Microsoft's Scott Guthrie Lies About/Twists "Cross-platform" to Hijack Web
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101.  Jim Richardson  
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 More options 4 Mar 2008, 20:38
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: Jim Richardson <warl...@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:38:24 -0800
Local: Tues 4 Mar 2008 20:38
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Scott Guthrie Lies About/Twists "Cross-platform" to Hijack Web
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On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:56:49 -0500,
 Erik Funkenbusch <e...@despam-funkenbusch.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:17:07 +0100, Hadron wrote:

>>> How is that different from QT, MySQL, or any of host of other open source
>>> applications that offer proprietary licenses as well?

>> You don't think for one minute that Liarnut actually read or understood
>> anything there do you? He's just posturing and showing off in his new
>> role as Roy's lapdog following the departure of Lapdog Colly.

> You're not helping the discourse by pulling this shit Hadron.

> I understand you have a grudge, but please stop infecting other threads
> just to piss all over.

Bravo! thanks Erik.

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--
Jim Richardson     http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
All life is a conjugation of the verb "to eat"


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102.  Linonut  
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 More options 3 Mar 2008, 20:50
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: Linonut <lino...@bollsouth.nut>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:50:34 -0500
Local: Mon 3 Mar 2008 20:50
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Scott Guthrie Lies About/Twists "Cross-platform" to Hijack Web
* Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:

> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:51:57 -0500, Linonut wrote:

>>    For licensing details, contact mono-licens...@novell.com
>>    (mailto:mono-licens...@novell.com)

> How is that different from QT, MySQL, or any of host of other open source
> applications that offer proprietary licenses as well?

How is it different?  The mailto.

Think about it.

>>> (b) whether its good for Linux to be a second class citizen on the web
>>> when you are unable to watch content.

>> You need to rephrase it.  The question is whether it is good to convert
>> citizens into second-class citizens on the web by virtue of restricting
>> their access to content to a format promulgated by a large, powerful,
>> and dominant corporation, requiring the relatively expensive purchase of
>> a proprietary (and unlicensed for production by any other vendor)
>> operating system.

> You don't need to purchase anything to use Silverlight on Linux, either to
> create or view using Mono.

Purchase or not doesn't matter so much.  Can this new Mono code be
distributed by RedHat?

When will it be put in Debian?

It's still pretty rough-looking, though that's just because of the dev
curve:

   http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

   Licensing

   Moonlight will be distributed for most major Linux distributions
   directly from the Novell site.

   Users of Moonlight interested in using this on embedded systems should
   contact m...@novell.com (mailto:m...@novell.com) to obtain a commercial
   license. See our Licensing page for details.

   The Microsoft covenant for Moonlight users is posted here
   (http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/moonlight.mspx).

Some clips:

   Microsoft reserves the right to update (including discontinue) the
   foregoing covenant pursuant to the terms of the Moonlight for Linux
   Collaboration Agreement between Novell and Microsoft that was
   publicly announced on September 5, 2007 (the \u201cAgreement\u201d);
   however, the foregoing covenant will continue as to specific copies
   of Moonlight Implementations distributed by Novell before any such
   update.

I think I'd consult with a lawyer before consenting to be a "downstream
recipient", just in case it becomes a pee stream.

   http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/open_letter_patents.mspx

   Microsoft and Novell have agreed to disagree on whether certain open
   source offerings infringe Microsoft patents and whether certain
   Microsoft offerings infringe Novell patents.

--
Understand that this is the last physical format there will ever be.
   -- Bill Gates, On Blu-ray. interview The Daily Princetonian (14 Oct 2005)


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103.  Mark Kent  
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 More options 3 Mar 2008, 17:34
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: Mark Kent <mark.k...@demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:34:05 +0000
Local: Mon 3 Mar 2008 17:34
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Scott Guthrie Lies About/Twists "Cross-platform" to Hijack Web
Miguel de Icaza <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com> espoused:

Umm, it was going quiet well until this point.  We're not talking about
Girls Aloud or Boyzone, we're talking about a company which has just
been fined E650millions for anti-trust violations, and has a lengthy
history of such activities which are well documented.

Even Mr Ballmer said today that Microsoft's biggest *threat* is Linux.

So, would you like to reconsider your response?  Ballmer thinks that
Linux is a huge issue for Microsoft - how do you think that Microsoft
will behave with respect to Mono, considering their fear of Linux?

--
| Mark Kent   --   mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk          |
| Cola faq:  http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/   |
| Cola trolls:  http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/                        |
| My (new) blog:  http://www.thereisnomagic.org                        |


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104.  [H]omer  
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 More options 3 Mar 2008, 22:18
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: "[H]omer" <s...@uce.gov>
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:18:05 +0000
Local: Mon 3 Mar 2008 22:18
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Scott Guthrie Lies About/Twists "Cross-platform" to Hijack Web
[Attribution fixed]

Miguel de Icaza wrote:
> [H]omer wrote:
>> 1) ... What proportion of Mono uses Microsoft's patented
>> technology, including that which is is part of the ECMA
>> specifications?

> Read our policy on patents (Microsoft or otherwise):

> http://www.mono-project.com/FAQ:_Licensing

I was not asking for a reaffirmation of your policies, but rather a
clarification of the extent of Microsoft's property in Mono.

From the link:

"The core of the .NET Framework, and what has been patented by Microsoft
falls under the ECMA/ISO submission"

And:

"The Mono project has gone beyond both of those components and has
developed and integrated third party class libraries"

I think it would be prudent to include patent notices with the upstream
distribution of Mono, in a addition to the usual copyright notices, in
order to differentiate those components which are Microsoft's
Intellectual Property, for the benefit of those of us who might need to
assess our liabilities, and make an informed choice.

> Which is not different than any other open source project.

That does not appear to be the case:

"When a developer contributes code to the C# compiler or the Mono
runtime engine, we require that the author grants Novell the right to
relicense his/her contribution under other licensing terms.

This allows Novell to re-distribute the Mono source code to parties that
might not want to use the GPL or LGPL versions of the code.

Particularly embedded system vendors obtain grants to the Mono runtime
engine and modify it for their own purposes without having to release
those changes back."

This would essentially preclude anyone from protecting their
contributions, to the core of Mono, from being exploited in such a way
that destroys the intended freedom of that contribution. Effectively,
this is a GPL circumvention device, in the vein of Tivoisation.

That does not seem at all consistent with the principles of Free Software.

>> 2) ... To what degree do you trust ECMA and the RAND covenant to
>> not sue, for the use of any Microsoft Intellectual Property?

> See the above link.

The above link provides no indication of either your opinion, nor
Novell's, of the trustworthiness or authority of RAND agreements, much
less how viable such agreements are in relation to Microsoft.

>> 3) ... To what degree do you Trust Microsoft, either in terms of
>> their promises; their motivations; or their commitment to a
>> competing platform like Linux?

> This is a question that is suitable for Teen magazine or Cosmo.

It was a question deemed serious enough by the DOJ and EU commission,
that it prompted investigation and remedy against Microsoft under the
terms of anti-trust violations.

> Sadly there is no bumper-sticker answer, or I would gladly give you
> that.

It seems simple enough to me. Do you, or do you not trust Microsoft to
engage with the Free Software community with only good and honourable
intentions?

> This is a multi-dimensional question, that requires all the nuances
> of a full blog post.

If the answer is that complex, then that would seem to suggest that
there are elements of doubt to your opinions of Microsoft's intentions,
would it not?

Perhaps you could elucidate those doubts for our benefit.

> You might want to read my interviews, my blog and my position as
> stated on Slashdot.

I have, and continue to do so, including your recent Channel9 interview,
which I found to be just as evasive and full of platitudes as all your
other public comments.

It is an interesting interview, however, and reveals that you are
obviously someone who is primarily technically motivated, with little
interest in political issues, similar to Torvalds for example.

However, in your efforts to counteract the demonisation of Microsoft,
you appear to have overcompensated somewhat, since you are clearly
fawning to the interviewer. I found your comments with respect to
Windows reliability quite amusing. You seemed to be inferring that
Windows hasn't suffered interminable instability and crashes since the
days of Windows 3.1, which is clearly not the case.

Since this interview was little more than a PR exercise ("Microsoft:
we're not evil, honest"), I would not have seriously expected you to
voice your true opinions of them, since that would have entirely
defeated the purpose of the exercise.

I'm afraid it might be an entirely unrealistic expectation for you to
speak candidly about a company that is, in essence, your employer, but I
was hoping you could at least provide some form of reassurance. After
all, you are an ambassador for Mono (regardless of whatever other
capacity you may fill), so it's only natural that you should be prepared
to endorse it with authoritative assurances, since the authority;
veracity; and trustworthiness of Microsoft; ECMA and Novell are
questionable.

>> 4) ... Do you foresee a point in the future where access to much of
>> the Web might be impossible, or at least extraordinarily
>> difficult, without the use of Silverlight, much like Microsoft
>> tried to do with ActiveX and other proprietary; encumbered; and
>> non-standard technology during the Netscape years?

> Another question suitable for Teen magazine.

Again, I refer you to the aforementioned anti-trust investigations.

Let me ask you a perfectly blunt question. Do you, or do you not think
that Microsoft should have been prosecuted for violations of the Sherman
Act?

If we can establish that much, then I'll know whether or not there is
any point to this discussion.

> Replace "Silverlight" with Javascript in the above question.   Can
> you browse the web without Javascript?   You certainly can, but some
> sites do not work without it.

This is not a question of technical dependencies, this is a question of
politics and legal liabilities, Neither Sun's; Netscape's nor Mozilla's
motivations or intentions are in question here; Microsoft's are.

> Or replace "Silverlight" with "Flash", you certainly can browse
> youtube, but you will not get much out of it without it.

Both Silverlight and Flash are proprietary and encumbered technologies,
and I have no interest in either one of them, beyond my fear that one
day I may be completely unable to use the Web without submitting to
Adobe's or Microsoft's arbitrary restrictions on my freedom.

> People will adopt Silverlight when it solves a problem for them, and
> each person will have to evaluate whether Silverlight over another
> technology is the right match for the problem.

And who will solve the problem of society's diminishing freedoms at the
hands of Intellectual Monopolists?

>> 5) ... Do you further forsee the likelihood that the binary blobs,
>> that you speak of, become a hard dependency in order to fully
>> utilise the future Web, as it will be reborn in Microsoft's image,
>> given the possibility that Microsoft may develop new proprietary
>> and encumbered codecs, or enforce their Intellectual Property
>> rights on Free implementations of existing codecs, such as those
>> used in FFMPEG?

> You are not required to use the binary blobs.   You can build
> Moonlight yourself and use the FFMPEG codecs.

Currently, yes, but if Microsoft was to forcibly assert it's
Intellectual Property claims on the Windows Media implementation in
ffmpeg, then I would have no choice but to accept these binary blobs, or
face restricted access to the Web, for what I'm sure Microsoft hopes
will represent an ever increasing proportion of sites that replace
traditional content with Microsoft's encumbered technology.

> Novell will not be redistributing the FFMPEG based code due to the
> conflict that the LGPL has with the patents owned by MPEGLA (to which
> we will become licensors).

Yes, I am also well aware of the conflicts of interest between ffmpeg
and MPEGLA, and indeed between Intellectual Monopolists and the Free
Software community in general.

>> 6) ... Therefore do you concede that it is possible, and indeed
>> likely, that the future of the Web (and in other contexts - office
>> documents and software development) might end up becoming utterly
>> dependent of Microsoft's Intellectual Property, and thus
>> effectively controlled (in essence "owned") by Microsoft, just as
>> they have been striving to do for so long, and have currently
>> succeeded in other areas, such as the OEM channel; games
>> development; hardware support; and elsewhere?

> You seem confused, and you seem to be asking questions and answering
> those yourself.

Not at all. I asked if you concede that it is possible. Do you or not?

Microsoft's modus operandum is well known and well documented, indeed
they have been prosecuted for it, which is the main reason it is so well
documented. What I am asking is if you believe that technologies like
.NET, Silverlight and OOXML are further extensions of that strategy, and
whether or not they assist Microsoft's agenda of market domination; the
inhibition of freedom and choice by the enforcement of Intellectual
Monopolies; and the suppression of Free Software and Open Standards.

>> 7) ... And finally, do you think it is prudent, or even morally
>> right, for Free Software developers to essentially help Microsoft
>> in their endeavours to dominate the Web; office formats; and
>> software development, particularly as Microsoft has continuously
>> expressed so much contempt and hatred for the principles of Free
>> Software and Open Standards over the years?

> I have blogged extensively about this question, you might want to
> read my blog on those subjects.  There are two dimensions to this
> problem, and I have addressed both: a) Microsoft providing a tool
> that people actually want to use, with a feature range of things that
> are genuinely useful while nobody else is;

As others have noticed, that is an extremely arrogant presumption.
Freedom is at least as important as functionality. As a Free Software
developer, I would have hoped you'd
...

read more »


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105.  Linonut  
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 More options 3 Mar 2008, 23:50
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: Linonut <lino...@bollsouth.nut>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:50:56 -0500
Local: Mon 3 Mar 2008 23:50
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Scott Guthrie Lies About/Twists "Cross-platform" to Hijack Web
* [H]omer peremptorily fired off this memo:

> It seems simple enough to me. Do you, or do you not trust Microsoft to
> engage with the Free Software community with only good and honourable
> intentions?

Or, lacking this trust, do you have an ironclad agreement?

Go!

   http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/04/ms_go_anti-trust_lawsuit/

   The founder of tablet computing pioneer Go Corporation has revived
   long dormant allegations of corporate wrongdoing with an anti-trust
   lawsuit against Microsoft. Jerry Kaplan alleges that Go technology
   demonstrated to Microsoft technicians under non-disclosure was used
   to help develop competing products.

--
We don't have the user centricity. Until we understand context, which is way
beyond presence -- presence is the most trivial notion, just am I on this
device or not; it doesn't say am I meeting with something, am I focused on
writing something.
   -- Bill Gates, .NET Briefing Day Speech (24 July 2002)


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106.  William Poaster  
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 More options 3 Mar 2008, 23:28
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: William Poaster <w...@leafnode.amd64.eu>
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:28:05 +0000
Local: Mon 3 Mar 2008 23:28
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Scott Guthrie Lies About/Twists "Cross-platform" to Hijack Web
On Monday 03 March 2008 4:07 pm,  Miguel de Icaza wrote in
comp.os.linux.advocacy:

<snip>

If you MUST use that google shite, & not a *proper* news client, kindly
attribute to whom you are replying.

--
Mandrake 2008.1 RC1
--On a 64bit system--


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107.  Moshe Goldfarb  
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 More options 26 Feb 2008, 20:33
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: Moshe Goldfarb <brick.n.st...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:33:25 -0500
Local: Tues 26 Feb 2008 20:33
Subject: Re: [Roy Schestowitz Lies Again] Microsoft's Scott Guthrie Lies About/Twists "Cross-platform" to Hijack Web

Quantity.
Seeding Google.
Spamming his own websites, which he convienintly managed to do in his reply
to you.
etc...

The list is endless, but Linux advocacy isn't on the list.
That's for certain.

--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/


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Discussion subject changed to "Cross-platform gets redefined .." by Doug Mentohl
108.  Doug Mentohl  
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 More options 3 Mar 2008, 15:38
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: Doug Mentohl <doug_ment...@linuxmail.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 07:38:22 -0800 (PST)
Local: Mon 3 Mar 2008 15:38
Subject: Cross-platform gets redefined ..
On 26 Feb, 16:05, Erik Funkenbusch <e...@despam-funkenbusch.com>
wrote:

> Microsoft itself makes Silverlight available on both the PC and Mac.  That makes it cross platform ..

It's 'cross platform' except on Linux .. :)

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109.  Hadron  
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 More options 3 Mar 2008, 15:45
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: Hadron <hadronqu...@googlemail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:45:27 +0100
Local: Mon 3 Mar 2008 15:45
Subject: Re: Cross-platform gets redefined ..

Doug Mentohl <doug_ment...@linuxmail.org> writes:
> On 26 Feb, 16:05, Erik Funkenbusch <e...@despam-funkenbusch.com>
> wrote:

>> Microsoft itself makes Silverlight available on both the PC and Mac.  That makes it cross platform ..

> It's 'cross platform' except on Linux .. :)

I don't understand.

It is cross platform.  Nothing is redefined.

Cross Platform never meant ALL platforms. Usually people don't target
minority platforms where there is no ROI (return on investment).


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110.  Troy Kirkland  
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 More options 3 Mar 2008, 15:53
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: "Troy Kirkland" <k...@google.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:53:37 -0500
Local: Mon 3 Mar 2008 15:53
Subject: Re: Cross-platform gets redefined ..

"Doug Mentohl" <doug_ment...@linuxmail.org> wrote in message

news:a96165ed-7a55-44e1-a6ad-e16aff553c1a@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

> On 26 Feb, 16:05, Erik Funkenbusch <e...@despam-funkenbusch.com>
> wrote:

>> Microsoft itself makes Silverlight available on both the PC and Mac.
>> That makes it cross platform ..

> It's 'cross platform' except on Linux .. :)

OpenOffice does not run on my PDP-11. So according to your "logic" (chrotle)
OpenOffice is not cross platform.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


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