| |
humanities.philosophy.objectivism |
>1. It wasn't a misrepresentation precisely because I warned the reader Obviously, I was qualifying my statement, not portraying the whole In any event, the relevant issue is not whether all of these pre-Smithians Strictly speaking, these propositions don't require that all >1. The man who first assembled economics, although there were precursors. >I don't think the mercantilists were hacks. I think Cantillon either made >>I take it that so far you have not read Rothbard's book yourself and >1. I have only skimmed Cantillon, but I know Smith quite well. Assuming Even worse, you are so eager to seize upon what you found in Cantillon to "Economics was quite prominent in France and even in Scotland long In my post of May 8th, I listed six of Cantillon's theoretical >Your motives aren't at issue. What I am implying is that you ought not to It should be noted also that my purpose in introducing Rothbard's >I think Jimbo was wrong, and said so. But he would have been right if I The notion that arguments must have full citations is more In an informal group discussion, this procedure isn't necessary. There are far more grounds for expecting a regular on h.p.o. to have Also, while secondary sources do create the potential for Indeed, one could hedge one's writing with all sorts of skeptical >A. Revise your opinions of this exchange and ...
>>Second of all, does one misrepresentation (assuming that is what it is)
>>justify another? If by your own admission you are making Cantillon sound
>>worse than he really is, then it appears that you are engaging in an
>>extended rhetorical diversion which doesn't address the main question of
>>whether or not the French invented economics, brought it to prominence, and
>>used it to support laissez-faire policy prescriptions before Smith.
>that I was selecting my quotes. Part of my point was to demonstrate what
>could be done by that technique.
so I think the lesson was lost on those of us who don't buy into your
"hatchet job" thesis as a matter of faith.
>policy prescriptions before Smith.
I made about Cantillon was that he founded economics as a separate
discipline, not that he was the original champion of laissez-faire. In my
reply of May 7th, I specifically said that *some* of the French, and not
all of the French, had integrated their views into a defense of
laissez-faire.
group as being pro-laissez-faire. It appears that you are taking my
generalizations about pre-Smithians and taking those statements to
apply indiscriminately to Cantillon, the Physiocrats, and Turgot.
This is a misunderstanding of what I am saying.
are free-traders in their policy orientation, but whether laissez-faire was
advocated and defended on economic grounds prior to Smith; which relies on
the propositions that (1) economics was founded prior to Smith, (2)
economics rose to prominence in the public policy arena before Smith, and
(3) laissez-faire was advocated by pre-Smithian economists.
pre-Smithian economists contributed equally to founding economics,
popularizing economics, and using economics to support laissez-faire.
Each of them had a more delimited, dare I say specialized role.
>discusses the physiocrats at some length, and politely. Near the beginning
>of the lecture notes I provided my students for the course in History of
>Thought I have been teaching this quarter, I wrote (about Smith):
with Jimbo and don't know anything about the history of economic
thought. I haven't denied that Smith "assembled" economics in one
work before anyone else, but the sheer length of the _Wealth of
Nations_ doesn't have a great deal of bearing on the issues I have
been trying to raise with respect to Cantillon. One can write a
shorter work that identifies a new field of study, defines its
methodology, and states some of the basic theories; and rightly be
called the founder of the field.
>>as he really is, do you think he was just another mercantilist hack,
>>or do you think he made serious contributions to founding economics
>>as a distinct intellectual discipline?
>a serious contribution to economics, or is reflecting the ideas of others
>who did. That doesn't surprise me, and is certainly not original with
>Rothbard. Long before our exchange, Cantillon was one of the people I had
>a mental note to read when I got around to it.
with Rothbard, nor does Rothbard make such a claim.
>>as a "hatchet job" until you can conclusively show that Rothbard
>>intentionally got it wrong.
>>that you have skimmed exactly one of the original sources relating to
>>the early French economists he cites. If this is the case, then I
>>rather doubt that you are in a position to strongly challenge
>>Rothbard's thesis yet, let alone demonstrate that his errors were
>>dishonest.
>you have accurately represented Rothbard, his remarks on Smith are a
>hatchet job. That is consistent with what I know of Rothbard from other
>work, and I cannot see any good reason why you would have misrepresented
>him in such a way.
me for making confident statements based upon a secondary source, yet you
strongly attacked Rothbard based not on your own reading of him, but
rather on my presentation of his views. Has it occurred to you that
even if my summary of Rothbard's thesis is accurate, it is too brief
to contain all the evidence, arguments, and qualifications to the
arguments he brings forward? How could you be so confident that you
weren't going to be persuaded by something Rothbard wrote without
having read it?
attack Rothbard that you haven't been paying attention to all of the
qualifications that I did include. You'll note my previous mention
of how I excluded Cantillon from the list of single-taxers, and my
argument above about how I qualified the attribution of laissez-faire
views to this group.
>Cantillon was a free trader--which is inconsistent with the clear words of
>the Essai, as I have pointed out.
before Kant or Smith. While the usual mythology is that Smith
and Ricardo founded modern economics, that honor really belongs to
Richard Cantillon. His treatise written sometime around 1730,
_Essai sur la nature du commerce en general_, is the first work to
demarcate the field of economics and give a systematic treatment of
the theory."
accomplishments (one qualified), and you came up with a quote suggesting
that another one should be qualified. After that, you came up with the
charge that I was mistakenly portraying Cantillon as a free-trader.
However, a quick look at these earlier posts on DejaNews will confirm that
I wasn't saying that at all.
>>sure if I really want to continue this sort of discussion with you. What
>>you are suggesting by posing such questions is the insinuation that I
>>am impervious to whatever evidence you present and that my reliance
>>on Rothbard as a secondary source somehow calls my motives into
>>question. Frankly, I find that pretty insulting.
>make confident assertions based solely on a secondary source--especially a
>secondary source by someone who quite obviously has an axe to grind.
evidence and to critically examine what Rothbard says, and making
such queries the rhetorical highlight of your replies. You act as if
I'm a closed-minded authoritarian simply because I take Rothbard
seriously, which is a pretty insulting way to express your
disagreements as far as I'm concerned.
analysis wasn't to champion Murray's entire world-view. In fact, of
all of Rothbard's works, the particular volume I cited has the most
shortcomings from my own vantage point. However, seeing that you and
Jimbo were perpetuating the Smith-as-founder myth in your discussion
of Kant's alleged influence, I thought it was necessary to point out
the existence of a prominent laissez-faire movement that preceded
Kant and Smith.
>something along the lines of "X says Rand says Y. Y is wrong. Will someone
>confirm that Rand really said Y. If she did, isn't that a reason to
>question her judgement?" Jimbo called me to task for irresponsibly
>suggesting Rand believed something without checking her own words.
>had stated, as a fact, "Rand held view Y." He would have been even more
>right if I had stated it, and omitted to mention that X, who was my sole
>source for the assertion, made it in the process of attacking Rand. That
>is what you did--with Smith substituted for Rand, and Rothbard as X.
mistaken, you have every opportunity to question what my sources are, which
is indeed what happened. My responsibility then is to identify what my
sources are, which is what I did in response. I don't see a problem with
that.
appropriate to a one-way channel of communication (such as
peer-reviewed academic papers) because of the lack of any interactive
give-and-take between the author and most of his audience. In the
typical one-way academic modes of communication, the author has to
anticipate all likely requests for factual sources in advance and
satisfy those anticipated requests in the original article, book,
etc., in order to give the audience an opportunity to verify the
facts for themselves.
In a Usenet format, requests for clarification, elaboration,
or support of one's argument can be done on demand, so it is
far more efficient to leave out references to such things until they
are requested. Moreover, there is no presumption that leaving out
such references means that one is basing their analysis exclusively
on primary sources. When one is talking about a body of literature
as vast as the writings of the pre-Smithians and of Smith himself, it
is entirely reasonable to assume that one might be employing
secondary sources in his analysis.
read Rand (which I believe was the substance of Jimbo's complaint)
than there is to have read the whole corpus of 18th Century
economics, a task which even few professional economists have
bothered to undertake.
misrepresentation, they can also recreate an intellectual context for
the reader that otherwise might not be fully appreciated just from
reading a primary source in isolation. If you think that the h.p.o.
audience needs to be coddled by warning them of every instance where
one is relying on a secondary source, one could argue with equal
justice that one ought to warn h.p.o. of every instance where one is
using a primary source without understanding the full intellectual
context and historical circumstances of the author when he or she
wrote it.
reservations and disclaimers of this kind. But what end is served by
doing so? If my counterparts in a discussion are so weak-minded that
they aren't alert to the possibility of misrepresentations,
contextual changes in meaning, etc. or aren't able or willing to
track down possible instances of these problems, their criticisms are
not going to be worth much to me anyhow.
>asserting (second hand from Rothbard) and your judgement in asserting it
>as fact without making any effort to check it first.
saying and instead have been attacking a straw man (the Cantillon
free-trader) while poisoning the well against Rothbard. I think it
has become perfectly clear who really has an axe to grind here.
>reading Smith and Cantillon (and, hopefully, Turgot), you conclude that
>the Rothbard book was a hatchet job, will you
>B. Revise your opinion of Rothbard?
opinions. First, they will indeed be revised in light of whatever
evidence I come across. Second, the evidence of the thread itself
has already prompted me to revise my opinions about you, and now I am
quite certain that I do not want to continue this sort of discussion
with you. Life is too short and too wonderful to be wasted on
malicious people who are just looking for a chance to
gratuitously abuse the honor of others.
--
Vincent Cook <xyzepicu...@xyzcreative.net> Remove the xyz's
Epicurus & Epicurean Philosophy Page - http://www.creative.net/~epicurus/
PGP Key - http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu/pks-commands.html
Key fingerprint = 6C AC 39 33 4C F1 72 13 38 89 45 B2 34 D0 69 27
.