Just read Andre's .PDF on his Kranich - which seems tb built for durability/long wear.
Given that rim brakes eventually wear out the wheel; given that Kranich's wheels are special items; and given that even mechanical discs give sufficient power/modulation - my uninformed reaction is that the bike would be more durable with disc brakes.
But the guys who build those things have forgotten more than I'll ever know about bikes.... so where am I going wrong? -- PeteCresswell
On Nov 7, 8:24 pm, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> Just read Andre's .PDF on his Kranich - which seems tb built for > durability/long wear.
> Given that rim brakes eventually wear out the wheel; given that > Kranich's wheels are special items; and given that even > mechanical discs give sufficient power/modulation - my uninformed > reaction is that the bike would be more durable with disc brakes.
> But the guys who build those things have forgotten more than I'll > ever know about bikes.... so where am I going wrong?
The Maguras make perfect sense for a city going bike. Fragile bike brake rotors easily get warped and banged up in town. With the Maguras you get that luxe feel of hydro with a very large rotor that's not warping or overheating. ;-)
Wouldn't be my 1st choice with linear pull brakes being cheap, mature, and simple.
As for wearing the rim--that requires both miles and conditions. Other posters have mentioned the grit in the Pacific Northwest as being very destructive.
> Given that rim brakes eventually wear out the wheel; given that > Kranich's wheels are special items; and given that even > mechanical discs give sufficient power/modulation - my uninformed > reaction is that the bike would be more durable with disc brakes.
Disc rotors are far less durable than rims, in terms of mean hours/ miles before failure. They seem like they should be as undemanding as the disc rotors on my motorcycle, but in practice it becomes clear they find any excuse to warp or bend.
Drums would be the best choice for longevity, cleanliness, and low maintenance-- but they require a long break-in, they are fussy about lever characteristics, they require more hand force, and they feel mushier when dialed in than good rim or disc brakes. As currently implemented, they multiply the nuisance involved in removing any wheel.
It would be nice if there were a category of disc brakes for utility bikes, with smaller but thicker rotors and larger pads. These most likely would offer longer maintenance intervals and more durable rotors. Incidentally, this description covers the Sachs discs brakes that were used on bicycles before any of the discs we are familiar with now.
On Nov 8, 2:24 am, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> Just read Andre's .PDF on his Kranich - which seems tb built for > durability/long wear.
> Given that rim brakes eventually wear out the wheel; given that > Kranich's wheels are special items; and given that even > mechanical discs give sufficient power/modulation - my uninformed > reaction is that the bike would be more durable with disc brakes.
> But the guys who build those things have forgotten more than I'll > ever know about bikes.... so where am I going wrong? > -- > PeteCresswell
The sort of people who can contemplate buying a Utopia Kranich will tell you how it will outlast ten cheaper bikes. That's true, of course, but, for fear of being called elitists, they're not telling you the real reason they bought it, which is refinement. (The same applies to people who own Bentleys.) My dealer told me that most people take the Magura rim brakes, and Utopia ask customers to try the HS11 brakes as supplied, without the booster, before ordering the booster. All of this is about refinement. There are no smoother or more progressive or more controllable bike stoppers than the Magura HS11 as fitted to Utopia bikes. (I also have bikes with discs and roller brakes; I'm a big fan of the latter for hooliganning downhill but nobody pretends Shimano's 70-series rollers are smooth or progressive.)
As for the "sorglos" aspect, literally "carefree", which we translate more prosaically as "low maintenance", ask yourself how many times you will have to change disc brake pads if you take the option of Magura Louise discs rather than the default of HS11; probably at least five or six times over the expected life of a rim. You see, what you miss is that most Utopia owners are very unlikely to do as much as change a set of pads. They'd take it to the dealer. Moreover, Utopia's ten year guarantee depends on annual inspections, at which a worn rim will be noticed by the dealer and replaced. So a rim replacement, to the owner of Utopia Kranich with Rohloff and SON hubs, seems like a routine job requiring no special arrangements or allocation of time, whereas a disc pad replacement upsets his schedule and peace of mind.
Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim brakes are so popular.
I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes, very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there, nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of refinement.
*** My impression of the people at Utopia is that they've spent more than a quarter-century thinking hard about what will be functionally pleasing to their customers. It has made them the best of the custom builders in Germany, which very likely means in the world. If their bikes weren't so contemptuous of fashion, precisely because of their obsessive attention to detail, their persistent attitude that the merely good is the enemy of the perfect, they would probably be the size of Trek...
*** The other element of refinement people don't want to talk about because, in addition to sounding like elitists, it makes them sound arrogant, is that the smoothness of refinement makes a vehicle, even a bicycle, feel powerful. Abrupt brakes, or brakes that require constant attention to avoid a face-plant, would soon undermine that pleasing perception.
So, paradoxically, the Kranich is a smooth, refined, powerful bike in a large part because of its effortless progressive stopping behaviour with the Magura HS 11. Another big input to refinement (and power!) of precisely the same nature is made by the smooth ride and tenacious roadholding of the 622x60 Big Apples. The comparison above with a Bentley isn't fanciful at all.
Andre Jute A little, a very little thought will suffice -- John Maynard Keynes
On 8 Nov, 02:24, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> Just read Andre's .PDF on his Kranich - which seems tb built for > durability/long wear.
> Given that rim brakes eventually wear out the wheel; given that > Kranich's wheels are special items; and given that even > mechanical discs give sufficient power/modulation - my uninformed > reaction is that the bike would be more durable with disc brakes.
> But the guys who build those things have forgotten more than I'll > ever know about bikes.... so where am I going wrong? > -- > PeteCresswell
The wheels use wide 622 rims. I don't think them exceptional from normality in any way. Adding a brake rotor detracts from appearance generally, the typical purchaser would likely have a conservative attitude. Adding a brake rotor is adding another item for failure reducing the MTBF.
thirty-six wrote: > On 8 Nov, 02:24, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote: >> Just read Andre's .PDF on his Kranich - which seems tb built for >> durability/long wear.
>> Given that rim brakes eventually wear out the wheel; given that >> Kranich's wheels are special items; and given that even >> mechanical discs give sufficient power/modulation - my uninformed >> reaction is that the bike would be more durable with disc brakes.
>> But the guys who build those things have forgotten more than I'll >> ever know about bikes.... so where am I going wrong? >> -- >> PeteCresswell
> The wheels use wide 622 rims. I don't think them exceptional from > normality in any way. Adding a brake rotor detracts from appearance > generally, the typical purchaser would likely have a conservative > attitude. Adding a brake rotor is adding another item for failure > reducing the MTBF.
Not sure I entirely agree with that in a) I don't think they detract that much[1] and b) I'd prefer a rotor failure to a rim failure. However, what I did notice was the rotor causes a considerable dish which I understood was a thing to be minimised in the search for strong wheels.
[1] Ok, they do a bit, but this is UBT so just cos we agree doesn't mean we can't argue :)
> thirty-six wrote: > > On 8 Nov, 02:24, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote: > >> Just read Andre's .PDF on his Kranich - which seems tb built for > >> durability/long wear.
> >> Given that rim brakes eventually wear out the wheel; given that > >> Kranich's wheels are special items; and given that even > >> mechanical discs give sufficient power/modulation - my uninformed > >> reaction is that the bike would be more durable with disc brakes.
> >> But the guys who build those things have forgotten more than I'll > >> ever know about bikes.... so where am I going wrong? > >> -- > >> PeteCresswell
> > The wheels use wide 622 rims. I don't think them exceptional from > > normality in any way. Adding a brake rotor detracts from appearance > > generally, the typical purchaser would likely have a conservative > > attitude. Adding a brake rotor is adding another item for failure > > reducing the MTBF.
> Not sure I entirely agree with that in a) I don't think they detract > that much[1] and b) I'd prefer a rotor failure to a rim failure. > However, what I did notice was the rotor causes a considerable dish > which I understood was a thing to be minimised in the search for > strong wheels.
There are only fools who search for strong wheels for bicycles. It is simple to make a strong wheel, use a steel disc. What involves a little more thought is the design which enables a wheel to maintain lateral rigidity at the road AND not be subjected to excessive radial rigidity, so the wheel is capable of absorbing shock and assist in the known duties of the tyre.
The amount of dish is not important if the wheel retains lateral stability with riding loads. What may matter is that by narrowing the offset for spoke attatchment at the hub, the radial stiffness of the wheel may be too great to effect any useful shock absorbtion in the wheel when lateral stability is obtained. This is why it is important to improve lateral stability without resort to increasing spoke tension. As Rudge-Whitworth (largest tension wheel manufacturer in England and probably the world) found a century ago, the best running wheels are those which are radially"soft".
> [1] Ok, they do a bit, but this is UBT so just cos we agree doesn't > mean we can't argue :)
> Just read Andre's .PDF on his Kranich - which seems tb built for > durability/long wear.
> Given that rim brakes eventually wear out the wheel; given that > Kranich's wheels are special items; and given that even > mechanical discs give sufficient power/modulation - my uninformed > reaction is that the bike would be more durable with disc brakes.
> But the guys who build those things have forgotten more than I'll > ever know about bikes.... so where am I going wrong?
I think you are wrong. Magura's are exceptional troublefree brakes. If rim wear bothers you get ceramic rims, like I did. Not only the wear rate drops to a level that it does not have to bother anyone, but the braking power increases significant and come very close to hydraulic disks. On my off road bikes I have: - Avid Ultimate V brakes, - Hope Mini's hydraulics, - Magura HS 33, - Avid BB7 mechanical disk, - Formula Oro hydraulics
All good brakes but after the Formula's the Magura's are my favorite brakes.
André Jute wrote: > [...] > Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in > fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles > are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim > brakes are so popular.
> I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the > dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes, > very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the > stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another > bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very > carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there, > nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of > refinement.[...]
Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
-- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist.
> André Jute wrote: >> [...] >> Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in >> fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles >> are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim >> brakes are so popular.
>> I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the >> dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes, >> very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the >> stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another >> bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very >> carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there, >> nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of >> refinement.[...]
> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to > useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
Lou Holtman wrote: > Tom Sherman °_° schreef: >> André Jute wrote: >>> [...] >>> Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in >>> fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles >>> are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim >>> brakes are so popular.
>>> I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the >>> dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes, >>> very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the >>> stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another >>> bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very >>> carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there, >>> nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of >>> refinement.[...]
>> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to >> useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
> And disc's don´t? I have to disagree.
The disc is not a tire's height from the road either, so it get much less contaminated.
-- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist.
> Lou Holtman wrote: > > Tom Sherman °_° schreef: > >> André Jute wrote: > >>> [...] > >>> Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in > >>> fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles > >>> are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim > >>> brakes are so popular.
> >>> I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the > >>> dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes, > >>> very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the > >>> stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another > >>> bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very > >>> carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there, > >>> nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of > >>> refinement.[...]
> >> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to > >> useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
> > And disc's don´t? I have to disagree.
> The disc is not a tire's height from the road either, so it get much > less contaminated.
The oil dripping from the hub will still contaminate the tyre.
On Nov 8, 5:58 am, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> I think you are wrong. Magura's are exceptional troublefree brakes. If > rim wear bothers you get ceramic rims, like I did. Not only the wear > rate drops to a level that it does not have to bother anyone, but the > braking power increases significant and come very close to hydraulic > disks.
I don't know what you mean by braking power. Do you mean getting more braking for a given amount of effort at at the lever?
When phrased just as "braking power", I don't know what I would do with more of it (on a single bike, not a tandem). All my single bikes' front brakes can lift the rear wheel, and all the rear brakes can skid.
> On Nov 8, 5:58 am, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
>> I think you are wrong. Magura's are exceptional troublefree brakes. If >> rim wear bothers you get ceramic rims, like I did. Not only the wear >> rate drops to a level that it does not have to bother anyone, but the >> braking power increases significant and come very close to hydraulic >> disks.
> I don't know what you mean by braking power. > Do you mean getting more braking for a given > amount of effort at at the lever?
Yes.
> When phrased just as "braking power", I don't know what > I would do with more of it (on a single bike, not a tandem). > All my single bikes' front brakes can lift the rear wheel, > and all the rear brakes can skid.
On Nov 8, 11:31 am, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> > I don't know what you mean by braking power. > > Do you mean getting more braking for a given > > amount of effort at at the lever?
> Yes.
That I understand (although I wouldn't say "more power" if the difference I was referring to was one of more mechanical advantage).
> > Or do you mean wet weather performance?
> Just -m/s2 in any condition.
In dry weather (which is all there is where I live) there's no difference between any decent brakes by that measure. They all have more power than can be used.
> On Nov 8, 11:31 am, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
>>> I don't know what you mean by braking power. >>> Do you mean getting more braking for a given >>> amount of effort at at the lever? >> Yes.
> That I understand (although I wouldn't say > "more power" if the difference I was referring > to was one of more mechanical advantage).
>>> Or do you mean wet weather performance? >> Just -m/s2 in any condition.
> In dry weather (which is all there is where I live) > there's no difference between any decent brakes > by that measure. They all have more power than > can be used.
So are you saying that there is no difference in stop distance between all brakes? Like I said I use all sorts of brakes and they are all good brakes, even in the wet so I agree with you that any decent brake can do the job.
Tom Sherman °_° wrote: > André Jute wrote: >> [...] >> Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in >> fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles >> are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim >> brakes are so popular.
>> I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the >> dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes, >> very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the >> stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another >> bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very >> carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there, >> nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of >> refinement.[...]
> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to > useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
<twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote: > André Jute wrote: > > [...] > > Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in > > fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles > > are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim > > brakes are so popular.
> > I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the > > dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes, > > very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the > > stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another > > bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very > > carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there, > > nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of > > refinement.[...]
> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to > useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
Things might be deaf'rent in Upper Volta, but, having ridden hundreds of miles in snowy & icy weather, in ice-storms, through powder, slush, & mud I can't say that I have ever had snow or ice stick on a rim long enough to have any serious effect on braking. It's not that I believe it cannot happen, but rather that I fail to see the sense in building an entire system around avoiding something I have never seen, despite numerous opportunities.
On Nov 8, 10:24 pm, Norman <invasivenor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Things might be deaf'rent in Upper Volta, but,
Been there, done that, when it was still called Upper Volta. But, even now that it is called Burkina Faso, there is still no snow and ice, only dust and mud.
> On Nov 8, 10:04 am, Tom Sherman °_° > <twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote: >> André Jute wrote: >>> [...] >>> Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in >>> fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles >>> are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim >>> brakes are so popular. >>> I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the >>> dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes, >>> very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the >>> stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another >>> bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very >>> carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there, >>> nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of >>> refinement.[...] >> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to >> useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
> Things might be deaf'rent in Upper Volta, but, having > ridden hundreds of miles in snowy & icy weather, in > ice-storms, through powder, slush, & mud I can't say > that I have ever had snow or ice stick on a rim long > enough to have any serious effect on braking. It's > not that I believe it cannot happen, but rather that > I fail to see the sense in building an entire system > around avoiding something I have never seen, > despite numerous opportunities.
It is an almost normal reaction from people with disc brakes. Suddenly rimbrakes have huge disadvantages and become useless. Ridiculous of course. Rimbrakes have their disadvantages so do (hydraulic) discbrakes but both can be fine brakes. To me the major disadvantages of rimbrakes are rimwear and cable fuzz, not the stopping power or modulation. For road use these disadvantages can't be showstoppers.
<twshermanREM...@THISsouthslope.net> wrote: > André Jute wrote: > > [...] > > Add to this the fact that disc brakes totally lack refinement -- in > > fact, compared to the Magura rim hydraulics, disc brakes on bicycles > > are pretty loutish -- and you have a pretty good idea why the rim > > brakes are so popular.
> > I originally wanted the Louise discs but am glad now that I took the > > dealers advice and accepted the HS11. They're zero -thought brakes, > > very smooth and progressive, none of that unseemly lurching at the > > stop line that pitches you out of the saddle. If I ever order another > > bike I'd have to consider the Magura rim hydraulics very, very > > carefully, because they just plain do the job; they're just there, > > nothing obtrusive about them, which is a good definition of > > refinement.[...]
> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to > useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
That's a pretty ivory tower view.
At all times maximum retardation of any vehicle is limited by the coefficient of friction between tyre and road; a bicycle is further limited by the very high centre of gravity of bicycle and load including rider. All that this hypothetical snow and ice of yours on the rim does is to equalize the braking power to safe levels of somewhere under 0.6g/s^2. Hardly much of a loss when it is unlikely that most people ever manage to slow faster on their bikes than say 0.4g.
I don't have any snow (to be precise, I don't have snow often enough or long enough or regularly enough to have much cycling experience in it) and genuinely icy roads only for a few hours a day at the depth of the worst winters though still not enough to ice up the rims on my bike, but I do have wet rims often as we have quite a bit of rain year- round. I have never found wet rims to slow me appreciably or even noticeably; I ride the same way and brake the same way wet or dry. Others, Norman for instance, are reporting the same experience in colder climes.
The upper *effective real life* limit of bicycle braking, I conclude, is not affected by choice of brakes (rims brakes cable or hydraulic, disc brakes, rollers, drums) because, as has been said here often enough to become axiomatic, the braking power of all decent brakes now in use exceeds the limits gravity imposes on the rider.
Once reduced to real life then, one doesn't choose brakes for their absolute stopping power, because all have more than enough regardless of weather conditions, but for other reasons (initial cost, durability, maintenance, convenience, fashion, whatever). Magura's hydraulic rim brakes are a no-brainer for their refinement and virtually zero maintenance, and they are at the cheap end of good brakes too.
Andre Jute "The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument which must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-Pelayo Ricart Medina
> > >> Rim brakes are significantly degraded in wet conditions, and next to > > >> useless when the rim is covered in snow or ice.
> > > And disc's don´t? I have to disagree.
> > The disc is not a tire's height from the road either, so it get much > > less contaminated.
> Drum brakes tie with coaster brakes for the win!
> Chalo
I can understand why Herr Rohloff hasn't made a version of his hub gearbox for Shimano's roller brakes:
1. The roller brakes would need to be replaced a few times over the life of the gearbox. 2. It is unreasonably expensive for a small firm to provide for more than two forms of braking. (Rohloff provides for a rim brake and/or a disc brake.) 3. The major Rohloff market, mudpluggers, have a disc-brake culture, so sales may be uncertain.
But, certainly, if roller brakes were to become available on the Rohloff, I would choose roller brakes rather than discs. The Rohloff/ roller brake combo would be a lot nearer zero maintenance than any kind of rim brake or disc brake can come. And roller brakes, while nowhere near as refined as Magura hydraulic rim brakes, are a little easier to modulate than disc brakes.
Thing is, until I see how long my rims last with the Magura hydraulic rim brakes, I'm not at all certain that I would choose rollers over the Magura rim brakes. I've just become too accustomed to that smooth progressivity; it might well be worth rebuilding my wheels every ten years or whatever.
|
