I don't see much about System Builder here over the past several years. Is this environment still sold? By whom? Is there a free personal edition available ?
On Oct 30, 4:06 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> I don't see much about System Builder here over the past several > years. Is this environment still sold? By whom? Is there a free > personal edition available ?
On Oct 29, 11:57 pm, Ross Ferris <ro...@stamina.com.au> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 4:06 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > I don't see much about System Builder here over the past several > > years. Is this environment still sold? By whom? Is there a free > > personal edition available ?
> > Will Johnson
> It is still sold & supported by IBM
> .... err, I mean Rocket
I just found the site. Surprisingly I found it through Wikipedia ! That's a first for links to technical download sites, and Pick yet!
So anyway you can download SB as a Personal Edition but it looks like the build is from 2007 ? Seems a little dated. From the readmes it looks like you need not just this download but also either the UV or UD download as well. So in all a whopping 140Meg of zipped download , more or less. Unless I'm not reading this all right.
> at the bottom there's a link to the System Builder home page > which then has downloads.
The date is wrong. Release 6.0 is the most recent release. Were a dealer, so If you have a problem getting a copy let me know and I'll get you an evaluation copy.
> So anyway you can download SB as a Personal Edition but it looks like > the build is from 2007 ? Seems a little dated. From the readmes it > looks like you need not just this download but also either the UV or > UD download as well. So in all a whopping 140Meg of zipped download , > more or less. Unless I'm not reading this all right.
On 30 Oct, 18:31, Colin <ud.u2....@gmail.com> wrote:
> You do need to run it on top of UniData or UniVerse.
Although SB+ is now available only for U2, users are not trapped by this. The Nucleus product from BinaryStar can import SB+ projects, providing a path to QM (and others).
Designbais will also convert from SB+ (and runs on QM and others!). xlr8 was looking to add SB+ conversion capability (not sure where it ended up) but I think it only runs on U2. Osmosis (not sure if it's still around) also does SB+ conversion....
> > You do need to run it on top of UniData or UniVerse.
> Although SB+ is now available only for U2, users are not trapped by > this. The Nucleus product from BinaryStar can import SB+ projects, > providing a path to QM (and others).
> Designbais will also convert from SB+ (and runs on QM and others!). > xlr8 was looking to add SB+ conversion capability (not sure where it > ended up) but I think it only runs on U2. > Osmosis (not sure if it's still around) also does SB+ conversion....
> hth > Colin Alfke > Calgary, Canada
> On Nov 2, 9:38 am, Martin Phillips wrote:
> > On 30 Oct, 18:31, Colin wrote:
> > > You do need to run it on top of UniData or UniVerse.
> > Although SB+ is now available only for U2, users are not trapped by > > this. The Nucleus product from BinaryStar can import SB+ projects, > > providing a path to QM (and others).
> > Martin Phillips, Ladybridge Systems.
Colin,
Thanks for the plug. Yes, DesignBais can convert SB+ screens and whats more is that once converted to DB, you become future proof. Your application will run on any of the major MV platforms (U2, D3, QM, OnWare, Cache, Revelation, Reality and jBASE) without changing or converting the application (unless there are BASIC issues). Please let me know if you want a demo.
>Colin wrote: >> Designbais will also convert from SB+ (and runs on QM and others!). ... >> Osmosis (not sure if it's still around) also does SB+ conversion....
InterSystems acquired Osmosis but I don't know what they're doing with it, if it's still offered for sale to developers, or if it works on any platform other than D3. The only way to tell is for a qualified prospect to ask and see what happens. I was quite impressed with it at one point but could never get my hands on a version that I could use.
Having seen the SB+ conversion capabilities in both Osmosis and DesignBais, and having been a reseller for both products at one point, it's my opinion that the conversion in Osmosis is far superior. The DB conversion is about 20% automated and 80% manual, though all real developers know that's 98% automated with the last 2% simply taking another couple years to work out. Seriously, DesignBais has a strong SB+ heritage, but SB+ migration to DB is largely a manual effort.
The difference between Osmosis and DesignBais is that Osmosis renders as a thick client GUI plus character mode, where DB renders purely as thin client. So the tool you use depends on your target platform.
Rick Weiser wrote: >Yes, DesignBais can convert SB+ screens and >whats more is that once converted to DB, you become future proof. >Your application will run on any of the major MV platforms (U2, D3, >QM, OnWare, Cache, Revelation, Reality and jBASE) without changing or >converting the application (unless there are BASIC issues).
I'd like to inject a bit of reality:
- Your code is not "future proof" when the toolkit is changing all the time and the application code still needs to be changed amidst all of the other DB-specific code embedded in the application.
- Your code is also not "future proof" when it's based on ASP which is ancient, unmaintained, and likely to be deprecated any year now. I'll encourage any VAR to tell a potential client that his/her software is based on ASP and if they have any clue about what's going on in modern development they'll look at you like you're telling them to buy a dinosaur. (Hmm, well, you're selling Pick - never mind.)
- Your application will not magically run on all platforms. DesignBais is supported for multiple platforms but migration of application and DB are subject to platform-specific issues in both code sets.
- "unless there are BASIC issues"? How about dict issues? Issues with list processing? Issues with temp files? Connectivity issues? Issues with conversions or correlatives? Issues with the software not working according to the docs? Yes, assuming none of these issues exist (anymore) in DesignBais, you should be able to run it anywhere.
Despite the issues I had with the software over time, I think DesignBais is fine for a specific audience, or at least has potential to be. But "future proof" it is not, and I caution against over-statements of the benefits.
>>Ross Ferris wrote: >> Interesting ... I didn't know about the InterSystems play with >> Osmosis. Some of your other comments sound somewhat familiar :-) >LeeB wrote: >InterSystems did not acquire Osmosis. However, Osmosis runs on Cache >and therefore represents another alternative.
Lee is absolutely correct and I was wrong about this. I apologize for the misinformation.
In 2007 InterSystems and SC-Sys announced support for Osmosis over Caché, using the word "partner". I haven't heard anything about it since, but the SC-Sys website does indeed show that they are still an MPower1 company.
<address.is.in.po...@removethis.com.invalid> wrote: > >Colin wrote: > >> Designbais will also convert from SB+ (and runs on QM and others!). > ... > >> Osmosis (not sure if it's still around) also does SB+ conversion....
> InterSystems acquired Osmosis but I don't know what they're doing with > it, if it's still offered for sale to developers, or if it works on > any platform other than D3. The only way to tell is for a qualified > prospect to ask and see what happens. I was quite impressed with it > at one point but could never get my hands on a version that I could > use.
> Having seen the SB+ conversion capabilities in both Osmosis and > DesignBais, and having been a reseller for both products at one point, > it's my opinion that the conversion in Osmosis is far superior. The > DB conversion is about 20% automated and 80% manual, though all real > developers know that's 98% automated with the last 2% simply taking > another couple years to work out. Seriously, DesignBais has a strong > SB+ heritage, but SB+ migration to DB is largely a manual effort.
You are correct in this point. DB will convert an SB+ screen to a web form and it will look like an SB+ screen in a web form. But is that what the customer wants? I don't think so. With web forms you have much more real estate to work with. Do you want an SB+ screen that has multiple screens attached to it, to be rendered the same? I would think that you would want merge the screens together and take advantage of a tabbed or collapsing section layout. This is the strength of DB and where the manual effort come in to play.
> The difference between Osmosis and DesignBais is that Osmosis renders > as a thick client GUI plus character mode, where DB renders purely as > thin client. So the tool you use depends on your target platform.
> Rick Weiser wrote: > >Yes, DesignBais can convert SB+ screens and > >whats more is that once converted to DB, you become future proof. > >Your application will run on any of the major MV platforms (U2, D3, > >QM, OnWare, Cache, Revelation, Reality and jBASE) without changing or > >converting the application (unless there are BASIC issues).
> I'd like to inject a bit of reality:
> - Your code is not "future proof" when the toolkit is changing all the > time and the application code still needs to be changed amidst all of > the other DB-specific code embedded in the application.
While the toolkit does change we try very hard to avoid any changes that would cause the customer to recompile their code with a new release. I have been working for DB for almost 5 years now. Since my hiring there have been no releases that needed customer code recompilation.
I did say "Unless there are BASIC issues". What I meant is the customers business logic written in BASIC subroutines. If they took advantage of MV platform specific functions then these will need to be converted. The DB forms, reports, field definitions, selection processes, security settings, etc, will move to any supported MV platform without change. One way is to use the Developers Checklist.
> - Your code is also not "future proof" when it's based on ASP which is > ancient, unmaintained, and likely to be deprecated any year now. I'll > encourage any VAR to tell a potential client that his/her software is > based on ASP and if they have any clue about what's going on in modern > development they'll look at you like you're telling them to buy a > dinosaur. (Hmm, well, you're selling Pick - never mind.)
While ASP may be a dinosaur, it is still very workable and does exactly what we need it to do. Having said that, we are looking at moving to ASP .NET. We don't see any urgency to move on this. We need to take our time and make sure that everything will work as it does now. ASP is still usable and there appears to be no end in site. When we are confident with our ASP .NET model we will release it, but not before.
Stating that PICK is a dinosaur is irresponsible of you. The MV platform is alive and as far as I'm concerned vibrant. Take a look at the apps being developed today using MV on the backend. We have applications in DB that have replaced/won applications that use traditional RDBMS systems.
> - Your application will not magically run on all platforms. DesignBais > is supported for multiple platforms but migration of application and > DB are subject to platform-specific issues in both code sets.
The DB code set itself WILL work on the support platforms (U2, D3, OnWare, QM, Revelation, Reality, Cache) without change. Like I said above, there maybe a need to change the customers business logic.
> - "unless there are BASIC issues"? How about dict issues? Issues > with list processing? Issues with temp files? Connectivity issues? > Issues with conversions or correlatives? Issues with the software not > working according to the docs? Yes, assuming none of these issues > exist (anymore) in DesignBais, you should be able to run it anywhere.
As you know, there are only 2 places where DICTS are used, one initially load the DICTS into DB. And the other to perform selections for reports. If the DICT items works in the MV Platform then they will work in DB. As for the docs, we are working very hard to make sure the documentation is first class. I think that we have made major progress in this area over the last couple of releases and it will continue to get better. Along with our FREE Webinar trainings, users will be more prepared.
> Despite the issues I had with the software over time, I think > DesignBais is fine for a specific audience, or at least has potential > to be. But "future proof" it is not, and I caution against > over-statements of the benefits.
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