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Joe Wright  
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 More options 8 Nov, 04:44
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Joe Wright <joewwri...@comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:44:59 -0500
Local: Sun 8 Nov 2009 04:44
Subject: Mr Ed
Why do you post here at comp.lang.c? You show no respect for anybody here and no
knowledge of the subject, C. That Heathfield and now Seebach treat you seriously
is mystery to me but, of course, their business.

You do seem widely read. As if you were locked in a library for several years
and had nothing to do but read the books. Not the technical ones it seems, but
the Poli Sci ones. You've read more Marx than Knuth I'll bet. Who is John Galt?

I've been programming professionally since 1979 and until today. I can program
rings around you and I'm still junior to many in this group. You are a fraud.

--
Joe Wright
"If you rob Peter to pay Paul you can depend on the support of Paul."


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Keith Thompson  
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 More options 8 Nov, 05:03
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Keith Thompson <ks...@mib.org>
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:03:06 -0800
Local: Sun 8 Nov 2009 05:03
Subject: Re: Mr Ed

Joe Wright <joewwri...@comcast.net> writes:
> Why do you post here at comp.lang.c? You show no respect for anybody
> here and no knowledge of the subject, C. That Heathfield and now
> Seebach treat you seriously is mystery to me but, of course, their
> business.

> You do seem widely read. As if you were locked in a library for
> several years and had nothing to do but read the books. Not the
> technical ones it seems, but the Poli Sci ones. You've read more Marx
> than Knuth I'll bet. Who is John Galt?

> I've been programming professionally since 1979 and until today. I can
> program rings around you and I'm still junior to many in this
> group. You are a fraud.

Perhaps he thrives on the attention you've just given him.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks...@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Nokia
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"


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Seebs  
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 More options 8 Nov, 05:04
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net>
Date: 08 Nov 2009 05:04:11 GMT
Local: Sun 8 Nov 2009 05:04
Subject: Re: Mr Ed
On 2009-11-08, Joe Wright <joewwri...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Why do you post here at comp.lang.c? You show no respect for anybody here and no
> knowledge of the subject, C. That Heathfield and now Seebach treat you seriously
> is mystery to me but, of course, their business.

I don't actually treat him seriously, just with a near-approximation of
basic courtesy.

I find usenet kooks amusing.  He's an excellent example of the type.
I was originally interested in seeing his arguments or reasons for his
claims about the standardization process, but at this point I'm obliged
to grant that he's just plain crazy.

But still sorta funny.  You gotta admire someone who, a week AFTER you
tell him that you're thinking of using his posts as a drinking game,
expresses shock and dismay to discover that you don't seem to be taking
him seriously.

Not the funniest kook I've ever engaged with, but by far the champion
of the pure non-sequitur.  I've talked to people whose posts were pure word
salad who were less able to astound and amaze with the sheer lack of
relationship between their positions and their stated reasons.

-s
--
Copyright 2009, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!


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Seebs  
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 More options 8 Nov, 06:01
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net>
Date: 08 Nov 2009 06:01:05 GMT
Local: Sun 8 Nov 2009 06:01
Subject: Re: Mr Ed
On 2009-11-08, Keith Thompson <ks...@mib.org> wrote:

> Perhaps he thrives on the attention you've just given him.

This is probably largely the case.  One of the underlying traits of a lot
of persistent usenet trolls is some degree of Narcissistic Personality
Disorder.  One of the big tells is an obsession with the qualifications of
people one knows or has some kind of relationship to.  The obsession with
Nash (who may be a wonderful guy, and very skilled in some field, but whom
I do not know to be an authority of any sort on C) is fairly typical, as
is the use of references to his own assertions as citations.

-s
--
Copyright 2009, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!


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Aatu Koskensilta  
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 More options 10 Nov, 08:16
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Aatu Koskensilta <aatu.koskensi...@uta.fi>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:16:06 +0200
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 08:16
Subject: Re: Mr Ed

Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net> writes:
> On 2009-11-08, Keith Thompson <ks...@mib.org> wrote:
>> Perhaps he thrives on the attention you've just given him.

> This is probably largely the case.  One of the underlying traits of a
> lot of persistent usenet trolls is some degree of Narcissistic
> Personality Disorder.

And people who diagnose people based on news posts often suffer of
clinical lycanthropy. Well, perhaps not. It is a common idea that plain
ordinary stupidity, obsession, eccentricity, incoherence, extreme
rudeness, stand in need of some clinical explanation but there's really
not much to recommend it.

ObC: is there some reason why structs, unions and enums don't live in
distinct namespaces?

--
Aatu Koskensilta (aatu.koskensi...@uta.fi)

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen"
 - Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus


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gwowen  
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 More options 10 Nov, 09:57
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: gwowen <gwo...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:57:02 -0800 (PST)
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 09:57
Subject: Re: Mr Ed
On Nov 10, 8:16 am, Aatu Koskensilta <aatu.koskensi...@uta.fi> wrote:

> And people who diagnose people based on news posts often suffer of
> clinical lycanthropy. Well, perhaps not.

Is there a Godwin-type law that states that any sufficiently long
Usenet thread will result in one of the antagonists offering an
amateur psychoanalytical diagnosis, based almost entirely on having
seen psychiatrists on detective shows.

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Richard Heathfield  
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 More options 10 Nov, 10:56
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Richard Heathfield <r...@see.sig.invalid>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:56:14 +0000
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 10:56
Subject: Re: Mr Ed
In
<fe4cd00d-cb5b-476a-9085-8b986119d...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,

gwowen wrote:
> On Nov 10, 8:16 am, Aatu Koskensilta <aatu.koskensi...@uta.fi>
> wrote:

>> And people who diagnose people based on news posts often suffer of
>> clinical lycanthropy. Well, perhaps not.

> Is there a Godwin-type law that states that any sufficiently long
> Usenet thread will result in one of the antagonists offering an
> amateur psychoanalytical diagnosis, based almost entirely on having
> seen psychiatrists on detective shows.

Yes. It's called Owen's Corollary.

--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line vacant - apply within


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Discussion subject changed to "Name spaces (Was: Mr Ed)" by Eric Sosman
Eric Sosman  
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 More options 10 Nov, 12:59
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Eric Sosman <esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:59:17 -0500
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 12:59
Subject: Name spaces (Was: Mr Ed)

Aatu Koskensilta wrote:
> [...]
> ObC: is there some reason why structs, unions and enums don't live in
> distinct namespaces?

     Struct tags, union tags, and enum tags *do* have separate
name spaces.  Each struct or union also defines a name space
for its own members, distinct from other name spaces.  The
members of an enum type (the int constants) are used without
any contextual clue that could identify a name space, so they
share the same name space as other "ordinary identifiers."
That is, in the (incorrect) code

        enum foo { APPLE, ORANGE, BANANA };
        enum bar { DELL, GATEWAY, APPLE };
        printf ("APPLE = %d\n", APPLE);

... there is nothing in the final line that could designate
whether foo's or bar's APPLE was intended.

--
Eric Sosman
esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid


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Noob  
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 More options 10 Nov, 13:36
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Noob <r...@127.0.0.1>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:36:22 +0100
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 13:36
Subject: Re: Name spaces (Was: Mr Ed)

Eric Sosman wrote:
>     Struct tags, union tags, and enum tags *do* have separate
> name spaces.  Each struct or union also defines a name space
> for its own members, distinct from other name spaces.  The
> members of an enum type (the int constants) are used without
> any contextual clue that could identify a name space, so they
> share the same name space as other "ordinary identifiers."
> That is, in the (incorrect) code

>     enum foo { APPLE, ORANGE, BANANA };
>     enum bar { DELL, GATEWAY, APPLE };
>     printf ("APPLE = %d\n", APPLE);

> ... there is nothing in the final line that could designate
> whether foo's or bar's APPLE was intended.

It is obvious that adam's APPLE was intended.

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Discussion subject changed to "Name spaces" by Ben Bacarisse
Ben Bacarisse  
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 More options 10 Nov, 15:28
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Ben Bacarisse <ben.use...@bsb.me.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:28:39 +0000
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 15:28
Subject: Re: Name spaces

Eric Sosman <esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid> writes:
> Aatu Koskensilta wrote:
>> [...]
>> ObC: is there some reason why structs, unions and enums don't live in
>> distinct namespaces?

>     Struct tags, union tags, and enum tags *do* have separate
> name spaces.

Do they?  I read 6.7.2.3 to mean that they don't and it seems that
the gcc people have done so too.  There are change bars in the draft
PDF I use (n1256) so it looks like this matter has been clarified
since C99.

>  Each struct or union also defines a name space
> for its own members, distinct from other name spaces.  The
> members of an enum type (the int constants) are used without
> any contextual clue that could identify a name space, so they
> share the same name space as other "ordinary identifiers."

True.  It's not clear whether the question was about tags or content,
it makes most sense if it was about tags.  If Aatu had asked only
about enums I'd have assumed that the contents were the issue.

<snip enum example>
--
Ben.


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Eric Sosman  
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 More options 10 Nov, 16:29
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Eric Sosman <esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:29:22 -0500
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 16:29
Subject: Re: Name spaces

Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Eric Sosman <esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid> writes:

>> Aatu Koskensilta wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> ObC: is there some reason why structs, unions and enums don't live in
>>> distinct namespaces?
>>     Struct tags, union tags, and enum tags *do* have separate
>> name spaces.

> Do they?  I read 6.7.2.3 to mean that they don't and it seems that
> the gcc people have done so too.  There are change bars in the draft
> PDF I use (n1256) so it looks like this matter has been clarified
> since C99.

     The issue is more directly addressed in 6.2.3, which says
that tags (for struct, union, and enum types) exist in their
own name space, separate from the name spaces of labels, struct
members, union members, and ordinary identifiers.  That's why
you can have

        typedef struct foo { int i; float f; } foo;

     However, the name space for tags includes *all* the tags,
so you can't have

        struct foo { int i; float f; };
        union foo { double d; char c; };
        enum foo { BAR, BAZ };

... which my earlier sloppy wording might have suggested.  Sorry
for any confusion.

--
Eric Sosman
esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid


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Ben Bacarisse  
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 More options 10 Nov, 18:23
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Ben Bacarisse <ben.use...@bsb.me.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:23:28 +0000
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 18:23
Subject: Re: Name spaces
Eric Sosman <esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid> writes:

<snip>

>     However, the name space for tags includes *all* the tags,
> so you can't have

>    struct foo { int i; float f; };
>    union foo { double d; char c; };
>    enum foo { BAR, BAZ };

> ... which my earlier sloppy wording might have suggested.  Sorry
> for any confusion.

Ah.  I took it the way you didn't mean!

--
Ben.


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Discussion subject changed to "Mr Ed" by Kaz Kylheku
Kaz Kylheku  
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 More options 10 Nov, 19:01
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Kaz Kylheku <kkylh...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:01:35 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 19:01
Subject: Re: Mr Ed
On 2009-11-10, Aatu Koskensilta <aatu.koskensi...@uta.fi> wrote:

> ObC: is there some reason why structs, unions and enums don't live in
> distinct namespaces?

What you mean like

  /* look, no clashes */
  enum foo;
  struct foo;
  union foo;

Well, the reason why structs and unions would be in the same space is
somewhat understandable: they are a variation on the same kind of thing.  A
union is a variation on the structure type, where the members are all at offset
zero. Still, the different keyword does disambiguate!

There is no good reason why ``enum foo'' cannot coexist with ``struct foo'',
since the tag is clearly disambiguated by context, and enumerations
and aggregates are very different things.

These restrictions did help the development of C++ though.

The reason why they are all conflated into one namespace is likely historic.
Early C compilers did not even put the /members/ into a separate namespace!
The member names had to be unique. That's why ``struct stat'' in Unix
has member names like ``st_ino''.

So the present situation of members being scoped to their respective
types is an improvement.

It's too late to put enums, structs and union tags into separate namespaces;
this would only cause C++ incompatibility.


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Discussion subject changed to "Name spaces" by Eric Sosman
Eric Sosman  
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 More options 10 Nov, 19:10
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Eric Sosman <esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:10:53 -0500
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 19:10
Subject: Re: Name spaces

Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Eric Sosman <esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid> writes:
> <snip>
>>     However, the name space for tags includes *all* the tags,
>> so you can't have

>>        struct foo { int i; float f; };
>>        union foo { double d; char c; };
>>        enum foo { BAR, BAZ };

>> ... which my earlier sloppy wording might have suggested.  Sorry
>> for any confusion.

> Ah.  I took it the way you didn't mean!

     My fault.  I started writing it one way, then re-worded
it -- and only half-edited it ...

--
Eric Sosman
esos...@ieee-dot-org.invalid


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Discussion subject changed to "Mr Ed" by Robert Latest
Robert Latest  
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 More options 10 Nov, 19:21
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Robert Latest <boblat...@yahoo.com>
Date: 10 Nov 2009 19:21:02 GMT
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 19:21
Subject: Re: Mr Ed

Aatu Koskensilta wrote:
> ObC: is there some reason why structs, unions and enums don't live in
> distinct namespaces?

At least struct types do.

robert


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Seebs  
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 More options 10 Nov, 19:43
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Seebs <usenet-nos...@seebs.net>
Date: 10 Nov 2009 19:43:26 GMT
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 19:43
Subject: Re: Mr Ed
On 2009-11-10, Aatu Koskensilta <aatu.koskensi...@uta.fi> wrote:

> ObC: is there some reason why structs, unions and enums don't live in
> distinct namespaces?

I'd guess it was a quirk of a very early compiler, and it's just sort of
stayed that way because no one wants to require it to be fixed.

You'll note that they all have the same basic form; <metatype> <tag>.

-s
--
Copyright 2009, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / usenet-nos...@seebs.net
http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!


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Flash Gordon  
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 More options 10 Nov, 19:55
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
From: Flash Gordon <s...@spam.causeway.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:55:03 +0000
Local: Tues 10 Nov 2009 19:55
Subject: Re: Mr Ed

Kaz Kylheku wrote:

<snip>

> It's too late to put enums, structs and union tags into separate namespaces;
> this would only cause C++ incompatibility.

Since the C and C++ committees talk to each other I would ahve thought
it would still be possible. The same change could be made to both C and
C++, although C++ might want to create even more name spaces. After all,
it's a change that could not break any existing code. Whether it is
worth it is another matter, and personally I'm not bothered.
--
Flash Gordon

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