In article <3dd6c6c84e.zen44...@zen.co.uk>, Simon Smith
<simon_smith_n...@zen.co.uk> wrote: > But I said that almost seven years ago in mid-2000, and RISC OS is in no > more or less trouble now than it was then. As I recall the Phoebe crisis > was back then, and then there was Acorn disappearing entirely, and so on > . . . I suspect you (and I, and others) may be worrying needlessly. An > OS that is still 'dying' seven years after I (and many others) said it > was dying can't really be as sick as all that. Were I to make another > similar post today, I'd give it another five years just as I did in > 2000. and once again I'd be absolutely delighted to come back and have > to eat my words sometime around 2015.
It's a tendency with kit that has had any measure of popularity that it tends to hang on long after its day is done. Just look at the number of times that somebody has said that COBOL is dead since the 60's, or how long it took to kill off systems like the PDP11 or AS400. Or the 8-bit BBC Micro, for that matter! If, indeed, you could say that any of the above are actually dead.
-- //\ // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk> // \// "Word to the wise guy; be nice or be dog food!"
> It was also refreshing to be able to use a WIKI that works under RISC OS > (Netsurf), although some of the copy / paste behaviour was a little strange > and I had to leave plenty of room either side when pasting to make sure it > didn't mess with the previous material.
I think that's a NetSurf issue, not a Wiki one; I've encountered it in forms elsewhere.
-- Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
The best way to keep your friends is not to give them away.
> So you may not be able to see a use for a software solution, I can.
Well, I agree with you when you take web cam images into consideration - but that's a different use to VoIP!
>> By definition, VoIP cannot deal with anything other than voice!
> Then in the long term it will die.
Maybe, but not until after normal telephone calls die, which I suspect will be a very long time yet!
>> Skype is a closed protocol, so it can't be developed by anyone but >> Skype themselves.
> I'm not bothered as long as it works for what I want to do.
Yes, I agree that such a distinction doesn't really impinge on a users point of view. But my point is that it is impossible for anyone to create Skype software for any system, let alone RISC OS, other than Skype themselves. So it's not an issue that any RISC OS developer can possibly solve.
>>We already have an MSN client for RISC OS - this >> would be the most sensible option to develop for web cam use, but >> that's different to VoIP!
> Can you see it happening?
Well, actually I can. The MSN client for RISC OS is being actively developed. I guess it is a case of making a webcam facility a top priority for them - in other words, a lot of demand from users - then throwing money at the problem. If RComp knew there was enough demand for them to make money with this upgrade, I'm sure they would do it.
>> As for 'cluttering the desk top with electronic gizmos', my VoIP >> adaptor is nobbut a large bulge in the wire - not what I would call >> 'clutter'!
> It also cost you twenty quid. The Skype software is free.
My guess is that Skype software is free now because they want to build a large userbase. When everyone is 'hooked' I suspect they will charge for using the service. As no-one else can use their protocols, they will have a captive market. So I would suggest using it whilst it is free, but be prepared to move to another system when they start charging! Maybe I'm wrong (I often am!). But either way, Skype will never be interested in writing a client for RISC OS, and no-one else is able to.
> Yes and no. There is a snag. My grandson's mum has a Mac. The MSN > client for that doesn't appear to do camera either which is why we > went for Skype.
We're drifting a bit off a RISC OS topic here, but there are MSN clients for MacOS which do make use of a webcam - Microsoft's own version doesn't, but try aMSN, which is the one I use on the Mac. Maybe that could even be ported to RISC OS, as I think it is open-source?
Jeremy Brayshaw <jer...@brayshaw.org.uk> wrote: > >>We already have an MSN client for RISC OS - this > >> would be the most sensible option to develop for web cam use, but > >> that's different to VoIP!
> > Can you see it happening?
> Well, actually I can. The MSN client for RISC OS is being actively > developed. I guess it is a case of making a webcam facility a top > priority for them - in other words, a lot of demand from users - then > throwing money at the problem. If RComp knew there was enough demand > for them to make money with this upgrade, I'm sure they would do it.
Surely first you have to ensure connectivity of web cams which are invariably USB? And, does RISC OS have the processing power to provide video at a reasonable frame rate?
> >> As for 'cluttering the desk top with electronic gizmos', my VoIP > >> adaptor is nobbut a large bulge in the wire - not what I would call > >> 'clutter'!
> > It also cost you twenty quid. The Skype software is free.
> My guess is that Skype software is free now because they want to build > a large userbase. When everyone is 'hooked' I suspect they will charge > for using the service. As no-one else can use their protocols, they > will have a captive market. So I would suggest using it whilst it is > free, but be prepared to move to another system when they start > charging! Maybe I'm wrong (I often am!). But either way, Skype will > never be interested in writing a client for RISC OS, and no-one else > is able to.
Skype is free when used computer to computer. Where they make their money is their paid for telephone numbers and the ability to make paid telephone calls to geographic telephone numbers.
I use VoIP directly via the router for most of my outgoing telephone calls as it's much cheaper thatn BT. I also use Skype for talking to the family abroad via video and the desk speakers and microphone. Both my wife and myself can chat at the same time to children/grandchildren at the other end and see them at the same time - full screen.
>> Thanks for pointing that one out. I've now done my bit and added the >> entries which were previously only available from my web site.
> Thanks. Now the pages have a bit more content I've linked them in from > http://www.riscos.info/ so they should be a bit more visible now.
> Theo
I've had my say and don't particularly want to pick up on specific points of detail. But a couple of additonal comments.
It has been an interesting discussion, but very much on a general level. I was hoping to get a bit more down and dirty: I suppose what I was saying at its crudest was, are there any RO developers out there for hire and interested in doing some of the things users most want (most notably a new build of FF2 with additional functionality!) ... Perhaps not any more - or perhaps they don't believe it is possible put together a workable project with user support.
But picking up from what Theo has said about using the Wiki - is it possible to extend that to development, so that for instance developers could put up what their current projects are and what they might be interested in ... and users could (hopefully sensibly) register their willingness to support development in financial or other terms. Maybe more communication via a central clearing house like that could foster some worthwhile collaborations and help speed up some developments.
Steven Pampling <steve.pampl...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote: > In article <gemini.jfi9a7005qetj0104....@magray.freeserve.co.uk>, > Ray Dawson <r...@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: > > And, does RISC OS have the processing power to provide > > video at a reasonable frame rate?
Nigel Willmott <nwillm...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > But picking up from what Theo has said about using the Wiki - is it > possible to extend that to development, so that for instance > developers could put up what their current projects are and what they > might be interested in ... and users could (hopefully sensibly) > register their willingness to support development in financial or > other terms. Maybe more communication via a central clearing house > like that could foster some worthwhile collaborations and help speed > up some developments.
Yes, definitely. There's already a wiki page regarding projects wanting developers: http://www.riscos.info/index.php/Developer_help_wanted If other people feel they've got something they can contribute, by all means create a page, let's call it 'Help offered' with details.
<theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote: > Nigel Willmott <nwillm...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > > But picking up from what Theo has said about using the Wiki - is it > > possible to extend that to development, so that for instance > > developers could put up what their current projects are and what they > > might be interested in ... and users could (hopefully sensibly) > > register their willingness to support development in financial or > > other terms. Maybe more communication via a central clearing house > > like that could foster some worthwhile collaborations and help speed > > up some developments. > Yes, definitely. There's already a wiki page regarding projects wanting > developers: http://www.riscos.info/index.php/Developer_help_wanted If > other people feel they've got something they can contribute, by all > means create a page, let's call it 'Help offered' with details. > Here we go, I've just created something: > http://www.riscos.info/index.php/Help_offered So you can add yourself to > that.
This is a useful thing to have done, Theo. Hopefully it will lead on to more.
Two things come to mind.
There is a need to get it more widely known than just on the rather obscure wiki. A link is needed from all the other RO info sites - hopefully they will pick it up. Ditto the remaining RO publications - I know John Cartmell reads here so that's Quercus covered. Paul Vigay can pass it on to RISC OS Now. What about Archive?
Then there is what sort of help is really needed. For non-developers ( or me at least) it is hard to guess what useful help could be given. Cash is obvious, probably, but then what? Is there anybody who could put together some suggestions of what might really be helpful?
> We're drifting a bit off a RISC OS topic here, but there are MSN > clients for MacOS which do make use of a webcam - Microsoft's own > version doesn't, but try aMSN, which is the one I use on the Mac. > Maybe that could even be ported to RISC OS, as I think it is > open-source?
There are actually two open-source MSN clients for the Mac which support webcams for audio and video -- aMSN and Mercury Messenger. Predictably, since they are multi-platform affairs, they are fairly horrible. Better than nothing, but fairly horrible. I generally try and encourage people to use AIM, so I can just use iChat. Skype is also surprisingly pleasant to use on a Mac.
aMSN is written in Tcl/Tk and Mercury in Java: neither tremendously helpful from a RISC OS perspective, I think.
As someone else said, you have to worry about getting USB webcams to work too. Even on Macs, this was rather non-trivial until last week, when Apple included support in OS X for UVC webcams (before that, you had to install additional third-party drivers and software).
b.
-- <b...@bas.me.uk> <URL:http://bas.me.uk/> `Finally, remember to include Linux users in your prayers tonight. As individuals we may not be able to change people's minds, but the Bible teaches that God can make any sinner repent.' -- ShelleyTheRepublican.com
> There is a need to get it more widely known than just on the rather obscure > wiki. A link is needed from all the other RO info sites - hopefully they > will pick it up. Ditto the remaining RO publications - I know John > Cartmell reads here so that's Qercus covered.
Just mentioning it in one issue of Qercus is insufficient. Over the next few issues we will be dealing with the question with one or two articles around the subject. If anyone wants to add ideas to what we have already planned then please feel free to contribute - anything from a "don't forget to mention" up to a whole article or even (as I've wanted for some time) someone to edit a regular series that includes user requests for applications and feedback from developers about what is possible.
-- John Cartmell - editor AT qercus.com www.qercus.comwww.acornuser.com Qercus/Acorn User: reporting on computers & computing since 1982 Qercus/Acorn User, 30 Finnybank Rd Sale M33 6LR == 0845 006 8822
