Qilang Google Group

Shen

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Sun, 11 Nov 2009 17:29:01 UT

Hi,

It was suggested that Shen should be relocated to google code due to
license issues e.g.
QiII not seen as an open license and hence not possible to keep at
giithub, I let BoopCore
still be located at github, because I will dual license that code
because there are people who would work only in QiII and others who

resolving support and internet connection

dr.mtar...@ukonline.co.uk (Mark Tarver) — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:00:34 UT

Just to warn that Lambda Associates may be offline for a temporary
period from next week as I sort out service problems from India. *
This is not a major permanent shutdown * and may not even occur, but
I'm simply warning people that this might happen because resolving
this stuff is more difficult from India.

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Sat, 11 Nov 2009 10:33:35 UT

Great,

This is how I try to divide the work.

There is one framework dual licensed under QiII and LPGL that is
the rewrite I've been doing and will live at github under the Shen
project.
Mainly the BoopCore directory.

Here the code transformer and the core pattern matching tool will be
placed.

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

emekami...@gmail.com (Emeka) — Fri, 11 Nov 2009 18:37:30 UT

I like this.

2. Dig out how to best do certain things like simple tail call
May try here.

I would try here.

I am not a language designer but this sounds interesting

This would be exciting.

I would enjoy this.

Thanks for the offer.

Regards,
Emeka

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Fri, 11 Nov 2009 10:49:41 UT

Can you suggest what area you would like to help with.

Such as (my examples here, please fill in your own if you like so),

1. Answer specific clojure questions
2. Dig out how to best do certain things like simple tail call
optimizations, fast stack implementation for qi-prolog etc.
3. Find out about things that can be hard to implement in clojure in

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

n2...@yahoo.com (n2kra) — Thu, 11 Nov 2009 18:43:28 UT

Qi is/was #+CL implementation conditionalized in like 4 places.
I think the trickiest part is below. (now) CCL is ? mostly compiled ?
This did not work in Qi 8.0 -

(DEFUN fix-closures ()
#+CMU (SETQ *closures* '(FUNCTION COMPILED-FUNCTION
EVAL::INTERPRETED-FUNCTION))
#+CLISP (SETQ *closures* '(FUNCTION COMPILED-FUNCTION))

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

emekami...@gmail.com (Emeka) — Thu, 11 Nov 2009 07:09:10 UT

Would by any means allow me to participate in it. I won't add much weigh but
I would do my best.

Regards,
Emeka

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:47:16 UT

The infrastructure is almost there, I just need a couple of day's mare
and then I will
start to write the translational code

/Stefan

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

emekami...@gmail.com (Emeka) — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:42:18 UT

Snorgers,

Have you started porting to Clojure?

Regards,
Emeka

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Tue, 11 Nov 2009 21:16:06 UT

Hi Nik,

If you would like to try porting it, that's great. You can ask
questions
on the forum and I will try answer your question as good as I can.
I usually check it at least once a day.

Regards
Stefan

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

rao...@gmail.com (Raoul Duke) — Tue, 11 Nov 2009 18:24:23 UT

since in theory CCL is a Common Lisp then it should be a small job to
do. but i don't really know, i'm just theorizing.

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

emekami...@gmail.com (Emeka) — Tue, 11 Nov 2009 20:17:51 UT

Nik,
It is time you turn the "you" to "I". It would be exciting following your
work, hope you will start soon.

Regards,
Janus

Re: Qi on Clozure CL

nitral...@googlemail.com (Nik) — Tue, 11 Nov 2009 14:30:34 UT

Dear Nik,

Seemingly nobody!
By the way I know you very well!
You are a smart guy and you should be able to do it yourself:-)

Regards
Nik

test-reader.qi

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Thu, 11 Nov 2009 23:16:45 UT

I've now been running same tests and made a couple of examples where
the focus have been in the Yacc part and the segment part of the code
as well as a General Streaming method.

as an example I did a parser for a toy lang. and then created a
modified list stream that
added the capabilities to let the line column and depth be kept in

Re: einstein riddle

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:28:13 UT

This is actually an interesting question (maybe I'm missing the point
but oh well)

consider
def f (u [(m X) Y]) Cont -> ...

now if the input to the function is unbound it will be bound to [X Y]
but this is not enough.
you should bind it to (u [(m X) Y]) and then in the unifications done

Re: einstein riddle

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Sun, 11 Nov 2009 23:56:44 UT

Here is generated lisp for "member"

(DEFUN member (V1466 V1467 V1468)
(LABELS ((g285 ()
(LET ((X1430 (lookup V1467)))
(IF (CONSP X1430)
(LABELS ((g287 ()
(IF
(EQ (PROGN (newframe) (unify V1466 (CAR

Re: einstein riddle

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Sun, 11 Nov 2009 23:21:13 UT

Hi Mark,

Good to see you back and great questions

i) I decided to manage the stack explicitly with a simple array,

ii) I decided to see the impact of an array of cons cells and
allocations of cons cells for
many operations that is done from this stack hence there is a lot
less consing going on

Re: einstein riddle

dr.mtar...@ukonline.co.uk (Mark Tarver) — Sun, 11 Nov 2009 17:35:50 UT

Just dropped in; looked at the code for Shen. Interesting; some
questions to reflect on though.

1. The 10X speedup sounds great but some details would be good. How
is the speedup gained? What does the generated Lisp code look like?

2. What is the declarative meaning of u? I guess it means 'unifies'.

Re: einstein riddle

st...@keptprivate.com (stever) — Thu, 10 Oct 2009 01:12:58 UT

Thanks for the explanation.
I had a different impression from Mark's original Shen proposal.
It really clears up the approach you are taking.
I've got a lot to learn before I will have any insights ;-)

Re: einstein riddle

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Tue, 10 Oct 2009 22:42:02 UT

OK, I've replaced define with def in the Lambda.qi file and called it
Lambda.boop.qi
It now can compile itself. The next step is to spend a week writing
tests for it.

The plan is then to start write a typechecker that is turned on all
time that use type driven code
generation to generate target code e.g. lisp and clojure ... it will

Re: einstein riddle

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Mon, 10 Oct 2009 21:30:10 UT

The idea is that Shen will be a version of QI that work on "any" lisp
like platform.

The approach is to write a set of core libs in qi and then make a
compilation
to selected platforms like clojure and CL.

The conclusion I draw from that was that the prolog engine in qi had
to be
rewritten. As a consequence the code is

Re: einstein riddle

st...@keptprivate.com (stever) — Mon, 10 Oct 2009 03:17:41 UT

Hi Stefan,

I'm new to Qi and I get the impression that you are porting Qi to
Clojure.
I haven't seen any description of the plans for Shen and was wondering
if you are considering the Clojure work the basis of Shen?

I've been away from Lisp and functional programming for quite a while,
but I really like what Mark has done with Qi. When I get up to speed

Re: einstein riddle

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Fri, 10 Oct 2009 22:08:20 UT

Hi,

The previous result was for manually cleaned lisp code aka proof of
method. Now
after making this cleaning as part of the compilation auto-generated
lisp takes 21ms
to solve the Einstein riddle. In the process code has been tested and
bugs squashed.

I also prepared the code in a state so that it can experimented with

Re: einstein riddle

rao...@gmail.com (Raoul Duke) — Sun, 10 Oct 2009 21:00:35 UT

that is pretty exciting news! congratulations :)
sincerely.

einstein riddle

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:27:54 UT

Hi,

I've been busy coding for some time. I now have a working basic
framework. This framework can be used to combine backtracking and
unifications to builed prolog like features. E.g. in my view a natural
building block to spark Shen from.

The last couple of week's I've been focusing in understanding how to

Qi on Clozure CL

nitral...@googlemail.com (Nik) — Fri, 10 Oct 2009 10:08:49 UT

Hi folks,

Does somebody work on porting Qi to Clozure CL?

Regards
Nik

Re: Need more eyes on two small Qi-YACC parsers

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Thu, 09 Sep 2009 18:53:16 UT

You should now that the symbols in qi follows the rules of comon-lisp
that
qi package.

You need to work at the character stream level and or work with
strings

/Stefan

Re: Need more eyes on two small Qi-YACC parsers

danieljom...@gmail.com (Daniel Jomphe) — Thu, 09 Sep 2009 00:39:55 UT

Thinking of it, I don't even need ::= to be parsed as ::=. My real
intention is to translate stuff. But I'm still confounded by this side-
effect of something I'm not aware of.

From this below, I see that a colon (:) seems to somehow quote what
follows. But I'm really not sure about this. I suppose I'll have to

Re: Need more eyes on two small Qi-YACC parsers

dr.mtar...@ukonline.co.uk (Mark Tarver) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 23:16:15 UT

Type ::= to top level and reflect.

Re: Need more eyes on two small Qi-YACC parsers

dr.mtar...@ukonline.co.uk (Mark Tarver) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:21:38 UT

Since := is part of Qi-yacc syntax; push it into the semantics.

(defcc <foo>
-*- := (if (= -*- ::=) -*- #\Escape);)

Mark

Re: Need more eyes on two small Qi-YACC parsers

danieljom...@gmail.com (Daniel Jomphe) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 18:08:10 UT

Thanks. Second, I want something like this to be recognised:

(defcc <foo>
::=;)
(compile <foo> [::=])
fail!

I think this clashes with Qi-YACC's semantic action's reserved symbol
":=".

I've tried different strategies but haven't been successful in
accepting ::= as valid (see the start of this thread for my trials).

Re: Need more eyes on two small Qi-YACC parsers

dr.mtar...@ukonline.co.uk (Mark Tarver) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:59:24 UT

That's about right.

Mark

Re: Need more eyes on two small Qi-YACC parsers

danieljom...@gmail.com (Daniel Jomphe) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:53:22 UT

Thanks for the answer to my question 1. Have you seen my question 2?

=== 1 ===

So you're telling me that <rule> doesn't send the head of the stuff to
be parsed to <sn>, and the rest of it to <sym>?

(defcc <rule>
<sn> <sym>;)

I thought that the space between <sn> and <sym> in <rule> told the

Re: Need more eyes on two small Qi-YACC parsers

dr.mtar...@ukonline.co.uk (Mark Tarver) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 12:42:07 UT

OK, Dan, while I'm waiting for my buddy to turn up.

Well, in your example; the input is

[[1] symbol]

and the head is [1] and not 1. So Qi-Yacc is doing right.

OK; try changing your program to:

(defcc <rule>
[<sn>] <sym>;)

(defcc <sym>
symbol;)

(defcc <sn>
-*- := (if (number? -*-)

Re: Productivity vs Mod Queues

dr.mtar...@ukonline.co.uk (Mark Tarver) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 12:26:37 UT

Sorry Dan; I didn't read your message closely enough and posted it as
approved because it was submitted to qilang. I should have noticed
your opening sentence but was reading in a hurry i.e. saw it's not
spam, content seemed ok, so approve. Probably you needed to send this
as a private email.

Re: Productivity vs Mod Queues

emekami...@gmail.com (Emeka) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 07:23:42 UT

Mark Tarver,

What Rich Hackey does is to moderate/delay posts from new members in order
to prevent spams and he also blocks posts from trolls.

Regards,
Emeka

Re: Productivity vs Mod Queues

dr.mtar...@ukonline.co.uk (Mark Tarver) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 05:47:46 UT

Right; this is why I unmodded in the first place; so people could get
instant response. ** Also I took a break for 24 hours from all this
having written my epistle, so in this case your post took a bit more
time.** I'm generally a lot faster.

However I will guarantee that your post will appear within 24 hours

Productivity vs Mod Queues

danieljom...@gmail.com (Daniel Jomphe) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 01:02:34 UT

This message is for the moderator, not for Qilang. So I suggest you
delete it after you've read it.

I find it very counter-productive that I have to wait hours (or days?)
before my questions may even be modded-published to the list. And
then, I shall wait hours (or days?) before any answer reaches me. In

Need more eyes on two small Qi-YACC parsers

danieljom...@gmail.com (Daniel Jomphe) — Tue, 09 Sep 2009 19:16:49 UT

=== 1 ===
What's wrong with my parser?

(defcc <rule>
<sn> <sym>;)

(defcc <sym>
symbol;)

(defcc <sn>
-*- := (if (number? -*-)
[-*-]
(error "~A is not a number" -*-)))

(compile <rule> [[1] symbol])
error: [1] is not a number

Isn't -*- supposed to be the head of [1], thus 1? And, consequently:

Qi + slime + emacs = love

jrw...@gmail.com (jrwats) — Tue, 09 Sep 2009 16:19:26 UT

I finally got slime + emacs working for Qi. If you're not familiar
with slime it eases common lisp development a lot IMHO.

with SBCL running I ran the following:
(require 'swank)
(load "install.lsp")

now the Qi.core has swank loaded and ready to go. In my ~/.emacs I
made:

(defun qi-init-cmd (port-filename coding-system)

Re: restoring direction to qilang

danieljom...@gmail.com (Daniel Jomphe) — Tue, 09 Sep 2009 15:55:47 UT

I'm very pleased with this direction you're taking, Mark. That said, I
wish you the best out of your sabbatical in India. :)

restoring direction to qilang

dr.mtar...@ukonline.co.uk (Mark Tarver) — Tue, 09 Sep 2009 12:58:21 UT

This is a quite important message and concerns the future of qilang,
Qi, Shen and a lot of what has been going on in the last two weeks.
It was going to be a post; but was too long. You can read what I have
to say here. It is about restoring the direction of this group and
Lambda Associates.

Re: Qi question on StackOverflow

danieljom...@gmail.com (Daniel Jomphe) — Sat, 09 Sep 2009 18:47:10 UT

Looks like there's really no reason why my idea would be bad. Plus I
get to learn and to answer one of my needs.

You raise one fact: I definitely took that mailing list's post out of
context re: my own purposes. Funny how I didn't *at all* remark the
error of my ways yesterday. :) You're right, it should be mostly a no-

Re: Qi question on StackOverflow

n2...@yahoo.com (n2kra) — Sat, 09 Sep 2009 18:18:52 UT

StackOverflow> uhg, another site to logon to.

my only experience was
Inform -> HTML (I chose CL
before I knew of Qi)

With no yacc (lexer) experience, I had a vague idea *
I was going to be writing a Recursive Decent Parser.

SO> using a CFG is a bad idea...

...that was parsing XML in C?

Q&A questions on StackOverflow

danieljom...@gmail.com (Daniel Jomphe) — Sat, 09 Sep 2009 18:02:21 UT

Thanks Stefan for your answer on StackOverflow ("SO" thereafter).

Thinking of it, I'm not sure it was very nice of me to ask a question
there and, in some way, require that if you answer it, you do it
there. Sorry for that; I didn't explain why I think it's better for
Qi's/Shen's future, nor did I mention I didn't mind if you prefer to

Qi question on StackOverflow

danieljom...@gmail.com (Daniel Jomphe) — Fri, 09 Sep 2009 19:34:45 UT

I've just asked my first Qi programming question on StackOverflow. I
don't see why such kind of questions should be answered on any mailing
list when there's much better services out there for Q&A purposes.
Although my question is more Qi-YACC-related than Qi-related, it's
still the first question tagged "Qi" on the site.

lisp-form.qi

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 20:46:12 UT

I added the code for translating to clojure in the repo in the file
lisp-form.qi

It's in a mess, just wanted to show that I have done some serious work
in trying to translate to
clojure. I don't like the state of it so in the end It needs to be
rewritten, also the implications of
the unified code in core.qi. and associated files has not yielded

Re: Qilang as a discussion forum

dr.mtar...@ukonline.co.uk (Mark Tarver) — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 09:54:50 UT

Good.

Re: core.qi

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Tue, 09 Sep 2009 20:48:42 UT

Yep,

This is a very nice point, let's contemplate it.

/Stefan

On 1 Sep, 16:14, Anton Tayanovskyy <anton.tayanovs...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Re: open space: discussion on Qi, Shen, licensing and open source

stefan.ta...@spray.se (snorgers) — Tue, 09 Sep 2009 20:32:15 UT

Mark has ended the discussion, but here is my interpretation of the
discussion

Here is what's happend.

I use the logic, What I write I try to put as BSD/MIT.
I'm using a stomach interpretation of what I consider unique work by
me.

So, I noted that combining everything in a define construction is a