> And a warm thanks from me for pursuing and widening the debate around
> the meaning and significance of 'civil society', particularly in view
> of your experience of the Eastern European situation. I'll wait a
> little before gathering my thoughts into a response. Thanks for the
> stimulus.

> Tony Taylor

> On 22 Apr, 15:42, penny <i...@penandy.co.uk> wrote:

> > welcome christine, good to have this perspective because it widens our
> > picture beyond service provision and sector interests, into society,
> > power, accountability and alternative models for how we want to live
> > together. now the trick is to find ways in which we can be a NOT so
> > civil society - politeness doesn't seem to be getting us very far. but
> > how do we hold the tension between challenge and dissent, and the glue
> > we need to keep us together so we have some semblance of a society?
> > perhaps you might invite friends and contacts outside UK to join us in
> > our discussions, so we can learn from other situations.

> > On 22 Apr, 13:15, bobw <r...@gumpol.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > > Bob Widdowson forwarded the post from Tony Taylor to me and I'm very
> > > interested in taking part in this debate.  I have worked extensively
> > > in the
> > > transition states of central and eastern Europe, where we commonly use
> > > the
> > > term "Civil society" as encompassing more than our designation of
> > > charities
> > > and voluntary organisations.  Civil society also includes trades
> > > unions,
> > > political parties, religious organisations etc - in fact all the types
> > > of
> > > activities and organisations through which people take part in
> > > associational
> > > activity, whether formal or informal. It also, by definition, covers
> > > the
> > > individual citizen.   The relationship between the state and civil
> > > society
> > > should be (note the "should be") the one where the institutions of the
> > > state
> > > are accountable to the citizen, are transparent in their operations.
> > > We
> > > elect our representatives to keep a check on the appointed
> > > institutional
> > > structures (civil service etc) - but clearly here in the UK, one of
> > > the
> > > failures is the full accountability of our government to our elected
> > > representatives.  So where civil society comes in is by holding to
> > > account
> > > elected representatives, and through its organisations, mobilising
> > > citizens
> > > to demand that accountability.  What civil society organisations in
> > > the
> > > transition countries are currently concerned about is how they can
> > > continue
> > > their advocacy/lobbying roles, which in some places are being
> > > restricted
> > > (just like here - often through lack of resources/moves towards the
> > > contract
> > > culture restricting the scope of their activities etc).  The dynamics
> > > are of
> > > course more complex than the simplistic overview I've given here, but
> > > where
> > > we need the discussions in the UK is precisely around these issues
> > > (which we
> > > discuss endlessly in countries like Ukraine) - who oversees those who
> > > are
> > > appointed (whether through elections or in other ways) to ensure that
> > > there
> > > is open, transparent and accountable decision-making where these
> > > decisions
> > > are being made for public interest/benefit.   I start to feel that our
> > > current government would take at face value the thoughts expressed in
> > > a
> > > Brecht poem about the 1953 events in East Germany - that the
> > > government
> > > would like to elect a new people.  We have to make sure that
> > > governments, of
> > > whatever hue, in a so-called democratic state, are constantly aware of
> > > the
> > > pressures that come from civil society.  Of course, the problem is
> > > that we
> > > may not always like the views that are expressed by those we disagree
> > > with -
> > > this is one of the issues that arises when we look at mechanisms which
> > > are
> > > in the sphere of "participative democracy" - town and community
> > > meetings,
> > > budget hearings, and a range of other technologies which enable the
> > > "civic"
> > > (civil society) voice to be heard.   Globalisation makes the issue
> > > more
> > > complex again, but there is a real common cause to be made across the
> > > world,
> > > where many organisations and individuals are confronting the same
> > > issues,
> > > particularly where a connection has been made between democracy and
> > > the free
> > > market.  One of our problems is that we are following a particular
> > > model -
> > > the Anglo-American model - and there are alternatives.  We need to be
> > > rethinking all of these issues - the "end of ideology" must be
> > > challenged.
> > > Concepts of civil society can be called in aid to help us break down
> > > the
> > > barriers to thinking that our current "governments" have been very
> > > happy to
> > > erect, as this thinking is a challenge to the currently accepted
> > > orthodoxies.

> > > Christine Forrester