
(but I doubt it).

|Regards

Yeah, right.

Actually, I'd like to see scooters outlawed for a completely different
reason...

        They make our people look like absolute fools.

:-):-)
^^^^^^^^^^
Note smiley indicating that I'm making a tounge-in-check joke here.
Feel free to flame me if it wasn't very funny/whatever, but NOT
because we really shouldn't outlaw scooters.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please read the above before you flame... oh, the hell with it.  You
guys are gonna flame the shit outta me anyway, so I might just as well
accept it and stick to my guns.  ALL SCOOTERS SUCK!!!  PEOPLE WHO RIDE
THEM (except for the racer types in Motorcyclist a while back) DESERVE
TO BE SLOWLY ROASTED OVER A BEEMER JUG!!!!

MWUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

;^}

Mark

Congrats, you've recognized your problem. You've never ridden a Vespa ...

In europe at least you can't say 'scooter' without saying Vespa.
And the construction features have a touch of genius (except the
brakes ;-)

It's not by chance that mainly Vespa riders defend the image of
scooters.  

|difference. Avoid bumps!

|The only thing a motorcycle has over a scooter in this dept is the
|gas tank.. you can use your {gender specific genital words} to slam
|in the tank and stop you endo-ing as you decend from warp speed to
|impulse power.  (:-)

Crap.  You are SUPPOSED to squeeze the tank with your knees.  That you
cannot do on a step-through.

Oooohhh A FACT!!! A FACT!!

|>4.  My final assumption concerns the inexperience of many scooter riders.

|I have since only owned motorcycles... I guess I grew out of scooters,
|but that doesn't mean they aren't worth a shit.

Potholes, yeah, the small wheels are worse for that, but same deal. Scooters
are very manoeuvrable and easy to handle. Footpegs or not, there's still a
decent place to put your feet, and operating a scooter is simple.

All in all I would not say that they're more dangerous, but they have to be
ridden differently. You can keep up with traffic sometimes, but you have
to know when to keep to the side and let people go, similar to bicycle
riding. The little racks and compartments are handy for carrying junk, and
it's very common in Montreal to see scooters with milk crates tied to
the racks. Scooters have their uses.

I had a different feeling about them when I was in my Oldsmobile on a major
highway, and this guy sitting on what looked like a chair was in the middle
of my lane going about as fast as one would on a chair and I swerved at
the last second and it was a guy on a scooter doing half the speed limit
who should have been very happy to be alive at that moment...

And the fellow doing the speech about dangerous scooters probably has
never SEEN a Vespa.  The aren't exactly the rage here.  The Japanese
scooters are much more popular, and quite bad.

        Safe?  Not when I compare it to other bikes I've ridden.  The
small tires and little suspension made themselves known once when I
rounded a corner and hit a small object.  Luckily, I still have my
front teeth as I was close to a dentist's office.

        It handled like a toboggan and slowed like a semi.  I'll keep
my CB750 for now -- it's much safer.

I really can't say whether scooters are any more or less dangerous
that motorcycles in their design, but I do think there is a problem
with the public's general perception of scooters vs. motorcycles.
I have witnessed a few two-wheeled accidents in my time, and the
worst was definitely not the motorcyclist catching a rut in the
road and driving head first into a speed-limit signpost (4x4).  He
had taken appropriate responsibility with his machine (leather
jacket, boots, and helmet, which he was VERY thankful for), and
even due to operator error he was able to ride home, bent handlebars
and all.

A scooter incident wasn't as happy.  I saw a girl approaching a
T intersection on the straight-through portion, with no stop sign
in her direction.  A car on the T leg at a stop sign inched forward
a bit, causing her to panic-brake and dump the scooter.  At about
25-30mph with no protective gear (t-shirt, shorts, and I believe
sandals) it was a less than pleasant sight.

Both of these incidents were due to an error on the rider's part,
not due directly to any machine shortcoming.  It was just that the
scooter rider was not prepared for such an incident at all.  I'm
sure the scooter was a present from daddy, to get from the dorms to
class and back, and probably nobody gave a second thought to safety
equipment or training.  After all, she wouldn't be riding on the
freeway, right?

Motorcycles are generally taken more seriously, and until the same
applies to scooters, I will believe that motorcycles are safer, due
to the riders that choose to ride them.  You must take the appropriate
responsibility for what you ride.  Education and public awareness
(on all sides) will do wonders, where helmet laws, etc., will barely
make a dent.

Or at least that's what I've led myself to believe :-)

having ridden little honda elite's
i've come to the conclusion that
they're relatively safe except
occasionally there is a loose nut
behind the handlebars that can
cause the scooter to do erratic
maneuvers

:-)

it's been a long day
and it's nice outside
and i'm stuck in here

Please clarify for me if you actually have any knowledge of this.