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Nigel Willmott  
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 More options 24 Mar 2007, 19:20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Nigel Willmott <nwillm...@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:20:01 GMT
Local: Sat 24 Mar 2007 19:20
Subject: Future of Risc OS

The RO situation once again looks bleak. I haven't been around for
most of the last 10 days, but on re-entering the RO universe, I find
that one of its last real-world users is jumping ship and its only
serious developer of major new applications is taking time out.

FF2 keep me on board when I was considering quitting before Xmas, but
now that it is to remain a work in progress, without full
functionality being added (bookmarking, save page etc), it looks as if
once again I'll have to consider selling the Iyonix on eBay and buying
a cheaper and more capable machine at PC World with the proceeds.

So one last effort. It seems that what we lack is mechanism to link
users (ie non-programmers) who want to support continued development
with developers who might want to do it (given the market doesn't do
it).

I have no obvious answer, but in the spirit of "think not what Risc OS
can do for you, but what you can do for Risc OS", here's what I am
willing to do to support continued development:

1)  Fund small but significant developments by donation (up to a
couple of hundred quid, say), if they provide me with useful
additional functionality - along with other users if more, but not
massively more, costly.

2)  Underwrite more significant work (with others) so it takes some of
the risk off developers on larger projects.

3)   Invest in a more conventional commercial fashion on larger
developments, subject to a reasonable business model.

4)   Input whatever I can to projects in terms of user requirements,
testing, documentation, promotion and support.

I have no time, inclination (or talent) to get involved in programming
per se.

Naturally I'm interested in supporting things which are useful to me
(though I'm willing to support other applications important to the
platform but not much use to me - eg Artworks).

They must also work on the Iyonix, because that's what I use, but most
applications software works or can be made to work across hardware
platforms.

Here's what I would be interested in supporting, in descending level
of importance. I presume others would be similarly interested, if with
different priorities.

1)  Adding the missing functionality to FF2 (bookmarking, save page,
cut and save text, printing directly or indirectly, at a minimum -
being able to display a £ sign would be nice too and being able to
recognise a Shoutcast file and stream it).

2)   Work on plug-ins, particularly a Realplayer using the freely
available sources at https://helixcommunity.org/   (Realplayer in UK
tell me this is the way to develop a player on a minority platform).

3)    Continued development of Arm (particularly Iyonix) Linux - one
way of providing missing applications on the same machine. (Porting
would be better but ...)

4)   A driver for an internal modem in the Iyonix - not bothered what
the modem is, but desk space and sockets are at a premium here.

5)   An updated PIM ... Thunderbird looks (looked?) interesting, but
interfacing/integrating Messenger and Organizer would be an option
too.

6)    A multi-media front end that integrates the capabilities we
already have - Stream (internet radio), Amplayer, Music Man, ROTunes,  
spc (podcasting), Digital CD, DVD-Burn are all there, but using them
(Music Man excepted) is not always intuitive or user-friendly,
particularly when transferring from one medium to another.

7)    Voip.

8)     Webcam application.

How to get from A to B ...  well obviously it depends on people being
willing to sign up either to do the work or support it. (A private
email if this is too public?). Perhaps then an email group or a
website to float project proposals - either developers seeking backers
or users wanting particular applications.

I know each one involves major problems, but if, in the spirit of
Netsurf, we can form small teams of collaborators (developers and
supporters), maybe we can progress on at least some of them.

Worth a try ...

Nigel

(Off to watch the football now - another case of hope over
experience!)


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Jeremy Brayshaw  
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 More options 24 Mar 2007, 20:05
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Jeremy Brayshaw <jer...@brayshaw.org.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:05:26 GMT
Local: Sat 24 Mar 2007 20:05
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS

Nigel Willmott wrote:

<snip>

> Here's what I would be interested in supporting

<snip>

> 7)    Voip.

This one item I think would be a complete waste of time. To use VoIP
on any computer requires the said computer to remain on all the time -
otherwise calls cannot be made or received. Instead, and for less than
twenty quid, you can get a dedicated VoIP telephone adaptor, where you
just plug in any normal phone and an ethernet wire. Always on, always
available and much simpler to use! If you're about to replace/upgrade
your ADSL Modem anyway, then get one with VoIP capability. It gives
you the same facility (i.e. an 'always on' actual telephone) and will
also give the VoIP line priority over the connection's bandwidth.

I can't see any advantage whatever for having a software phone on any
computer, be it Windows, RISC OS or anything else!

Jeremy.

--
Jeremy Brayshaw     <><


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Simon Smith  
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 More options 24 Mar 2007, 21:07
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Simon Smith <simon_smith_n...@zen.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:07:12 GMT
Local: Sat 24 Mar 2007 21:07
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In message <81d7b8c84e.Ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>
          Nigel Willmott <nwillm...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> The RO situation once again looks bleak. I haven't been around for
> most of the last 10 days, but on re-entering the RO universe, I find
> that one of its last real-world users is jumping ship and its only
> serious developer of major new applications is taking time out.

Yes, that's just what I said here:

http://www.dunx.org/cgi-bin/forum?forum=game00009&bookmark=20000509:0...

(link should all be on one line)

But I said that almost seven years ago in mid-2000, and RISC OS is in no
more or less trouble now than it was then. As I recall the Phoebe crisis
was back then, and then there was Acorn disappearing entirely, and so
on . . . I suspect you (and I, and others) may be worrying needlessly. An OS
that is still 'dying' seven years after I (and many others) said it was
dying can't really be as sick as all that. Were I to make another similar
post today, I'd give it another five years just as I did in 2000. and once
again I'd be absolutely delighted to come back and have to eat my words
sometime around 2015.

RISC OS /is/ only - well mostly - a minority or hobbyist OS, but I really
don't think any the less of it for that. I say, keep your expectations
realistic, contribute where you can, and enjoy using the OS as long as it's
available. That's all I'm doing. And given that I don't make unreasonable
demands of it, its reliability, consistency, ease of use etc. have repaid me
manyfold. What more can one ask?

<snip suggestions and wish list>

--
Simon Smith

When emailing me, please use my preferred email address, which is on my web
site at http://www.simon-smith.org


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Rob Kendrick  
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 More options 24 Mar 2007, 20:49
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Rob Kendrick <n...@rjek.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:49:00 +0000
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:05:26 +0000, Jeremy Brayshaw wrote:
> Nigel Willmott wrote:

>> 7)    Voip.

> This one item I think would be a complete waste of time. To use VoIP
> on any computer requires the said computer to remain on all the time

<snip>

> I can't see any advantage whatever for having a software phone on any
> computer, be it Windows, RISC OS or anything else!

My computer *is* on all the time.  Why should I clutter my desk with
another electronic gizmo?

B.


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Doug Webb  
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 More options 24 Mar 2007, 22:13
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Doug Webb <doug.j.w...@btinternet.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:13:40 GMT
Local: Sat 24 Mar 2007 22:13
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In message <81d7b8c84e.Ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>
          Nigel Willmott <nwillm...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> So one last effort. It seems that what we lack is mechanism to link
> users (ie non-programmers) who want to support continued development
> with developers who might want to do it (given the market doesn't do
> it).

[snip]

Nigel,

You may wish to contact Graham Shaw, of RISC Packaging fame who may
give you some interesting information.

I totally agree with what you say in that what is required is a sort
of "Select" for Apps only with a  more of an input from the users in
what should be done and some sort of guiding hand(s) to get
development going and completed.

There are some of us in the MUG user group who might also be
interested in seeing what we could do.

Doug

--
Using a Iyonix PC and RISC OS 5.13, the thinking persons alternative
operating system to Microsoft Windows.


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Alan Calder  
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 More options 24 Mar 2007, 22:27
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Alan Calder <alan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:27:02 +0000 (GMT)
Local: Sat 24 Mar 2007 22:27
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In article <11ecccc84e.dougjw...@btopenworld.com>,
   Doug Webb <doug.j.w...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> In message <81d7b8c84e.Ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>           Nigel Willmott <nwillm...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> [snip]

> > So one last effort. It seems that what we lack is mechanism to link
> > users (ie non-programmers) who want to support continued development
> > with developers who might want to do it (given the market doesn't do
> > it).
> [snip]
> Nigel,
> You may wish to contact Graham Shaw, of RISC Packaging fame who may
> give you some interesting information.

And if Nigel does perhaps he could let us all know what Graham has to say
rather than us all bombarding him - I'm sure many would be interested.

Cheers

Alan

[Snip]

--
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.


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Alan Calder  
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 More options 24 Mar 2007, 22:33
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Alan Calder <alan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:33:57 +0000 (GMT)
Local: Sat 24 Mar 2007 22:33
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In article <81d7b8c84e.Ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>,
   Nigel Willmott <nwillm...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> The RO situation once again looks bleak. I haven't been around for
> most of the last 10 days, but on re-entering the RO universe, I find
> that one of its last real-world users is jumping ship and its only
> serious developer of major new applications is taking time out.

[Snip]

> So one last effort. It seems that what we lack is mechanism to link
> users (ie non-programmers) who want to support continued development
> with developers who might want to do it (given the market doesn't do
> it).

[Snip]

> I have no time, inclination (or talent) to get involved in programming
> per se.
> Naturally I'm interested in supporting things which are useful to me
> (though I'm willing to support other applications important to the
> platform but not much use to me - eg Artworks).

[Snip]

> Worth a try ...

I agree.  Not necessarily with all your priorities but many of them and
some of your solutions.  I have the impression that RO is rapidly becoming
a hobbyist niche - the equivalent of model train enthusiasm with all that
implies with its obsession with the correctness of company liveries and its
disregard of the world outside the model area.  I actually like using my RO
machines and I would very much like to continue doing so without having to
worry my head with the (to me) arcane niceties of programming issues.

More power to you!

Cheers

Alan

--
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.


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David  
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 More options 24 Mar 2007, 23:24
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: David <nos...@nomaps.amnops.invalid>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:24:25 +0000 (GMT)
Local: Sat 24 Mar 2007 23:24
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In article <3dd6c6c84e.zen44...@zen.co.uk>, Simon Smith

Yebbut... I bet the number of users is no more than half of what it was
when you said it.

> RISC OS /is/ only - well mostly - a minority or hobbyist OS, but I
> really don't think any the less of it for that. I say, keep your
> expectations realistic, contribute where you can, and enjoy using the
> OS as long as it's available. That's all I'm doing. And given that I
> don't make unreasonable demands of it, its reliability, consistency,
> ease of use etc. have repaid me manyfold. What more can one ask?

The GUI is wonderful; the co-operative multitasking & modular design is
wonderful; BASIC with embedded m/c should be (and used to be) the bees
knees; the window back button and 3-button mouse system is pure ecstasy
(for non-fingerlarly challenged folks); the non-standard, slothly slow
hardware sucks molasses through a hollow microfibre.

Without apps, the platform says nothing to the general user; and
without an economic speed, even apps might well wonder what they're
supposed to be doing.

--
David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/


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Steve Fryatt  
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 More options 24 Mar 2007, 23:24
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Steve Fryatt <n...@stevefryatt.org.uk>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:24:45 GMT
Local: Sat 24 Mar 2007 23:24
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
On 24 Mar, Alan Calder wrote in message
  <4ec8cec754alan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk>:

> I agree.  Not necessarily with all your priorities but many of them and
> some of your solutions.  I have the impression that RO is rapidly
> becoming a hobbyist niche - the equivalent of model train enthusiasm
> with all that implies with its obsession with the correctness of company
> liveries and its disregard of the world outside the model area.  I
> actually like using my RO machines and I would very much like to
> continue doing so without having to worry my head with the (to me)
> arcane niceties of programming issues.

The problem is, you don't get any new software without /someone/ worrying
about the "arcane niceties of programming issues".

While I'm not even going to try and defend what has been said in the most
recent Firefox spat, there does seem to be a worrying trend towards the
users attacking those at the sharp end when the awkward realities of RISC
OS software development are pointed out.  If we're going to get anywhere,
users have to realise that developers will have good reasons for
indicating the way in which they wish development to proceed.  That those
reasons are technical doesn't make them any less valid.

Developers are not argumentative for the sake of it; if a request can be
answered, it usually will be.  But, users also *have* to accept replies
that are more like "that's not practical" or "yes, but X and Y will have
to be done first" without writing petulant posts to usenet claiming that
developers don't live in the real world.  This is especially true if the
users don't wish to try and understand the "arcane niceties of programming
issues" which constrain what can be done given the resources available and
the best order in which to do it.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/


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Jeremy Brayshaw  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 08:22
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Jeremy Brayshaw <jer...@brayshaw.org.uk>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:22:56 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 08:22
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS

Franz Werner wrote:

<VoIP>

> One is that you can not only talk to someone, with webcams you can see
> them and they can see you at the same time.

As I understand it, VoIP does not allow for cameras to be used. Skype
- which does not follow the open VoIP protocols - have adapted the
process to their own purposes, which includes web cams. MSN also
allows voice and web cams, but that's not VoIP either!

By definition, VoIP cannot deal with anything other than voice!

Skype is a closed protocol, so it can't be developed by anyone but
Skype themselves. We already have an MSN client for RISC OS - this
would be the most sensible option to develop for web cam use, but
that's different to VoIP!

As for 'cluttering the desk top with electronic gizmos', my VoIP
adaptor is nobbut a large bulge in the wire - not what I would call
'clutter'! But I understand that some people like to consolidate their
facilities in one unit. Personally, I like to use a phone for phone
calls, just as I like to use a TV for watching telly. But I accept
that some prefer to watch telly on a computer, or use 'the clutter
:-)' of headsets etc to phone via a computer. Even accepting this, I
don't see giving RISC OS a VoIP softphone is a priority. Developing
the MSN client to use web cams, though, would be a helpful
development!

(All IMHO of course!)

Jeremy.

--
Jeremy Brayshaw     <><


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Alan Calder  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 10:23
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Alan Calder <alan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:23:42 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 10:23
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In article <2b6ed3c84e.st...@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt

<n...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> On 24 Mar, Alan Calder wrote in message
>   <4ec8cec754alan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk>:
> > I agree.  Not necessarily with all your priorities but many of them
> > and some of your solutions.  I have the impression that RO is rapidly
> > becoming a hobbyist niche - the equivalent of model train enthusiasm
> > with all that implies with its obsession with the correctness of
> > company liveries and its disregard of the world outside the model
> > area.  I actually like using my RO machines and I would very much like
> > to continue doing so without having to worry my head with the (to me)
> > arcane niceties of programming issues.
> The problem is, you don't get any new software without /someone/
> worrying about the "arcane niceties of programming issues".

Sorry I din't express myself clearly.  I understand that "/someone/
 worrying about the "arcane niceties of programming issues" is essential
but it for asking non-programmers to do so is a recipe for frustration and
confusion.  Transfer the idea to any other consumer item and you might see
what I mean.  Customer: "I have just bought this washing machine but it
won't start.  Can you help".  John Lewis spokesperson: "I am sorry, unless
you understand the problems with the UK electricity supply and are willing
to work to get them fixed then we cannot help you.  Furthermore, if you
attempt attempt to get the machine to start on your own then we will
invalidate your guarantee".

> While I'm not even going to try and defend what has been said in the
> most recent Firefox spat, there does seem to be a worrying trend towards
> the users attacking those at the sharp end when the awkward realities of
> RISC OS software development are pointed out.  If we're going to get
> anywhere, users have to realise that developers will have good reasons
> for indicating the way in which they wish development to proceed.  That
> those reasons are technical doesn't make them any less valid.

I've not seen signs of users attacking developers.  What I have seen is
frustration on the part of many of being asked to get involved in something
they have no real understanding of.  Many have been/are willing to help in
the way they can be it by providing funds/being testers/ writing
documentation but being asked to become software writers is just hopeless.

> Developers are not argumentative for the sake of it; if a request can be
> answered, it usually will be.  But, users also *have* to accept replies
> that are more like "that's not practical" or "yes, but X and Y will have
> to be done first" without writing petulant posts to usenet claiming that
> developers don't live in the real world.  This is especially true if the
> users don't wish to try and understand the "arcane niceties of
> programming issues" which constrain what can be done given the resources
> available and the best order in which to do it.

Again I believe you have it the wrong way round. If I was a programmer I
would be delighted to join in where I could.  If I was a Mandarin speaker I
would get a job in China etc.  Yes, I could learn to program/Mandarin but
life's short now - I have to get by with the phrasebook.  Again, I have not
seen 'petulant' posts but I have seen puzzled and frustrated posts from
users, including myself, who cannot understand why their offers of help are
brushed aside if they don't involve the writing of code.

Cheers

Alan

--
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.


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David Pitt  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 09:29
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: David Pitt <n...@pittdj.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:29:04 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 09:29
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In message <81d7b8c84e.Ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>
  Nigel Willmott <nwillm...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

[snip - someone else worried about RISC OS]

>I have no obvious answer, but in the spirit of "think not what Risc OS
>can do for you, but what you can do for Risc OS", here's what I am
>willing to do to support continued development:

>1)  Fund small but significant developments by donation (up to a
>couple of hundred quid, say), if they provide me with useful
>additional functionality - along with other users if more, but not
>massively more, costly.

I tried that with Select and even an A9home.

--
David Pitt.

Computing with RISC OS.


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Doug Webb  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 11:15
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Doug Webb <doug.j.w...@btinternet.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:15:03 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 11:15
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In message <914305c94e.pitt...@pittdj.plus.com>
          David Pitt <n...@pittdj.co.uk> wrote:

Think of Select as being that you donate and you have no say in what
is put in to future Select versions. If on the other hand you had a
more collective approach and those putting in to a fund directed what
they want from a none programming point and offering funding for
development then it could work. Of course some feedback from
programmers would be required to ensure something was technically
feasible but in essence the users become the the co-operative/group
behind things rather than mere end users and recipients.

Now the funding could come day from a user group or the whole of the
RISC OS user groups or from a purposely set up vehicle with a binding
charter.

Equally non programmers can also assist by becoming "Development"
enablers or contributing time to pull the required development
together and assisting developers by providing testing and feedback or
documentation etc.

All it needs is a willingness to do it and a little thought and we
could have some developments going that not only filled the gaps in
RISC Os but also enabled developers to get some reward for their
contributions. This might also get around the obvious issue that we
face in that developers most often develop something using their own
time for free as it is something they either need or interests them.
Some monetary reward might help a developer to donate their time on
something other than this. Now the monatary gain is not going to be
great but it might just help.

Doug

--
Using a Iyonix PC and RISC OS 5.13, the thinking persons alternative
operating system to Microsoft Windows.


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Qercus editor  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 12:32
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Qercus editor <edi...@qercus.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:32:13 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 12:32
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In article <2b6ed3c84e.st...@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>,
   Steve Fryatt <n...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:

> I'll get off my soapbox now.

Please don't. We *need* a dialogue between programmers and users. Normally
that's facilitated by marketing people and lubricated with cash. If
programmers want to explain what they know are the constraints on development,
and users want to discuss their needs, then Qercus will be very happy to
publish - moderated to remove any petulance. If it cannot be discussed on
usenet without argument (and thank you Steve for avoiding it!) then we *can*
use an alternative.

--
John Cartmell - editor AT qercus.com  www.qercus.com   www.acornuser.com
        Qercus/Acorn User: reporting on computers & computing since 1982
        Qercus/Acorn User, 30 Finnybank Rd Sale M33 6LR  == 0845 006 8822


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David Pitt  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 12:51
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: David Pitt <n...@pittdj.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:51:54 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 12:51
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In message <78f70ec94e.dougjw...@btopenworld.com>
  Doug Webb <doug.j.w...@btinternet.com> wrote:

That is not quite what I think of Select. Donate money yes. It does not
matter whether one has any say in the output or not because there is no
substantive output.

--
David Pitt.

Computing with RISC OS.


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Alan Wrigley  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 13:08
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Alan Wrigley <spamha...@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:08:31 GMT
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 13:08
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In message <2b6ed3c84e.st...@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>
          Steve Fryatt <n...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:

> On 24 Mar, Alan Calder wrote in message
>   <4ec8cec754alan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk>:

>> I actually like using my RO machines and I would very much like to
>> continue doing so without having to worry my head with the (to me)
>> arcane niceties of programming issues.

> The problem is, you don't get any new software without /someone/ worrying
> about the "arcane niceties of programming issues".

Which is where people like me come in since a large part of my
continued use of RISC OS is due to my enjoyment of those arcane
niceties. But the money isn't there to sustain full-time development.

Alan

--
RISC OS - you know it makes cents


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Steve Fryatt  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 13:56
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Steve Fryatt <n...@stevefryatt.org.uk>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:56:13 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 13:56
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
On 25 Mar, Alan Calder wrote in message
  <4ec90a43dfalan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk>:

No-one is expecting users to fully understand the issues.  However, I
don't consider it unreasonable for users to understand that there /are/
issues which affect what gets developed, beyond the obvious "we want
realplayer *now*, because we want to use the BBC website", even if they
don't understand (or don't want to, or need to, understand) what those
reasons actually are.

> Transfer the idea to any other consumer item and you might see what I
> mean.  Customer: "I have just bought this washing machine but it won't
> start.  Can you help".  John Lewis spokesperson: "I am sorry, unless you
> understand the problems with the UK electricity supply and are willing
> to work to get them fixed then we cannot help you.  Furthermore, if you
> attempt attempt to get the machine to start on your own then we will
> invalidate your guarantee".

There's a big difference here, though.  If I buy a product from John
Lewis, I expect it to be finished (or at least well supported).

But, when we're talking about *beta* software or software that's otherwise
pre-release (eg. Firefox, NetSurf), the rules are a bit different.  In
this case, it has been released for others to test and fault-find; by its
very nature, it isn't really a product for end users, unless they are
happy to accept that things may be unfinished or may not work, and that
they are on their own if anything goes wrong.

If such software works, fine; if it doesn't, walk away and come back when
a new version is out or it's been fully released.  This is similar to the
approach used in the Linux world, where end users are specifically
encouraged *not* to touch the most recent releases until they have been
stabilised.

And in those circumstances, Peter's requests (although badly expressed and
arrogantly followed up) that people don't report issues to him unless they
know what they're doing, don't ask for help and don't provide hacks around
known issues seem more reasonable.  Bug reports of "it doesn't work" are
next to useless, and reports based on systems which have been changed from
that which the developer created (eg. by applying Paul V's patch) are
totally meaningless.  With lots of known problems, documenting them and
providing help can be a complete non-starter.

This isn't just a Firefox issue, by the way.  It affects (and I've seen it
affect) several other pre-release RISC OS applications which Peter has no
hand in.  A few years ago, beta software would have been released to a
select few experienced people to play with; these days, with a market the
size it is, that ideal approach isn't practical any more.

> > While I'm not even going to try and defend what has been said in the
> > most recent Firefox spat, there does seem to be a worrying trend
> > towards the users attacking those at the sharp end when the awkward
> > realities of RISC OS software development are pointed out.  If we're
> > going to get anywhere, users have to realise that developers will have
> > good reasons for indicating the way in which they wish development to
> > proceed.  That those reasons are technical doesn't make them any less
> > valid.

> I've not seen signs of users attacking developers.  What I have seen is
> frustration on the part of many of being asked to get involved in
> something they have no real understanding of.  Many have been/are
> willing to help in the way they can be it by providing funds/being
> testers/ writing documentation but being asked to become software
> writers is just hopeless.

I have.  Prior to the current (perhaps self-inflicted) abuse, Peter has
received public complaints that he won't look at the plugins needed to
view flash, Java and audio/video until the base Firefox is finished.  I
doubt that many of those complaining understand the reasons for the route
being taken.  He's also been villified on a few occasions for "losing
focus" and releasing stuff like Thunderbird or simple X-Windows apps,
despite the fact that I suspect these have simply 'fallen out' of the
main development work he's doing with little or no additional effort
required.

In parallel, I've seen a number of angry postings from users of NetSurf,
when they have been asked to provide more detailed or more concise reports
of problems.  Again, a lack of understanding of what pre-release software
is about is probably the cause.  In the NetSurf case, it's worth noting
that many issues are diffused precisely because, IIUC, they have a
middle-man between developers and those testing/using the software, who
has the time (because he isn't trying to write code) to explain issues in
more detail and in a more accessible way.

> > Developers are not argumentative for the sake of it; if a request can
> > be answered, it usually will be.  But, users also *have* to accept
> > replies that are more like "that's not practical" or "yes, but X and Y
> > will have to be done first" without writing petulant posts to usenet
> > claiming that developers don't live in the real world.  This is
> > especially true if the users don't wish to try and understand the
> > "arcane niceties of programming issues" which constrain what can be
> > done given the resources available and the best order in which to do
> > it.

> Again I believe you have it the wrong way round. If I was a programmer I
> would be delighted to join in where I could.  If I was a Mandarin
> speaker I would get a job in China etc.  Yes, I could learn to
> program/Mandarin but life's short now - I have to get by with the
> phrasebook.

I repeat: no-one is expecting end users to become programmers.  But, what
/would/ be helpful is if users can accept that there may be constraints as
to what can be developed (and in what order it can be done) which are not
clear to them.  I don't expect them to understand what those constraints
are, but just to realise that developers don't always decide what to do
next on a whim and a fancy.

If we can get just that across, I imagine that it would ease a lot of the
current friction.  Developers (generally) aren't being perverse for the
hell of it: they're users too, and know what RISC OS needs (a lot of 'PD'
developments start because the developer needs the software in question).
But, they also have an idea (in some cases a very good idea) of what needs
to be done in order to get there.  Sadly, these days on RISC OS, the old
adage of "I wouldn't start from here" often applies.

> Again, I have not seen 'petulant' posts but I have seen puzzled and
> frustrated posts from users, including myself, who cannot understand why
> their offers of help are brushed aside if they don't involve the writing
> of code.

I don't believe they have.  Peter has (inarticulately, it must be said) on
many occasions offered ways for non-programmers to get involved:
documentation, structured testing and packaging are but three
possibilities.

Other developers (myself included) have asked for help with documentation
and icon design on a number of occasions.  I don't know about anyone else,
but I've *never* received any signs that users are even remotely
interested in the idea of helping with these.

If nothing else, maybe some people would like to offer to do "PR" for some
of the other developers: becoming a point of contact for users and
answering the 'easy' questions without bothering those doing the
programming?  I don't know if it would work, but it may be worth a try?

One thing to point out is this.  Writing this post (and its predecessor),
re-reading it to try and remove ambiguities, and then re-reading it again
to check that I've been as clear as I can be, has taken a couple of hours
all in.  I had originally set this morning aside to do some work on
IcnClipBrd, which badly needs a few tweaks and was due an updated release
probably this week.  That now hasn't been done, and is unlikely to be done
any time soon as my RISC OS To Do list is quite big at present.
Therefore, I don't think that it's too far fetched to say that trying to
explain this has cost users an update to a piece of software.  That isn't
to blame Alan, but simply to try and illustrate that the demand for better
communication does have consequences.

I'm now off to wash the car...

--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/


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Qercus editor  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 14:07
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Qercus editor <edi...@qercus.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:07:14 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 14:07
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In article <4ec90a43dfalan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk>, Alan Calder

<alan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Again, I have not seen 'petulant' posts but I have seen puzzled and
> frustrated posts from users, including myself, who cannot understand why
> their offers of help are brushed aside if they don't involve the writing of
> code.

The simplest help that end users can give is:
1. Say what they want.
2. Pay for it when it becomes available.

Developers who demand more are being unrealistic. End users who complain
whilst being unwilling to do 1 & 2 are being unrealistic. End users who are
willing to do more than 1 & 2 should be welcomed with open arms.

NB There is a number 3 that is especially important in the case of software
provided free: say thanks and provide feedback that can help improve the
product.

--
John Cartmell - editor AT qercus.com  www.qercus.com   www.acornuser.com
        Qercus/Acorn User: reporting on computers & computing since 1982
        Qercus/Acorn User, 30 Finnybank Rd Sale M33 6LR  == 0845 006 8822


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Alan Wrigley  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 14:33
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Alan Wrigley <spamha...@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:33:56 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 14:33
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In message <4ec91ebb03edi...@qercus.com>
          Qercus editor <edi...@qercus.com> wrote:

> In article <4ec90a43dfalan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk>, Alan Calder
> <alan_cal...@orpheusmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Again, I have not seen 'petulant' posts but I have seen puzzled and
>> frustrated posts from users, including myself, who cannot understand why
>> their offers of help are brushed aside if they don't involve the writing of
>> code.

> The simplest help that end users can give is:
> 1. Say what they want.
> 2. Pay for it when it becomes available.

3. Be realistic and accept that there are some things they may want
that are hopelessly uneconomic to provide.

Alan

--
RISC OS - you know it makes cents


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Ams  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 15:22
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: "Ams" <a...@globalcafe.ie>
Date: 25 Mar 2007 07:22:25 -0700
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 15:22
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
On Mar 25, 2:33 pm, Alan Wrigley

<spamha...@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4ec91ebb03edi...@qercus.com>
>           Qercus editor <edi...@qercus.com> wrote:

<snip>

> > The simplest help that end users can give is:
> > 1. Say what they want.
> > 2. Pay for it when it becomes available.

> 3. Be realistic and accept that there are some things they may want that are hopelessly uneconomic to provide.

Agreed. One might possibly add that sometimes unrealistic expectations
are encouraged then when they aren't achieved people leave. Best
approach is promise little  and deliver more than that. The opposite
of that has already done far too much damage to this platform.

> Alan

> --
> RISC OS - you know it makes cents

Regards

Annraoi


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Steve Potts  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 18:17
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Steve Potts <nos...@all.invaliid>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:17:35 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 18:17
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In message <1174832545.915099.296...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
          "Ams" <a...@globalcafe.ie> wrote:

> On Mar 25, 2:33 pm, Alan Wrigley
> <spamha...@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> > 3. Be realistic and accept that there are some things they may want that
> > are hopelessly uneconomic to provide.

> Agreed. One might possibly add that sometimes unrealistic expectations
> are encouraged then when they aren't achieved people leave. Best
> approach is promise little  and deliver more than that. The opposite
> of that has already done far too much damage to this platform.

I think there is evidence that some companies are choosing the "promise
little and try to deliver more" approach.

[snip]

Steve.
--
StevePotts at blastzone DOT demon STOP co DOT uk (www.blastzone.demon.co.uk/)
Written on RISC OS.
http://www.riscos.com/

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


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Theo Markettos  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 18:42
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Theo Markettos <theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Date: 25 Mar 2007 18:42:53 +0100 (BST)
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 18:42
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
Steve Fryatt <n...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> There's a big difference here, though.  If I buy a product from John
> Lewis, I expect it to be finished (or at least well supported).

[snip]

Thanks, that's a good assessment of the situation.

Part of Peter's complaint (not tactfully put) is that sometimes user and
developer actions can make things worse, not better, and this is where some
sort of co-ordination is required.  Look at the number of hard disc
formatters we have - one for every disc interface.  If someone had sat down
and designed a formatter that could cope with multiple disc interfaces then
it would make programmers' lives easier (as they didn't have to write and
support a new one for a new interface) and also users' (because the
formatter could format the latest drives on the oldest interfaces, and it
would be maintained properly).

If you look at the Wikipedia model, small contributions from many people
make a much better end result than large contributions from a few - and this
is something we might aim to follow.  http://www.riscos.info/ is the most
obvious way that follows from this: it's a collaboratively developed resource,
not Peter's personal website.  For example, look at the following pages:

http://www.riscos.info/index.php/Monitor_Definition_Files
http://www.riscos.info/index.php/MassFS_OtherDevs_entries

I bet many people here could add to those straightaway - that's the idea.
It takes a few minutes to add some content, and then it's available for
everyone.  By writing a tutorial, say, you help other people use their time
more efficiently and so things can progress more quickly.  But also the
advantage of the collaborative process is that it's easy to expand the
tutorial - even just correcting the spelling mistakes is easy.
Look at the edits for this tutorial, and see how it's grown over time:
http://www.riscos.info/index.php?title=Using_GCCSDK&action=history
(click on a date for the tutorial as it was then).

There are other ways in which small contributions from many can join to
create a much larger whole.  This is better than only financial
contributions, because developer time is an expensive resource (so we can
only afford a little) but contributor time isn't.

I think everyone agrees that we have very limited manpower in all sorts of
areas.  The idea is to suggest that it's targeted better, while accepting
that people only have certain skills and do what they're interested in.

Theo


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Steve Potts  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 19:17
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Steve Potts <nos...@all.invaliid>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:17:40 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 19:17
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In message <Hfu*N0...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
          Theo Markettos <theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> If you look at the Wikipedia model, small contributions from many people
> make a much better end result than large contributions from a few - and
> this is something we might aim to follow.  http://www.riscos.info/ is the
> most obvious way that follows from this: it's a collaboratively developed
> resource, not Peter's personal website.  For example, look at the following
> pages:

[snip]

> http://www.riscos.info/index.php/MassFS_OtherDevs_entries

> I bet many people here could add to those straightaway - that's the idea.

Thanks for pointing that one out.  I've now done my bit and added the entries
which were previously only available from my web site.

It was also refreshing to be able to use a WIKI that works under RISC OS
(Netsurf), although some of the copy / paste behaviour was a little strange
and I had to leave plenty of room either side when pasting to make sure it
didn't mess with the previous material.

[snip]

Steve.

--
StevePotts at blastzone DOT demon STOP co DOT uk (www.blastzone.demon.co.uk/)
Written on RISC OS.
http://www.riscos.com/

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


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Theo Markettos  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 21:15
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Theo Markettos <theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Date: 25 Mar 2007 21:15:34 +0100 (BST)
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 21:15
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS

Steve Potts <nos...@all.invaliid> wrote:
> In message <Hfu*N0...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>          Theo Markettos <theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> http://www.riscos.info/index.php/MassFS_OtherDevs_entries

> Thanks for pointing that one out.  I've now done my bit and added the
> entries which were previously only available from my web site.

Thanks.  Now the pages have a bit more content I've linked them in from
http://www.riscos.info/ so they should be a bit more visible now.

Theo


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Chika  
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 More options 25 Mar 2007, 23:45
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.apps
From: Chika <miy...@spam-no-way.invalid>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 23:45:02 +0100
Local: Sun 25 Mar 2007 23:45
Subject: Re: Future of Risc OS
In article <732ec1c84e.Jer...@pressxpress.co.uk>,
   Jeremy Brayshaw <jer...@brayshaw.org.uk> wrote:

> I can't see any advantage whatever for having a software phone on any
> computer, be it Windows, RISC OS or anything else!

I've got to agree with that one. Strictly speaking, te transmission and
reception of real time voice traffic has been possible on computers with
access to sufficient bandwidth and the necessary sound bits for many years
now, regardless of OS. The trick is to get it away from the computer, and
the various folk making the kit are getting there now and at a price that
brings it within reach of the ordinary farty.

--
 //\  // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk>
//  \//  "Word to the wise guy; be nice or be dog food!"

... Reduce brain fat.  Eat Moral Fiber.


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