Last night, in the context of another thread, I posted: Message-ID: <REM-2009oct30-...@Yahoo.Com> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/fcb1f6252d45ae1c?hl... where I summarized my the core accounting features in http://TinyURL.Com/Portl1 which is the portal to http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco, and then I announced that I was ready to start implementing the next core feature, the first that goes beyond core accounting, namely surveys. The reason this is a "core" feature of NewEco is that it will be used to guide bootstrapping, by suggesting features that are popular enough to be worth implementing, as opposed to the tens of ideas I have had myself http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/projectIdeas.html most of which nobody really would use if I implemented because nobody wants or has any use for such features.
Here's a copy of what I said there about my NewEco surveys:
*** START QUOTE ***
So what surveys? I'll start off with two:
* What survey would you most like to invest in? - Survey of what survey you'd like to invest in (i.e. this self); - Survey of what NewEco features you'd like me to work on next; - Fill in blank: ___________________________________________________
* What NewEco feature would you prefer that I implement next? - FilJob = Filtering job ads to eliminate the ones you don't qualify for; - TruFut = Truth-futures market, estimating truth of claims; - Contract work: Post RequestForBids, lowest bidder does work and gets paid; - PAlert = Priority-alert notification system; - RevTre = Reverse tree for filtering mass-input to low-bandwidth destination - Fill in blank: ___________________________________________________ (Suggestion: Look at TinyURL.Com/NewEco and http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/projectIdeas.html for ideas of online services I'm eager to implement if you show interest.) ;;Addenda: RevTre added just now, not in last night's posting.
My current idea for design is 3 tables: - List of surveys - List of items in surveys - List of investments by users in items in surveys
*** END QUOTE ***
Now I'm starting to get into serious design of the three MySQL tables. Here's what I have so-far:
Addenda 2009.Oct.30 17:
Table surveys: - Auto-generated ID number, used to correlate with items in survey - Short title, to fit on cellphone screen after counts - Long title, to fit on VT100 screen after counts
Table suritems: - Auto-generated ID number, used to correlate with user-investments - Name of table containing survey to which this item is posted - ID of the survey (within that table) to which this item is posted - Short title, to fit on cellphone screen after counts - One-line description, to fit on VT100 screen after counts - Full description, to expand after link clicked
Table surinvest: - Auto-generated ID number, for toplevel citations from PHP scripts & SOAP msgs - ID number of user making this investment - Name of table containing survey-item to which this investment is made - ID within that table for the survey-item to which this investment is made - Current investment (milliseconds of labor)
For reference, note that for the core accounting parts of NewEco/Portl1 I am already using these tables: Array ( [Tables_in_calrobert_db1] => accounts5 ) ;Identifies each user account, and shows current milliseconds in account Array ( [Tables_in_calrobert_db1] => connects ) ;Log of all connections to the Portl1 application (not yet used) Array ( [Tables_in_calrobert_db1] => const1 ) ;System constants such as public keys for encrypted+signed SOAP messages Array ( [Tables_in_calrobert_db1] => missing1 ) ;List of missing-word "Turing" tests for proving you're not a spambot Array ( [Tables_in_calrobert_db1] => sessions2 ) ;All login sessions, showing userID, time started, NULL or time ended Array ( [Tables_in_calrobert_db1] => turingip1 ) ;Cross-reference for user currently working on a Turing question The UserID in table accounts5 will be referenced in table surinvest.
Note that between a user's login and logout, while that user's session is active hence the server knows which user is making each service request, each script-run is timed, and rounded up to the next integer millisecond, and the user's account balance is decremented by that amount as the last step in the script-run.
Now back to brand-new design-brainstorming: First some use cases: User has logged in, and has used Turing tests to accumulate enough labor-time to qualify for investing in surveys. The main menu at this point shows a menu item for surveys. The user clicks on that menu item. The system now shows a gross count of surveys and investments, then offers the user a view of the primary mmeta-survey, the survey-of-surveys, either sorted per that user's existing investments, or sorted per system-wide investments. Also the user is offered a view of *only* new surveys the user hasn't yet seen, chronologically by time of creation. Eventually when there are a large number of surveys, a search would also be available to use keywords to try to find surveys or topics of surveys of interest regadless of investment.
Once the user has a list of surveys on-screen, the use will have an option of going into any particular survey to see the items sorted per that user's investment, or sorted per total investment, or just the items the user hasn't yet seen sorted chronologically by creation time.
Once the user has selected an item within a survey, the user may change his/her investment, moving any desired number of milliseconds from that user's main account into the investment account for that survey-item, provided that the user's account balance never drops below ten seconds (ten thousand milliseconds). Or the user may move funds *out* of the survey item back into the user's main account.
As an alternative to selecting one of the existing items to invest in, the user may suggest a new item to be added to the same survey. That item will be immediately visible to that one user, but won't be available for other users to view until I personally look at it to make sure it's a valid item for that survey and to censor it for obscene or otherwise abusive or illegal language and possibly to re-word it to make it more easily understandable. The user who submitted it won't be able to invest in it until after I've approved it as-is or re-written it and approved the re-write. No other user will even be able to *see* it until it's approved.
From time to time in background (or whenever I feel like manually copying the report) I'll copy the master list of surveys, sorted by total investment (trimmed to just the ten or twenty most invested-in), and copy the items in each survey, against sorted by total investment (and again trimmed to just the most invested-in) to a public-accessible Web site, to act as public information as well as an advertisement for NewEco.
And yes of course, my own system account will be making investments right along with regular users, in my case making small investments to promote features I believe will be useful for bootstrapping the system as well as all features I have a good idea how to implement. But I won't be perverting the surveys by making major investments. The surveys will reflect the desires of the many users, not predominately my sysadmin desires.
From my *personal* account, however, I'll be investing just like any other user, to promote my *own* benefit by use of the system with the new features implemented.
Note that the major use I'll make of funds that go into the system account will not be biassing surveys. Rather I'll be using those funds to post RFBs (Requests For Bids) to pay people to work for me, such as writing PHP/MySQL code. So why would anybody want to work for me, and earn credit on my system, that can't be converted to cash (at present anyway)? Maybe for the "good feel" of working on a public-benefit system. But also since the funds earned can be invested in surveys, my employees get to affect the public survey results that will be published from time to time. And later when other features are added t the system, the use can withdraw funds from the surveys to spend them on something more valuable to that user. (Yes, the surveys are somewhat like a bank account where you can deposit and withdraw funds at any time, except instead of getting interest on investment, your funds influence something so long as they remain deposited. And since your investment in the features-to-implement survey will influence what features I work on most actively, you will get tangeable benefit from your investment, the benefit of getting me to perform free software implementation of your favorite features for NewEco.)
So why am I posting here? To solicit your help in finalizing the design of tables and use cases before I start writing PHP code to implement the design. I need "thinkers", even those who can't write a line of code themselves, but who can proofread my design, think about subtle long-term issues, think of the grand purpose of NewEco and these new surveys, and suggest improvements in design. I also need unemployed software programmers who have PHP and/or MySQL experience or who would like on-the-job training to learn such skills, to help write some of the actual code, so that I don't have to write every line of code myself. I could also use people with skills in the middle, to help with the top-down analysis of software needed to implement the design, before it gets down to the level of detail of functions that need to be coded.
> So why am I posting here? To solicit your help in finalizing the > design of tables and use cases before I start writing PHP code to > implement the design. I need "thinkers", even those who can't write > a line of code themselves, but who can proofread my design, think > about subtle long-term issues, think of the grand purpose of NewEco > and these new surveys, and suggest improvements in design. I also > need unemployed software programmers who have PHP and/or MySQL > experience or who would like on-the-job training to learn such > skills, to help write some of the actual code, so that I don't have > to write every line of code myself. I could also use people with > skills in the middle, to help with the top-down analysis of > software needed to implement the design, before it gets down to the > level of detail of functions that need to be coded.
None of this has anything to do with PHP. And you're asking for people to donate their time to your money-making project? If you want help, I suggest you hire someone, just like the rest of us do.
-- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. jstuck...@attglobal.net ==================
>Here's a copy of what I said there about my NewEco surveys:
You seem to have a strange definition of a "survey". Assuming you're not talking about land surveys, I define a survey as a set of questions asked of a bunch of people to determine opinion about something.
People are overloaded with such surveys, to the point that there are not enough hours in a day to answer them all, so you generally have to bribe people, minimally with "a chance to win", or better with cash, to get people to answer them. Many (most?) surveys are sales pitches in disguise, and are often considered SPAM. A survey is not something people "invest" in. The SEC might be very interested in surveys that people are asked to invest in, even in imaginary currencies. Other agencies might be more interested if the term "invest" turned out to really mean "wager". State lotteries hate competition.
You have one or more surveys, which each consist of one or more questions, which often have two or more multiple-choice answers, or sometimes free-form answers. A survey will have zero or more user responses, which consist of the survey being answered, perhaps user identification, and a set of answers (including a possible no-answer answer) to the questions asked. You might have a varying number of votes used on a survey (or on individual questions) if users get to decide where to spend voting credits.
The above paragraph might have some clues as to the appropriate table structure for surveys.
It is generally considered very bad form to have a database column consisting of the name of a database table. Usually the solution to this is to take all of the tables that might be named here, put them in one big table, then add a column with the former "table name" (or, for efficiency, use an integer ID instead of the name) in it. The added "table name" column probably should be added as the first component of any index (particularly unique indexes).
I find it strange that you are building in an incentive for the system implementor to make the system slower and therefore earn more currency back. Remember, script run time can be dominated by database locks, which aren't the specific user's fault and can greatly vary between separate accesses to the same script.
>My current idea for design is 3 tables: >- List of surveys >- List of items in surveys >- List of investments by users in items in surveys
Assuming for the moment you have a Presidential Election Survey, the List of surveys would have an item for "Presidential Election Survey", an item (perhaps the only one) in a survey would be "Who would you vote for if the Presidential Election were held today?", and perhaps one user spent 3 quatloos in favor of the election, which would show up in the investment table.
See something missing? Usually a user would select a candidate, like Obama or McCain, or vote For or Against a proposition, and the list of answers is often (but not always) associated with the question. For this survey if done before the primaries, you'd probably want a way to add (non-obscene) write-in candidates as the political landscape changes. Palin's name wasn't mentioned at all early in the campaign.
> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> > None of this has anything to do with PHP.
Most of this new system (and *all* the code so-far written) is PHP. How does this not have anything to with PHP?? Are you asleep at the keyboard, just not thinking before you post?
> And you're asking for people to donate their time to your > money-making project?
If you read the entire document at http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco, and somehow you got the idea this was a money-making project, then my writing skill must be far worse than atrocious, because you've gotten a totally wrong idea of my plan. I would *really* appreciate if you'd go back through that Web page and cite exactly where I said something that gave you the mistaken idea that this will be a money-making project. Once I see how what I wrote gave you a mistaken impression, then I will know which text needs re-writing to communicate better.
> If you want help, I suggest you hire someone, just like the rest > of us do.
People who have lots of money already, either by family inheritance or by good luck with business or lottery, can do several things that nobody else can do: - Start a new business by purchasing all equipment and supplies and leasing property using cash, then sustain employee pay and expenses from cash reserves until the business starts turning a profit on a regular basis. - Pay cash for purchases of products and services, either to retail stores or mail-order companies, or directly to contractors or casual employees (but the IRS has outlawed the latter for any wage totalling one dollar or more per job, so this has to be done "under the table" i.e. illegally). - Hire a private servant such as valet or secretary. - Invest in markets, such as stock shares, commodity futures, rare metals. - Loan money to others wishing to start small businesses, in return for promise of payback with interest.
I'm not one of those fortunate people who is wealthy enough to hire people. Are you one of those, as you seem to be bragging there, projecting your good fortune and ability to hire people as if *everyone* were so well off financially as to be able to hire people? Just because *you* are rich enough to just hire people to work for you any time you feel like it, doesn't mean the rest of us are so rich. The majority of us who don't have huge cash reserves, and in particular the 20% of USA residents who are unable to find a paying job during this recession, really don't like your arrogant attitude as if we could just go out to hire somebody any time we feel like hiring somebody.
Put up or shut up. Show me exactly where I wrote something that gave you the absurd idea that I'm trying to build a money-making enterprise, or post a public retraction and apology. You've been posting under your real name, and you can be found by a process server through your attglobal customer status, and you are financially very very well off, enough so that you have money to hire people any time you feel like hiring anyone, so well off that you can't imagine there is anybody without such large archive of money, so you *can* be sued for libel if you persist in libeling me.
> From: gordonb.6n...@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) > You seem to have a strange definition of a "survey". Assuming > you're not talking about land surveys, I define a survey as a set > of questions asked of a bunch of people to determine opinion > about something.
Perhaps "poll" would be a better term for what I'm planning. Like there's an election for President, and you conduct a poll just to find out how people are planning to vote. You don't bring in any other questions, just all candidates for that *one* office.
When you do a survey on people's opinions about something, and go door to door trying to find somebody willing to answer your survey, it would be silly to go to all that trouble but then ask just one question. So a door-to-door poll usually has more than one question, hence your idea what the term "survey" means. But over the InterNet, where people choose which question to answer, and then select a pre-loaded response or fill in a blank to create a brand-new response, there's no major overhead in going into and out from a survey question, so there's no reason to lump several different (but hopefully related) questions into a single survey and require the user to answer *all* of them before exiting the survey.
Now if my new feature becomes very popular, and there thousands of questions simultaneously available, I'll surely have them organized into topic areas, whereby the user can select a topic, see the questions in that topic, the choose which questions within that topic to answer and which to pass on. Such a topic of questions would more like what you envision as a "survey". Sorry for my confusing terminology. But I'm glad I got some good feedback from you before I borrowed tens of thousdands of dollars to put an ad on a television network during prime time only to realize later that I confused everyone with faulty terminology and thereby wasted my borrowed money.
> People are overloaded with such surveys, to the point that there > are not enough hours in a day to answer them all, so you > generally have to bribe people, minimally with "a chance to win", > or better with cash, to get people to answer them.
That's if you have been hired by a political candidate or a company etc. to conduct a survey on a topic chosen by that candidate or company, and you need to find ten thousand people before Monday to answer it. You need to bribe most of those ten thousand people to answer your survey before your deadline to turn in your results to your employer.
But I know that people on a regular basis post their opinions on various topics to newsgroups and other discussion forums, and they post their opinions in their blogs, and they post their opinions on Twitter, and some people call radio talk shows to express their opinion about the topic of the day, going to great expense of time and long distance phone calls to call again and again until they get through then wait on hold for ten or twenty minutes until it's their turn to be on the air. And some people write or telephone their congressional or other representative, and join protest events. So I know that if people get to choose the topic, they will express their opinion without needing to be bribed.
> Many (most?) surveys are sales pitches in disguise, and are often > considered SPAM.
(Nit: SPAM with all caps is a commercial brand of lunchmeat, and use of that word for any other purpose is a trademark violation. Don't let Hormel catch you doing that again! See the WikiPedia entry if you don't believe me.)
Yeah. There's no way I'll be putting these survey questions in people's mailboxes, or even blasting them at my users in pop-up windows or banner ads etc. There will be one menu item that offers users to express their opinion on a question of their choice, and if they choose that item they will see menu of options, as I described in my previous posting, so it's not at all like spam, where it's IN YOUR FACE all the time.
By the way, my system *will* have a new form of commercial advertising, not initially for monetary profit, but for advocacy of my personal rants. And users *wlll* be paid (labor credits, not cash) to memorize my rants. I hope eventually some commercial advertising agency will see the value in my memorize-the-ad technique and divert some of their funds from Google's click-ads to my memorize-the-ads. Here is what will be one of my first rant ads:
_____-____ ________ beat me up more than fourty times, two times so seriously that the police called in their photographer to take pictures of my whole body to use as evidence in a criminal trial for felony battery.
_____ _______ smoked a cigarette while using paint thinner to clean up a paint spill in a paint store, then dropped the still-lit cigarette onto the paint-thinner-wet floor, causing a fire that destroyed the store and destroyed the entire rest of the city-block full of warehouses for the personal storage company "U-Store-It", destroying everything I owned except what happened to be in my car at the time.
When I had a new idea for how a computer program could teach "word problems" to math students, and told my boss ____ ____ in private, because I was too shy to bring it up in a group meeting, he pressureed me to bring up my new idea at the next group meeting, saying he'd support me in my presentation. At that next group meeting, he told the group that I had a new idea to present. I then presented my idea to the group. Then he immediately humiliated me in front of our entire group by telling me point blank right out loud in front of everyone that the only reason I put forward that idea was for self-agrandizement.
> A survey is not something people "invest" in.
Tell that to the professional lobbyists who "invest" in ownership of the way our representatives vote in Congress. If my surveys become well respected as a fair (impartial) expression of how people feel on various issues they care about enough to spend a few extra seconds of labor to express their interests (the time to perform labor to earn the labor credits to invest, plus the time to run through the survey part of my system to transfer those credits into a particular answer to a particular survey question), a lot more impartial than some other survey methods because it's labor rather than money that determines how much weight each person will get, so everyone gets a fair shot to spend the time and thus get the vote, and consequently our representatives in Congress start to watch my surveys as one additional source of impartial advice for how they might vote on issues people really care about, then people will become very eager to express their opinion in my surveys, and consequently will spend a lot more time earning labor credits to apply to my surveys, thus contributing a lot more labor to my cooperative system. If not, if my surveys never become so very popular and respected by the media and our representatives, then my surveys will remain just a curious diversion, except insofar as the one survey about what features to implement in NewEco will be somewhat valuable.
> The SEC might be very interested in surveys that people are asked > to invest in, even in imaginary currencies.
Since I never promise, and never deliver, any financial return on investment, not even return in the form of more labor credits out than originally invested, my surveys are in no way like a financial investment system. They are more like "invest in the future by joining the Sierra Club, get to vote on issues that affect our environment, only paying members may vote on Sierra Club policy", except I don't ask people to keep paying to maintain membership, and the money invested is there any time the person wants to take it back out, and it's the total in the account rather than dues paid this last month that determine voting weight. So it's really more analagous to "put this sign on your front yard if you like a particular policy, and so long as it stays up you will be continuing to influence policy by people seeing your sign, and you may take down the sign any time you want, and re-paint the sign for something else, ore even use the wood for construction of a doghouse if you want". So basically my "surveys" are a cooperative billboard system. The more labor people invest in a particular billboard, the larger that billboard is, and if no more money is put in the billboard stays the same size indefinitely, and if people take money out the billboard shrinks, and if *all* investment is removed the billboad dissappears.
I think the SEC would be very embarrassed if they made the mistake of accusing a cooperative billboard as some kind of money scam.
> Other agencies might be more interested if the term "invest" > turned out to really mean "wager".
I absolutely will *not* set up any kind of lottery, based on random numbers or pseudo-random numbers or chaotic events etc., to give some people more back than others for equal investments. Everyone who invests (deposits in a bank-like thingy) gets equal effect per equal deposit, so long as the invested labor remains on deposit.
> State lotteries hate competition.
Yeah. Those lotteries are gross scams, and they use dishonest tricks to convince suckers to take their chances. I wouldn't want to get my hands **DIRTY** by stooping to anything remotely like state lotteries.
> You have one or more surveys, which each consist of one or more > questions,
No, sorry for confusing terminology, hopefully resolved at the top of this response. I have two or more surveys (starting with the two I listed already), each of which has *ONE* (1) question. Put another way, I have two or more survey-QUESTIONS.
> which often have two or more multiple-choice answers,
Correct.
> or sometimes free-form answers.
*AND* *always* a blank space to add a new answer to the multiple-choice options available to everyone who looks at this question in the future.
With a pre-printed survey form, you need to decide in
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote: >> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> >> None of this has anything to do with PHP.
> Most of this new system (and *all* the code so-far written) is PHP. > How does this not have anything to with PHP?? > Are you asleep at the keyboard, just not thinking before you post?
What is your PHP question? I don't see any. In fact, the only thing I see related to PHP is a vague reference to the fact you're going to use it.
NOTHING in your post is PHP specific.
>> And you're asking for people to donate their time to your >> money-making project?
> If you read the entire document at http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco, and > somehow you got the idea this was a money-making project, then my > writing skill must be far worse than atrocious, because you've > gotten a totally wrong idea of my plan. I would *really* appreciate > if you'd go back through that Web page and cite exactly where I > said something that gave you the mistaken idea that this will be a > money-making project. Once I see how what I wrote gave you a > mistaken impression, then I will know which text needs re-writing > to communicate better.
>> If you want help, I suggest you hire someone, just like the rest >> of us do.
> People who have lots of money already, either by family > inheritance or by good luck with business or lottery, can do > several things that nobody else can do: > - Start a new business by purchasing all equipment and > supplies and leasing property using cash, then sustain > employee pay and expenses from cash reserves until the > business starts turning a profit on a regular basis. > - Pay cash for purchases of products and services, either to > retail stores or mail-order companies, or directly to > contractors or casual employees (but the IRS has outlawed > the latter for any wage totalling one dollar or more per > job, so this has to be done "under the table" i.e. illegally). > - Hire a private servant such as valet or secretary. > - Invest in markets, such as stock shares, commodity futures, rare metals. > - Loan money to others wishing to start small businesses, in > return for promise of payback with interest.
> I'm not one of those fortunate people who is wealthy enough to hire > people. Are you one of those, as you seem to be bragging there, > projecting your good fortune and ability to hire people as if > *everyone* were so well off financially as to be able to hire > people? Just because *you* are rich enough to just hire people to > work for you any time you feel like it, doesn't mean the rest of us > are so rich. The majority of us who don't have huge cash reserves, > and in particular the 20% of USA residents who are unable to find a > paying job during this recession, really don't like your arrogant > attitude as if we could just go out to hire somebody any time we > feel like hiring somebody.
> Put up or shut up. Show me exactly where I wrote something that > gave you the absurd idea that I'm trying to build a money-making > enterprise, or post a public retraction and apology. You've been > posting under your real name, and you can be found by a process > server through your attglobal customer status, and you are > financially very very well off, enough so that you have money to > hire people any time you feel like hiring anyone, so well off that > you can't imagine there is anybody without such large archive of > money, so you *can* be sued for libel if you persist in libeling > me.
Oh, so now you're going to sue me? Go ahead, idiot, and try it. I'll end up owning almost everything you have for your false lawsuit.
Now we know what you really are. A self-serving crook.
-- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. jstuck...@attglobal.net ==================
> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> > What is your PHP question? I don't see any.
After the contract system in NewEco is implemented, my PHP questions will be asked to users of NewEco. I'll post a RFB (Request For Bids) or each such question, and some PHP expert will make a bid, how many seconds of time it'll take to answer the PHP question and submit the answer back to the server, and the lowest bidder will get the contract, and complete it within the allowed time-window, and get paid in labor credits which can be used on NewEco to purchase services from others and/or purchase computer services directly from NewEco.
In the mean time, before the PHP code to run the contract system is fully implemented, I'll do the contracts manually, but the same overall system.
> In fact, the only thing I see related to PHP is a vague reference > to the fact you're going to use it.
The OP (Original Posting) contained a link to http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco which explains all that, which I've summarized above.
> NOTHING in your post is PHP specific.
Here's a direct quote from http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco: Most urgent major NewEco tasks require low-level software tools to be developed (seeking volunteers to help with implementation of these software modules): * PHP/MySQL -- for maintaining data-store of: + user accounts, including personal profiles for job-ad filtering + archive of job ads, including value-added tagging + status of auctions (for contracts, and for value-futures of completed work) + nearly everything else that requires persistent storage Update 2009.Mar.30: None of the free PHP/MySQL Web sites that I've discovered are working in any suitable way, and I'm desperately in need of such a site that actually works. Update 2009.Apr.18: I've finally found five free PHP/MySQL Web sites which seem to work for the most basic tasks I've tried so-far: List databases, List tables, create new table.
Here's another excerpt from http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco: * PHP-BigIntegerPwrMod (for public-key communication between all components) Update 2009.Mar.07: symcbean showed me a built-in PHP module called "BC", which I tried and found to work satisfactorily. I'll need to convert back and forth between byte-vectors and decimal-digit-strings, but that won't be too difficult using BC to do the arithmetic needed for conversion.
Furthermore, the software located via the link http://TinyURL.Com/Portl1 is currently *entirely* written in PHP, for ordinary data-processing and for submitting MySQL tasks and getting back result-sets.
If you had clicked on that link in my OP, and then done a keyword search for "PHP" within that Web page, you could have answered your own question.
> So? You want help, hire it.
That's exactly what I'm doing, except that I have no $money$, so I'm offering to pay labor-credits for work performed, and then these labor-credits can be used to purchase direct services from NewEco (as soon as enough PHP code has been written to provide the services) and to hire other users (as soon as enough PHP code has been written to implement the contract system).
> Oh, so now you're going to sue me?
Sure, you keep piling on the libelous remarks, accusing me of using NewEco as a front for getting $money$ from users, despite the fact that no user will *ever* need to pay any money into NewEco, users will need to perform *labor* instead to pay for their usage of NewEco. Ten seconds of human labor pays for ten thousand milliseconds of PHP usage which typically is about a hundred to a thousand separate script-runs. You've spent more than ten seconds composing your libel against me. You could have done better spending your ten seconds working for NewEco instead of attacking it.
> Go ahead, idiot, and try it.
I'm not an idiot. My Mensa IQ test shows my IQ to be in the top 1%, which qualifies as not-idiot, not-stupid, not-average, not-mediocre, not sub-genius but *full*genius*. And my record of inventions (see another newsgrour article a couple weeks ago) shows this genius is not just passive stuff like you might see at Mensa meetings or on "Big Bang Theory" during Klingon Boggle games, but a truly valuable *creative*/*inventive* genius.
> I'll end up owning almost everything you have for your false > lawsuit.
Oh I would love you to own everything I currently own, including $60,000 of credit card debt. You may have my credit-card debt any time you want it. Just fill out the paperwork to take over my debts. Go ahead. I dare you.
> Now we know what you really are. A self-serving crook.
Now you've crossed the line from probable-libel to uncontrovertable libel.
Google search: Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. ICCA Consultant Member Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. 9920 Brixton Lane Bethesda, MD 20817 Phone: 301-469-6604 Email: Contact Form As soon as I find somebody in Maryland willing to file legal papers in Maryland on my behalf, for libel lawsuit against you, and somebody (probably the same person) to serve them on you, be expecting a knock on your door, and when you open the door somebody thrusts a packet of papers at you and says "you're served" and walks away, and if you don't show up in court as ordered to show cause why a summary judgement of libel against you shouldn't be issued, a default judgement will indeed be issued. Next comes the fun part, attachment of your wages, by whatever collection agency I sell the judgement to, perhaps Midland Credit Management, Inc. of Oaks, PA, or maybe First National Collection Bureau, Inc. of McCarran NV.
Since 1990, JDS Computer Training Corporation has provided high-quality programmer training courses to customers throughout the United States and in Asia and Europe. ...
I think I know why you feel so threatened by my attempt to build NewEco which will provide online computer-programming on-the-job training, which will put *your* company out of business. Why would any student in their right mind take out a student loan to pay cash to *your* company for training, with no definite prospect of actual employment as a result, yet the debt collectors hounding the still-unemployed fully-trained computer programmer for repayment of the loan, when they could join NewEco, get incremental training to learn computer programming, immediately put it to use, no up-front payment to NewEco needed to get the training, and they even get *paid* for all completed student assignments. Your company will be out of business within a year, and *you* will be out of a job. So you think that if you libel me enough, it will somehow discourage other people from seeing the value in NewEco, so that NewEco will never fully develop, and hence never put your company out of business by providing a better alternative for computer-programming students.
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote: >> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> >> What is your PHP question? I don't see any.
> After the contract system in NewEco is implemented, my PHP > questions will be asked to users of NewEco. I'll post a RFB > (Request For Bids) or each such question, and some PHP expert will > make a bid, how many seconds of time it'll take to answer the PHP > question and submit the answer back to the server, and the lowest > bidder will get the contract, and complete it within the allowed > time-window, and get paid in labor credits which can be used on > NewEco to purchase services from others and/or purchase computer > services directly from NewEco.
> In the mean time, before the PHP code to run the contract system is > fully implemented, I'll do the contracts manually, but the same > overall system.
>> In fact, the only thing I see related to PHP is a vague reference >> to the fact you're going to use it.
> The OP (Original Posting) contained a link to http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco > which explains all that, which I've summarized above.
>> NOTHING in your post is PHP specific.
> Here's a direct quote from http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco: > Most urgent major NewEco tasks require low-level software tools to be > developed (seeking volunteers to help with implementation of these > software modules): > * PHP/MySQL -- for maintaining data-store of: > + user accounts, including personal profiles for job-ad > filtering > + archive of job ads, including value-added tagging > + status of auctions (for contracts, and for value-futures of > completed work) > + nearly everything else that requires persistent storage > Update 2009.Mar.30: None of the free PHP/MySQL Web sites that I've > discovered are working in any suitable way, and I'm desperately in > need of such a site that actually works. > Update 2009.Apr.18: I've finally found five free PHP/MySQL Web > sites which seem to work for the most basic tasks I've tried > so-far: List databases, List tables, create new table.
> Here's another excerpt from http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco: > * PHP-BigIntegerPwrMod (for public-key communication between all > components) > Update 2009.Mar.07: symcbean showed me a built-in PHP module called > "BC", which I tried and found to work satisfactorily. I'll need to > convert back and forth between byte-vectors and > decimal-digit-strings, but that won't be too difficult using BC to > do the arithmetic needed for conversion.
> Furthermore, the software located via the link http://TinyURL.Com/Portl1 > is currently *entirely* written in PHP, for ordinary data-processing > and for submitting MySQL tasks and getting back result-sets.
> If you had clicked on that link in my OP, and then done a keyword > search for "PHP" within that Web page, you could have answered your > own question.
Yes, and nothing in there is PHP specific - other than the fact you want to use PHP.
>> So? You want help, hire it.
> That's exactly what I'm doing, except that I have no $money$, so > I'm offering to pay labor-credits for work performed, and then > these labor-credits can be used to purchase direct services from > NewEco (as soon as enough PHP code has been written to provide the > services) and to hire other users (as soon as enough PHP code has > been written to implement the contract system).
No, you're not. You're looking for some sucker to provide their time for free.
Tell me - do you work for free? Or does your employer pay you? If he pays you, why should someone work for you for free. You want help? Be prepared to pay for it.
Now that's not to say programmers (including me) don't do pro bono work. But I do it for open source projects and recognized charities I believe in. Not for someone too cheap to pay.
> Sure, you keep piling on the libelous remarks, accusing me of using > NewEco as a front for getting $money$ from users, despite the fact > that no user will *ever* need to pay any money into NewEco, users > will need to perform *labor* instead to pay for their usage of > NewEco. Ten seconds of human labor pays for ten thousand > milliseconds of PHP usage which typically is about a hundred to a > thousand separate script-runs. You've spent more than ten seconds > composing your libel against me. You could have done better > spending your ten seconds working for NewEco instead of attacking > it.
>> Go ahead, idiot, and try it.
> I'm not an idiot. My Mensa IQ test shows my IQ to be in the top 1%, > which qualifies as not-idiot, not-stupid, not-average, > not-mediocre, not sub-genius but *full*genius*. And my record of > inventions (see another newsgrour article a couple weeks ago) shows > this genius is not just passive stuff like you might see at Mensa > meetings or on "Big Bang Theory" during Klingon Boggle games, but a > truly valuable *creative*/*inventive* genius.
Whoopie! So you claim to be a genius. OK, genius, then you should have no problem designing the database and writing the code yourself. In fact, if you're so great, you should be able to absorb everything you know and do all the work in just a couple of weeks.
But then we all know that IQ tests do not measure real world ability - or real world sense. All they measure is the ability to take a test.
>> I'll end up owning almost everything you have for your false >> lawsuit.
> Oh I would love you to own everything I currently own, including > $60,000 of credit card debt. You may have my credit-card debt any > time you want it. Just fill out the paperwork to take over my > debts. Go ahead. I dare you.
>> Now we know what you really are. A self-serving crook.
> Now you've crossed the line from probable-libel to uncontrovertable libel.
> Google search: Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. > ICCA Consultant Member > Jerry Stuckle > JDS Computer Training Corp. > 9920 Brixton Lane > Bethesda, MD 20817 > Phone: 301-469-6604 > Email: Contact Form > As soon as I find somebody in Maryland willing to file legal papers > in Maryland on my behalf, for libel lawsuit against you, and > somebody (probably the same person) to serve them on you, be > expecting a knock on your door, and when you open the door somebody > thrusts a packet of papers at you and says "you're served" and > walks away, and if you don't show up in court as ordered to show > cause why a summary judgement of libel against you shouldn't be > issued, a default judgement will indeed be issued. Next comes the > fun part, attachment of your wages, by whatever collection agency I > sell the judgement to, perhaps Midland Credit Management, Inc. of > Oaks, PA, or maybe First National Collection Bureau, Inc. of > McCarran NV.
Be my guest. I'm not hard to find. And once I give the papers to my attorney, the lawsuits you'll see what a REAL lawsuit is. Good luck trying to find an attorney who will work for you pro bono. They like to get paid, also.
> Since 1990, JDS Computer Training Corporation has provided high-quality > programmer training courses to customers throughout the United States > and in Asia and Europe. ...
> I think I know why you feel so threatened by my attempt to build > NewEco which will provide online computer-programming on-the-job > training, which will put *your* company out of business. Why would > any student in their right mind take out a student loan to pay cash > to *your* company for training, with no definite prospect of actual > employment as a result, yet the debt collectors hounding the > still-unemployed fully-trained computer programmer for repayment of > the loan, when they could join NewEco, get incremental training to > learn computer programming, immediately put it to use, no up-front > payment to NewEco needed to get the training, and they even get > *paid* for all completed student assignments. Your company will be > out of business within a year, and *you* will be out of a job. So > you think that if you libel me enough, it will somehow discourage > other people from seeing the value in NewEco, so that NewEco will > never fully develop, and hence never put your company out of > business by providing a better alternative for computer-programming > students.
I'm not threatened by you or your site. They won't affect my business at all, any more than any of the thousands of similar sites have affected my business.
-- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. jstuck...@attglobal.net ==================
(snipped excerpts from http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco citing progress on using PHP to implement some core features of the system)
> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> > ... nothing in there is PHP specific - other than the fact you > want to use PHP.
And information about specific actual progress implementing specific core functions needed to make NewEco a reality. You said it had *nothing* to do with PHP. Clearly you were mistaken, or more likely, outright lying.
> > I'm offering to pay labor-credits for work performed, and then > > these labor-credits can be used to purchase direct services from > > NewEco (as soon as enough PHP code has been written to provide the > > services) and to hire other users (as soon as enough PHP code has > > been written to implement the contract system). > No, you're not.
So at that point you're flat-out calling me a liar, claiming that I have no intention of setting up a system whereby people can do work for me and thereby earn labor credits that can later be spent in the two ways I cite there?
> You're looking for some sucker to provide their time for free.
Nope, they trade their labor for credits that can pay for somebody else's labor later. That's the same as if they got paid $money$ and later used that $money$ to purchase labor from others, except that $money$ is dependent on exchange rates and a blind trust that inflation won't wipe out the value of the money, that these pieces of paper will actually be worth something later, whereas my labor credits are fixed for all time as so many seconds of human labor, so they can't possibly suffer from inflation.
> Tell me - do you work for free?
Yes, but I'd rather not, I'd much rather somebody pay me for my work. NewEco is an attempt to get *something* in return for my work, not $money$, because almost nobody seems to have any of it nowadays, and those few who *do* have money haven't seen fit to hire me to work for them, but labor exchange. Instead of getting people to pay me money for my work, I hope to get people to perform labor for me in exchange for my labor I perform. Direct barter is unlikely to work, because the people who directly need *my* particular skills aren't the same people who can provide labor I specifically need, hence the labor credits as a means of common exchange. I already did the preliminary set-up work, and will do some more shortly, and then others will perform work for my system, thereby paying me back for my investment in labor building the preliminary system. Most of the work these people do will result in their being paid labor credits, only a small amount will be consumed in the overhead of operating the system itself. These labor credits will be used mostly to hire others to do work those early workers want done, so the labor credits will pass from hand to hand, until it arrives in the hand of somebody who wants to hire **me** to do some work *I* am good at doing.
> Or does your employer pay you?
Nope.
> If he pays you,
False antecedent, making the rest of what you say moot:
> why should someone work for you for free.
That's also moot because I have no intention of having people work for me and not get paid for their work. If they do labor by contract bid, where they say they can complete the contract in 3 minutes, and in fact they complete it in 3 minutes, then they get paid 3 minutes of labor credits, which they will be able to spend almost like real $money$ to purchase services from my system or pay other users to work directly for them through my system that merely provides a work+pay framework.
> You want help? Be prepared to pay for it.
That's precisely what I intend to do. Once my system is fully operational, there'll be no more of posting questions to newsgroups asking for volunteers to provide free help by posting the help as a follow-up in the newsgroup. Instead I'll direct people to NewEco where whoever provides the answer to my question will get *paid* through my system, labor-credits to spend later through my system.
> Now that's not to say programmers (including me) don't do pro > bono work.
Perhaps you will provide pro bono work for NewEco? It's a truly worthwhile idea that you really ought to contribute to. But I'm only suggesting that because you seem to be bragging about how you sometimes do pro bono work. Normally I'd ask you to work through my system and get paid (in labor credits) for all your work. No pro bono work needed in NewEco. But if you want to offer pro bono work, because you seem to like bragging about doing it, I won't turn down your offer.
> But I do it for open source projects
Eventually the code I've already written, and will write soon, to implement NewEco may become open source. In addition, if I pay for code that people wrote to help build functionality of NewEco, I have no objection to the coders leaking that code out to third parties, posting as open source, etc.
> and recognized charities I believe in.
Since NewEco will eventually provide minimum-wage jobs to everyone who wants to work and has any useful skills, even skills that fall outside the traditional job market, you may consider NewEco to be a form of charity. If you believe, as I do, that everyone who wants to work for pay should be entitled to a paying job, that while free money shouldn't be an entitlement, a paying *job*, a work-for-pay situation, *should* be an entitlement, then you should "believe in" NewEco and provide your personal labor, and possibly some $cash$ funds, to make it a reality. I don't ask you pay *me* cash for *my* labor. Rather I ask that you pvovide cash that *other* users of my system can receive by "cashing in" their labor credits. But first, you need to pay the cost of various professional help that NewEco needs before it can legally deal with money passing through to users. In particular you need to pay for the overhead involved in verifying that people are legal residents of the USA and that they are legally entitled to work for pay and that they are not wanted by the law on some outstanding warrant, and to verify their taxpayer ID number so that they can be legally paid and so that the IRS can receive accurate reports of their wages and so that legally mandated withholding can be done on their conversions from labor credits to $pay$.
> Not for someone too cheap to pay.
When you say "too cheap", do you refer to my lack of funds to pay, or some hypothetical situation in which I had lots of money but still refused to pay for people to work for me?
Believe me, if I had all my debts paid off, and an extra million dollars, I'd surely use half of that million dollars to hire people to do things for me that I've been unable to get done so-far because of no funds to hire these people. Perhaps your company can purchase one of my major inventions and that will be enough funds to pay off my debts and give me extra funds to hire people to work for me?
> So you claim to be a genius.
Sure. Do you want to fly from Maryland to California so that I can show you the physical certificate I got from Mensa which told me my raw score and percentile rank on the two IQ tests I took under their supervision?
> OK, genius, then you should have no problem designing the > database and writing the code yourself.
I only started writing PHP/MySQL code a few months ago. Although I am very bright, still I realize that my very first attempts no matter how brilliant might possibly benefit from a second bright mind helping me with the design. In fact, Gordon Burditt has already given me valuable feedback on my first-draft design plus an actual idea how to do something related to it. But mostly what he posted indicates that my first-draft design of the three new tables needed for surveys was basically on-track, just the proposed names for them, and my explanations of them, were somewhat confusing to readers, so I'll fix that aspect of my design and post an updated second-draft design which I hope will be acceptable to him and to anyone else looking at my design documents.
> In fact, if you're so great, you should be able to absorb > everything you know and do all the work in just a couple of weeks.
Now you're surely jesting. The bootstrapping to the point where other programmers can then do work over the system to improve the system itself and thereby get paid for their work, I might indeed finish in a couple more weeks, but the whole NewEco concept is *immense* and will take several man-years to fully complete. With fifty employees, each earning labor credits, maybe we can together complete the whole project in three months.
> But then we all know that IQ tests do not measure real world > ability - or real world sense. All they measure is the ability > to take a test.
You are only half right. I really liked the question where there was a paragraph with five missing words, and for each missing word there were five multiple-choices, and *every* one of the multiple choices fit in just fine, so locally any answer whatsoever could be "correct", but in fact there was only one combination out of the 5^5=3125 combinations that made the paragraph as a whole make sense. Answering that type of question required true thinking ability, a lot more than just the ability to "take a test". On that test, the test with those truly thinking-required questions, I scored over 150 IQ.
I agree a lot of the *other* types of questions on IQ tests require more the ability to psyche out the test itself rather than demonstrate true thinking ability. So that's where you're half right.
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote: > (snipped excerpts from http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco citing progress on > using PHP to implement some core features of the system) >> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> >> ... nothing in there is PHP specific - other than the fact you >> want to use PHP.
> And information about specific actual progress implementing > specific core functions needed to make NewEco a reality. You said > it had *nothing* to do with PHP. Clearly you were mistaken, or more > likely, outright lying.
Nope. I said nothing in your post had anything to do with PHP. But you're a genius - I'm surprised you don't understand that.
>>> I'm offering to pay labor-credits for work performed, and then >>> these labor-credits can be used to purchase direct services from >>> NewEco (as soon as enough PHP code has been written to provide the >>> services) and to hire other users (as soon as enough PHP code has >>> been written to implement the contract system).
>> No, you're not.
> So at that point you're flat-out calling me a liar, claiming that I > have no intention of setting up a system whereby people can do work > for me and thereby earn labor credits that can later be spent in > the two ways I cite there?
I never said anything of the sort. I said you are looking for free help. Which is exactly what you want.
>> You're looking for some sucker to provide their time for free.
> Nope, they trade their labor for credits that can pay for somebody > else's labor later. That's the same as if they got paid $money$ and > later used that $money$ to purchase labor from others, except that > $money$ is dependent on exchange rates and a blind trust that > inflation won't wipe out the value of the money, that these pieces > of paper will actually be worth something later, whereas my labor > credits are fixed for all time as so many seconds of human labor, > so they can't possibly suffer from inflation.
Yea, right. And let's see your reserve of that labor. Oh, wait. You don't have one, do you? So you're making promises you can't keep.
> Yes, but I'd rather not, I'd much rather somebody pay me for my > work. NewEco is an attempt to get *something* in return for my > work, not $money$, because almost nobody seems to have any of it > nowadays, and those few who *do* have money haven't seen fit to > hire me to work for them, but labor exchange. Instead of getting > people to pay me money for my work, I hope to get people to perform > labor for me in exchange for my labor I perform. Direct barter is > unlikely to work, because the people who directly need *my* > particular skills aren't the same people who can provide labor I > specifically need, hence the labor credits as a means of common > exchange. I already did the preliminary set-up work, and will do > some more shortly, and then others will perform work for my system, > thereby paying me back for my investment in labor building the > preliminary system. Most of the work these people do will result in > their being paid labor credits, only a small amount will be > consumed in the overhead of operating the system itself. These > labor credits will be used mostly to hire others to do work those > early workers want done, so the labor credits will pass from hand > to hand, until it arrives in the hand of somebody who wants to hire > **me** to do some work *I* am good at doing.
People have lots of money. You just need to have something worth payinf for - which clearly you don't.
>> Or does your employer pay you?
> Nope.
So you're an unemployed genius doesn't have anything that anyone is willing to pay for. So you're trying to get people to work for free for the promise of some "labor credits" you don't have and can't be sure of supplying.
>> If he pays you,
> False antecedent, making the rest of what you say moot:
>> why should someone work for you for free.
> That's also moot because I have no intention of having people work > for me and not get paid for their work. If they do labor by > contract bid, where they say they can complete the contract in 3 > minutes, and in fact they complete it in 3 minutes, then they get > paid 3 minutes of labor credits, which they will be able to spend > almost like real $money$ to purchase services from my system or pay > other users to work directly for them through my system that merely > provides a work+pay framework.
Why would I need someone else's labor? Are you going to remodel my house for me, for instance?
Oh, I almost forgot. You really don't have any "labor credits" - so your point is moot.
>> You want help? Be prepared to pay for it.
> That's precisely what I intend to do. Once my system is fully > operational, there'll be no more of posting questions to newsgroups > asking for volunteers to provide free help by posting the help as a > follow-up in the newsgroup. Instead I'll direct people to NewEco > where whoever provides the answer to my question will get *paid* > through my system, labor-credits to spend later through my system.
Then let's see the cash. Oh, I forgot. You're not actually paying anyone anything.
>> Now that's not to say programmers (including me) don't do pro >> bono work.
> Perhaps you will provide pro bono work for NewEco? It's a truly > worthwhile idea that you really ought to contribute to. But I'm > only suggesting that because you seem to be bragging about how you > sometimes do pro bono work. Normally I'd ask you to work through my > system and get paid (in labor credits) for all your work. No pro > bono work needed in NewEco. But if you want to offer pro bono work, > because you seem to like bragging about doing it, I won't turn down > your offer.
Nope. I said for RECOGNIZED CHARITIES WHICH I SUPPORT. You are not a charity, recognized or not. And I do not support you.
But don't worry - I wouldn't work for you for money, either. And if I did, it would be cash in advance.
>> But I do it for open source projects
> Eventually the code I've already written, and will write soon, to > implement NewEco may become open source. In addition, if I pay for > code that people wrote to help build functionality of NewEco, I > have no objection to the coders leaking that code out to third > parties, posting as open source, etc.
So? Again - promises which probably will not be kept. Open source projects are typically open source from the beginning - not added later.
> Since NewEco will eventually provide minimum-wage jobs to everyone > who wants to work and has any useful skills, even skills that fall > outside the traditional job market, you may consider NewEco to be a > form of charity. If you believe, as I do, that everyone who wants > to work for pay should be entitled to a paying job, that while free > money shouldn't be an entitlement, a paying *job*, a work-for-pay > situation, *should* be an entitlement, then you should "believe in" > NewEco and provide your personal labor, and possibly some $cash$ > funds, to make it a reality. I don't ask you pay *me* cash for *my* > labor. Rather I ask that you pvovide cash that *other* users of my > system can receive by "cashing in" their labor credits. But first, > you need to pay the cost of various professional help that NewEco > needs before it can legally deal with money passing through to > users. In particular you need to pay for the overhead involved in > verifying that people are legal residents of the USA and that they > are legally entitled to work for pay and that they are not wanted > by the law on some outstanding warrant, and to verify their > taxpayer ID number so that they can be legally paid and so that the > IRS can receive accurate reports of their wages and so that legally > mandated withholding can be done on their conversions from labor > credits to $pay$.
Minimum wage? I haven't gotten minimum wage since the 1960's. And it is not a charity - by any definition except yours.
>> Not for someone too cheap to pay.
> When you say "too cheap", do you refer to my lack of funds to pay, > or some hypothetical situation in which I had lots of money but > still refused to pay for people to work for me?
If your project is worth it, then you can raise the money. You're a genius, I'm sure you can get a loan. Or find a venture capitalist willing to invest.
> Believe me, if I had all my debts paid off, and an extra million > dollars, I'd surely use half of that million dollars to hire people > to do things for me that I've been unable to get done so-far > because of no funds to hire these people. Perhaps your company can > purchase one of my major inventions and that will be enough funds > to pay off my debts and give me extra funds to hire people to work > for me?
Then I suggest you get a real job.
>> So you claim to be a genius.
> Sure. Do you want to fly from Maryland to California so that I can > show you the physical certificate I got from Mensa which told me my > raw score and percentile rank on the two IQ tests I took under > their supervision?
Nope. I really don't care. And all that proves is that you do well on tests.
>> OK, genius, then you should have no problem designing the >> database and writing the code yourself.
> I only started writing PHP/MySQL code a few months ago. Although I > am very bright, still I realize that my very first attempts no > matter how brilliant might possibly benefit from a second bright > mind helping me with the design. In fact, Gordon Burditt has > already given me valuable feedback on my first-draft design plus an > actual idea how to do something related to it. But mostly what he > posted indicates that my first-draft design of the three new tables > needed for surveys was basically on-track, just the proposed names > for them, and my
Update: Last night I copied the fragments of first-draft plans for surveys/polls (within NewEco) into one Web page, and corrected some terms that were confusing. I'll be maintaining this Web page from time to time as I develop the code to implement surveys/polls, instead of posting further updates here, so anyone curious how the project is going or wishing to brainstorm with me, please look here: http://TinyURL.Com/EcoSur
> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> > I said you are looking for free help.
And that was not correct. I'm looking to trade help. I help my users, they help me.
> Which is exactly what you want.
Nope, you're wrong again.
> And let's see your reserve of that labor.
If you can use some extra labor, I'm available for the kinds of stuff I can do, and eventually when I have lots of users their labor will be available too. So if you can use some help, say what kind of help you can use. If you can't use any help, then NewEco is of no use to you personally, and so your incessant posting on this topic is a waste of your time and energy.
> Oh, wait. You don't have one, do you?
I do. You are wrong again.
> So you're making promises you can't keep.
You are wrong again.
> The legal definition of that is FRAUD.
Even if your false claims were true, it wouldn't qualify as fraud because I'm not asking anyone for money. So you're doubly wrong, that your premise is wrong, and even your analysis from that wrong premise is wrong.
> People have lots of money.
Name one person who has lots of money and would like some computer-programming WebServer application done for them, and state what kind of application they'd like.
> You just need to have something worth payinf for
There's a difference between sale of already-created product, where I need to already have it fully created, ready for sale, and sale of future labor to create product that doesn't yet exist. At the moment, I'm in the latter category, having my labor available if anyone wants something new created. I can't afford to spend a lot of effort building something custom for a non-existant customer in the hopes I can someday find somebody to buy it from me as-is. I'll stick to offering my services for future products, plus NewEco which is a framework for lubricating the process of hiring people even if you don't have any money in advance to pay them, providing you have your own *labor* to put in lieu of money.
> - which clearly you don't.
Actually there is a lot of software I've already written, but I don't know any way to find people who would like to buy it, so it would be a waste of my time and energy to fret over selling it to somebody.
For example, perhaps you know somebody who would like to purchase my spam-filtering+reporting system, which runs in CMUCL, which detects new e-mail that's arrived, automatically scans it to see whether it's spam or not, asks user for confirmation if not sure, if not spam then bleeps user's terminal with summary of it, if spam then checks if it already knows where to complain about it, if not automatically checks WHOIS server to get complaint addresses, automatically verifies any address not previously verified, if no valid address then goes upstream to complain there instead, and at long last when at least one appropriate spam-complaint address is known it builds a formal complaint letter and e-mails it automatically to the known-working spam-complaint address. In the process of all this, it maintains a local database of known verified spam-complaint addresses for all CIDRs which have ever sent spam here, and also maintains a local database of traceroute information, where any particular item is re-computed whenever needed but several weeks out of date, and it maintains a white-list of penpals and other correspondents who are not sending spam.
> So you're an unemployed genius doesn't have anything that anyone > is willing to pay for.
I have no idea. I don't know how to find *everyone* in the whole world who would like to purchase either my already-completed software or my services to produce new software. I have no money to purchase prime-time advertisements on television networks, much less SuperBowl ads.
> So you're trying to get people to work for free
Nope. I offer equal exchange of labor-time.
You must have already spent at least two minutes to compose each of the five nasty messages you've posted to attack me. If you had spent those same ten minutes working for NewEco, you'd have ten minutes of labor credits. As it is now, you have nada for all your wasted time.
> for the promise of some "labor credits" you don't have and can't > be sure of supplying.
http://TinyURL.Com/Portl1 (the portal for NewEco) already provides labor credits, already supplied, as of several weeks ago, actually a couple months ago. You could *already* have labor credits, if you had connected to Portl1 and created an account and answered a ten-second Turing question, or two 5-second Turing questions, or a 4-second and a 6-second Turing question, then you'd already have the 5 seconds of labor creduts you get when you create a new account, plus the extra ten seconds of labor credits for the Turing questions, a total of fifteen seconds of labor credits. You could *really* have them already, if you didn't squander your time attacking me. Or you could have them later today if you apply for a new account right after you see this article.
Now the trick is what to *spend* those credits on. Currently a few milliseconds of credit are taken as overhead for each PHP script-run, but I don't have any *actual* services you can purchase. But as soon as surveys/polls are implemented you'll be able to invest some of your labor-credits to influence the outcome of the surveys/polls, in particular you'll be able to influence what direction NewEco takes, what new features (after surveys/polls) you'd like me to implement for you to pay (labor credits) to use/enjoy.
So I suggest you encourage me to get surveys/polls implemented, in particlar right now you should look at http://TinyURL.Com/EcoSur and offer help in cleaning up any flaws in the design if you can find any, or if you like the design then please write a proposed set of SQL statements to create those three tables, so I can review your work instead of you reviewing mine, to speed up the final design process.
Then, after it's implemented, you invest your time not in attacking me in newsgroups but in voting (with your labor-time) for which new features you'd like installed in NewEco, both ways that you can spend your labor credits to get services you'd really like to get, and ways that you can work to earn credits *other* than passing the Turing questions I have pre-loaded. Why don't you take a look at the proposed new services that I've posted for months that I'd *like* to implement if anybody shows interest, pick something that interests you, and then nominate that as an item in the "what to implement" survey/poll, and then vote for that item with your Turing-earned labor credits? If you're the only person voting, you can dominate the result of the vote, hence almost completely control what I do with NewEco. And even if somebody else votes for something else, dilluting your control over the direction of NewEco, you're such a eager beaver to destroy NewEco that surely you can muster enough labor-time to overwealm their vote and re-take control over the future direction of NewEco. Your vote in NewEco's survey/poll will have a lot more effect than your newsgroup rants.
> Why would I need someone else's labor?
For the same reason you buy most/all of your food at a grocery store instead of running your own private farm without the benefit of any public-supplied irrigation or private-supplied livestock feed or fertilizer etc., and for the same reason you bought your computer at a store instead if re-inventing computers and silicon wafer technology and trying to design all that technology from scratch and build your own silicon mining in your back yard plus all the refining and manufacturing etc. You can't do *everything* you need all by yourself without help from other people to provide you with things you can't provide yourself. Just look at how you rely on the InterNet, paying your Internet Service Provider, to let you post to newsgroups. Just try to, all by yourself, without the help of the InterNet, to somehow manage ot physically present your rants into every personal computer of anyone who follows this newsgroup. There's just no way you could post here all by yourself without the help of others to set up the infrastructure plus your ISP to provide specific access (and charge you for that service).
Everything you purchase, from food or utilities or InterNet access, involves paying part of that cost as somebody's labor. In fact, what you pay really goes only two places: - Labor involved along the pipeline from mining/farming to product; - Royalties on mining/land interests and patents and financial investments. Of the two, labor is the majority of the cost in virtually anything you purchase or lease.
> Are you going to remodel my house for me, for instance?
No, I don't have that particular skill. But perhaps eventually some "networking" service such as LinkII whichI set up in NewEco will facilitate your locating somebody in your local area who is willing to remodel your house without needing $cash$, content to receive labor credits in lieu of cash. Oh wait, you have $$cash$$ burning holes in your pockets, right? So if you want your house remodeled, why haven't you *already* hired a commercial contractor to do it for you? Why are you asking me now instead of having already gotten it done?
> Oh, I almost forgot. You really don't have any "labor credits"
You're wrong. You could have gotten up to 15 seconds total of them already, or you can later today after you read this article.
> let's see the cash.
I don't have any cash. Why do you keep asking me for something I don't have? Do you always waste your time trying to pursuade tomatoes to provide blood? If you want cash, talk to somebody who has cash, like yourself, ask yourself to pay you cash. You can probably pay yourself a million dollars cash if you break it up into chunks of reasonable size.
> Oh, I forgot. You're not actually paying anyone anything.
I'm not paying $cash$, but I'm paying labor credits. Up to 15 seconds
...
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote: >> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> >> I said you are looking for free help.
> And that was not correct. I'm looking to trade help. I help my > users, they help me.
And what do you have which will help them? Nothing.
>> Which is exactly what you want.
> Nope, you're wrong again.
Nope. I'm right.
>> And let's see your reserve of that labor.
> If you can use some extra labor, I'm available for the kinds of > stuff I can do, and eventually when I have lots of users their > labor will be available too. So if you can use some help, say what > kind of help you can use. If you can't use any help, then NewEco is > of no use to you personally, and so your incessant posting on this > topic is a waste of your time and energy.
You didn't answer my question. What is your reserve of labor?
>> Oh, wait. You don't have one, do you?
> I do. You are wrong again.
And what is your reserve of labor?
>> So you're making promises you can't keep.
> You are wrong again.
You haven't shown you can keep your promises.
>> The legal definition of that is FRAUD.
> Even if your false claims were true, it wouldn't qualify as fraud > because I'm not asking anyone for money. So you're doubly wrong, > that your premise is wrong, and even your analysis from that wrong > premise is wrong.
Fraud does not have to involve money. Check the law.
>> People have lots of money.
> Name one person who has lots of money and would like some > computer-programming WebServer application done for them, and state > what kind of application they'd like.
I don't seem to have problems finding work. Neither do several other people I know. But they something worth paying for.
>> You just need to have something worth payinf for
> There's a difference between sale of already-created product, where > I need to already have it fully created, ready for sale, and sale > of future labor to create product that doesn't yet exist. At the > moment, I'm in the latter category, having my labor available if > anyone wants something new created. I can't afford to spend a lot > of effort building something custom for a non-existant customer in > the hopes I can someday find somebody to buy it from me as-is. I'll > stick to offering my services for future products, plus NewEco > which is a framework for lubricating the process of hiring people > even if you don't have any money in advance to pay them, providing > you have your own *labor* to put in lieu of money.
True. Sale of an already-created product means people get something for their investment. "Sale" of something in the future you don't have is fraud.
>> - which clearly you don't.
> Actually there is a lot of software I've already written, but I > don't know any way to find people who would like to buy it, so it > would be a waste of my time and energy to fret over selling it to > somebody.
If it were worth selling, you should be able to find someone willing to buy it. After all, you claimed you were a genius.
> For example, perhaps you know somebody who would like to purchase > my spam-filtering+reporting system, which runs in CMUCL, which > detects new e-mail that's arrived, automatically scans it to see > whether it's spam or not, asks user for confirmation if not sure, > if not spam then bleeps user's terminal with summary of it, if spam > then checks if it already knows where to complain about it, if not > automatically checks WHOIS server to get complaint addresses, > automatically verifies any address not previously verified, if no > valid address then goes upstream to complain there instead, and at > long last when at least one appropriate spam-complaint address is > known it builds a formal complaint letter and e-mails it > automatically to the known-working spam-complaint address. In the > process of all this, it maintains a local database of known > verified spam-complaint addresses for all CIDRs which have ever > sent spam here, and also maintains a local database of traceroute > information, where any particular item is re-computed whenever > needed but several weeks out of date, and it maintains a white-list > of penpals and other correspondents who are not sending spam.
If it's worth buying, you should be able to find someone willing to buy it. I'm not your salesman.
>> So you're an unemployed genius doesn't have anything that anyone >> is willing to pay for.
> I have no idea. I don't know how to find *everyone* in the whole > world who would like to purchase either my already-completed > software or my services to produce new software. I have no money to > purchase prime-time advertisements on television networks, much > less SuperBowl ads.
You don't need to fine *everyone*. You only need to find *some*.
>> So you're trying to get people to work for free
> Nope. I offer equal exchange of labor-time.
And what makes you think your time is worth the same amount as mine - or anyone else's?
> You must have already spent at least two minutes to compose each of > the five nasty messages you've posted to attack me. If you had > spent those same ten minutes working for NewEco, you'd have ten > minutes of labor credits. As it is now, you have nada for all your > wasted time.
>> for the promise of some "labor credits" you don't have and can't >> be sure of supplying.
> http://TinyURL.Com/Portl1 (the portal for NewEco) already provides > labor credits, already supplied, as of several weeks ago, actually > a couple months ago. You could *already* have labor credits, if you > had connected to Portl1 and created an account and answered a > ten-second Turing question, or two 5-second Turing questions, or a > 4-second and a 6-second Turing question, then you'd already have > the 5 seconds of labor creduts you get when you create a new > account, plus the extra ten seconds of labor credits for the Turing > questions, a total of fifteen seconds of labor credits. You could > *really* have them already, if you didn't squander your time > attacking me. Or you could have them later today if you apply for a > new account right after you see this article.
Let's see. I get 10 minutes of labor credits. To use those credits, I need to put what I want in writing, find someone willing to do it, vet them to ensure they are qualified to do the work to my specifications, monitor their work to see it is completed properly and on time, then checking their final code to ensure it does what I need.
Or, I can spend 10 minutes and do it myself.
> Now the trick is what to *spend* those credits on. Currently a few > milliseconds of credit are taken as overhead for each PHP > script-run, but I don't have any *actual* services you can > purchase. But as soon as surveys/polls are implemented you'll be > able to invest some of your labor-credits to influence the outcome > of the surveys/polls, in particular you'll be able to influence > what direction NewEco takes, what new features (after > surveys/polls) you'd like me to implement for you to pay (labor > credits) to use/enjoy.
So you admit you have nothing to sell. But *maybe* you'll have some in the future.
> So I suggest you encourage me to get surveys/polls implemented, in > particlar right now you should look at http://TinyURL.Com/EcoSur > and offer help in cleaning up any flaws in the design if you can > find any, or if you like the design then please write a proposed > set of SQL statements to create those three tables, so I can review > your work instead of you reviewing mine, to speed up the final > design process.
Nope. I don't work for free. And as I said before, I wouldn't work for you if you paid me.
> Then, after it's implemented, you invest your time not in attacking > me in newsgroups but in voting (with your labor-time) for which new > features you'd like installed in NewEco, both ways that you can > spend your labor credits to get services you'd really like to get, > and ways that you can work to earn credits *other* than passing the > Turing questions I have pre-loaded. Why don't you take a look at > the proposed new services that I've posted for months that I'd > *like* to implement if anybody shows interest, pick something that > interests you, and then nominate that as an item in the "what to > implement" survey/poll, and then vote for that item with your > Turing-earned labor credits? If you're the only person voting, you > can dominate the result of the vote, hence almost completely > control what I do with NewEco. And even if somebody else votes for > something else, dilluting your control over the direction of > NewEco, you're such a eager beaver to destroy NewEco that surely > you can muster enough labor-time to overwealm their vote and > re-take control over the future direction of NewEco. Your vote in > NewEco's survey/poll will have a lot more effect than your > newsgroup rants.
I have looked at your proposed new service. I've seen better from high school kids.
> For the same reason you buy most/all of your food at a grocery > store instead of running your own private farm without the benefit > of any public-supplied irrigation or private-supplied livestock > feed or fertilizer etc., and for the same reason you bought your > computer at a store instead if re-inventing computers and silicon > wafer technology and trying to design all that technology from > scratch and build your own silicon mining in your back yard plus > all the refining and manufacturing etc. You can't do *everything* > you need all by yourself without help from other people to provide > you with things you can't provide yourself. Just look at how you > rely on the InterNet, paying your Internet Service Provider, to let > you post to newsgroups. Just try to, all by yourself, without the > help of the InterNet, to somehow
JS> I said you are looking for free help. REM> And that was not correct. I'm looking to trade help. I help my REM> users, they help me.
> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> > And what do you have which will help them? Nothing.
So-far I have just the essential accounting framework to require some tiny amount of human labor on a continuing basis to allow usage, which is basically for the purpose of preventing spambots from making millions of expensive service requests without any human intervention. Next I'm working on the first actual feature, namely surveys/polls, so that users can vote for what other features they would like me to implement. So at present it's too early to get an answer to the question of what I *will* have to help my users. But I have a large set of ideas of what might benefit my users. Have you looked at it yet? Have you looked through all the proposed services I might provide and found *nothing* that you believe *anyone* (except myself) could ever benefit from? In case it's been a while since you last looked at it, and you are too dumb to find the link to it, I'll show you where to find it. Start at http://TinyURL.Com/NewEco and follow this link: Linkname: larger index URL: http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/projectIdeas.html So tell me whether IYO there is *nothing* proposed there which could possibly ever be of use to anyone except myself.
> You didn't answer my question. What is your reserve of labor?
Right now, it's myself, specifically my ability to write software rapidly. After I get past the bootstrapping stage, where my users will be able to get benefit from the first of my services, but they'll need to perform labor from time to time to qualify for large amounts of my services, then my labor reserve will include all those happy users willing to trade their labors for my services.
Yesterday I was thinking about the chicken-and-egg problem that users don't want to pay for services until they've had a free trial to realize the services are actually valuable to them but I can't give a free trial because spammers will flood the system with spurious service requests and harvest all my useful data and re-sell it to others at a profit and crash my system etc. But then I realized how my current accounting framework is sufficient to solve this problem: - Users get a sorta free trial providing they are willing to answer randomly-selected Turing questions from time to time, which prevents spambotnets from swamping the system and harvesting all the useful content. - There are only a little over a hundred Turing questions, ranging from 4 to 10 seconds of credit each, totalling appx. 800 seconds of credit, so the free trial essentially ends at that point. All the customization that each user has set up to provide a personal experience, such as finding job ads that do *not* require any skills that user doesn't have, will be lost unless the user stops answering Turing questions and starts doing work that is truly useful to me or others on the system. Thus each user must decide, before the appx. 800 seconds of free-trial script-run time (appx 10-100 script-runs per second hence a few tens of thousands of script-runs total) are exhausted, whether any of the services are worth enough to do some *actual* labor in return. - Some services require a significant chunk of labor-time in the user's main account, but the user isn't allowed to use Turing questions to exceed 15 seconds in the main account. But the user can make small deposits into surveys/polls, again and again, using Turing questions to obtain the funds, building up the total investment (deposit) in surveys/polls far beyond the 15-second Turing limit, then suddenly withdraw enough at one time back into the user's main account to qualify for the services that require a minimum account balance greater than 15 seconds. - Since spammers are unlikely to bother setting up the complicated scripts that would be needed to alternately answer randomly-selected Turing questions and transfer the funds from the main account to surveys/polls, then upon getting enough total deposit, withdraw it all back to the main account and use it to make high-balance-required service requests, this strategy effectively locks spambotnets out of all the major (expensive to run) services. - Meanwhile, non-spammers, having tried all the services for free (except for the time required to answer some of the Turing questions, a relatively trivial amount of time, such as ten seconds to answer one question which grants 10,000 milliseconds of server time hence a hundred to a thousand individual service requests, which should satisfy the user for an hour or so), ought to by now (when Turing questions are nearly exhausted) have found *some* service which is **really** worth using, at which point they will be *willing* to start performing some useful labor in exchange for services. Thus I seem to have a graceful way to start with sorta-free trial of my provided services and convert towards labor exchange for continued use of services.
JS> So you're making promises you can't keep. REM> You are wrong again.
> You haven't shown you can keep your promises.
My currently-effective promise is that if you fill out the new-account form you can get a new account, and then you can log in and check your account balance and answer Turing questions whenever the balance is below 10 seconds and the smallest-value question won't put your balance over 15 seconds. That promise is currently being kept. How do you propose that I *show* that promise is being kept if you never test my system to see whether the promise is kept or not?
As soon as I finish implementing surveys/polls, I'll be able to make a new promise: You will be able to invest your income from Turing questions into whatever survey/poll question you wish among those offered, specifically into whichever of the listed "answers" you prefer for any particular question. For any given question you will also be allowed to propose a new answer, which will be visible *only* to you and the master account until such time as the master account approves it (no obscene/abusive/illegal language allowed, otherwise just about any survey question will be allowed). After your new answer gets approved, then you'll be able to deposit funds into that particular answer, as much as you can get from answering Turing questions. In particular, the meta-survey question that starts the whole process, "What survey question do you want?", will allow you to propose entirely new survey/poll questions. As soon as each is approved, the new question will be available for you (and other users) to propose answers to that question, and then after the answer is approved you'll be able to deposit funds into that answer.
Give me a couple more weeks to get surveys/polls fully implemented. If I succeed in said implementation, then you will be able to test those promises about surveys/polls to see whether I am keeping them.
Now are there any *other* promises you feel I've made already yet not demonstrated that I'm keeping?
Now some important matters regarding my network access and work on surveys/polls: On Wednesday, Nov.04, late afternoon, early evening, I got a call from the sysadmin of the ISP where I have my shell account to inform me that the discontinuation of direct VT100 dialup service had finally occurred, that now PPP was the only way to get into my shell account from home. Fortunately the day before I had restored from SyQuest drive the four remaining PPP-related files that I had deleted in 1998, and I had tried to run PPP and found that it didn't FREEZE my Macintosh, and that it actually dialed the local access number, but failed to perform a PPP login. Also a week or so before that I had finally remembered the trick for unBinHexing NiftyTelnet, namely don't use the BinHex program, instead do it directly in Stuffit Expander 3.0.7, which doesn't suffer from the large-file-CRC bug that the BinHex program suffers.
So while I was talking to the sysadmin over the phone, I explained my status, and he talked me through making the needed changes to PPP configuration so that it'd work. Basically I needed to include r...@rawbw.com instead of just rem as the login name, and in TCP/IP control panel I needed to manually enter the IP numbers of the two Domain Name Servers used by tsoft/rawbw. Then I tried connecting directly from the PPP config control panel, and this time it successfully established PPP connection.
Next I tried to run NiftyTelnet for the first time ever, and it couldn't find the modem to respond "OK" to a D.C.Hayes command, because the modem was already **online** via the PPP configuration control panel. So I had to terminate the PPP connection, and then try NiftyTelnet again, and this time it succeeded, gave me shell login prompt, I entered rem and password, and for the first time ever I was logged into a shell account via PPP.
NiftyTelnet too some getting used to, and I was already exhausted by this time, so I burned the rest of Wednesday.
But Thursday I started using NiftyTelnet + PPP to do actual useful work, specifically I started to do major work towards implementing surveys/polls in NewEco. By Thurdsay bedtime I had finished the main part of the code for proposing a new answer to the toplevel meta-survey question. See near the end of http://TinyURL.Com/EcoSur for that progress report, including sample output. During that work, developing the code, I created several copies of database records, where for consistency there should be only one. Rather than write code to manualy delete the extra records, Friday I started to write an audit program, runnable only from the master account, to allow me to browse the duplicate answers that a single user proposed to a single question and delete all but one of them. See the
The bottom line is - you have nothing. You seem to think a doctor's time is worth the same as a burger flippers - or that all programmer's time is worth the same. It isn't, by far.
You, with your great intelligence, can't seem to find a job, so you're trying to get people to work for you for free. You make promises you can't keep (which falls under the legal definition of fraud) and even here are trying to get people to do your work for you.
And as for the rest of your stuff - you aren't even smart enough to understand that these are NOT PHP questions - and are off topic in this newsgroup. Sure, you're using PHP for your project - but that does not automatically mean those are PHP question.
You're really desperate for help. How much have you gotten so far? I doubt anything - and you won't, because you can't even seem to understand what's off topic.
Get a job. Even you can flip burgers at the local diner or fast food restaurant.
-- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. jstuck...@attglobal.net ==================
><snipped a hole bunch of scam> [...] >And as for the rest of your stuff - you aren't even smart enough to >understand that these are NOT PHP questions - and are off topic in >this newsgroup.
>> Are you going to remodel my house for me, for instance?
>No, I don't have that particular skill. But perhaps eventually some >"networking" service such as LinkII whichI set up in NewEco will >facilitate your locating somebody in your local area who is willing >to remodel your house without needing $cash$, content to receive >labor credits in lieu of cash.
One problem I have here is: Why should someone trust labor credits on your site as opposed to other forms of currency, like Bernie Madoff investments, Enron stock, promises of future benefits from the Social Security system, S&H Green Stamps (anyone remember those?), airline miles, or 1 contest entry in the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes? I'm not saying these are all total scams but they are considerably less liquid than cash and they might go bad at any time.
Your current setup involving seconds of labor, Turing tests, and biasing surveys is a toy application that nobody, including tax authorities, will take seriously. I'm worried about what happens when it involves real-world labor in quantities of hours, weeks, and months, and when unemployed people can actually earn a living (that means, at a minimum, some way to buy food and pay rent) with labor credits.
What prevents you from issuing a lot of labor credits in exchange for web design on your site, a new car, and dental services, in exchange for promises that those credits would be redeemable in the future? Then you disappear (or declare bankruptcy), and no one else will accept the labor credits, so your suppliers are left holding worthless credits. Many scams like this (often with stock) have been pulled off before. It's this problem that make people what backs up labor credits or any other kind of currency someone issues.
If you do real labor bartering (this means in quantities like hours, weeks, and months, not seconds) and most of it between your users and your users, not with you as a party, then you have to deal with the tax laws. Two people who barter their own labor each have taxable income of the fair market value of the other person's labor they received. (This isn't like bartering objects where selling an old item for less than you paid for it new involves no tax.) An intermediate organization (you) who acts as a go-between needs to do tax reporting in this situation. Is your 1099-B form generator software ready yet? When you get to the point of bartering labor in real amounts I hope your accounting and tax reporting software is ready.
A somewhat-related problem is that all labor is not worth the same. An hour of babysitting is not worth the same as an hour of heart surgery or an hour of web design.
Hopefully you find people who do web design services in exchange for credits, people who do house remodeling in exchange for credits, and people who do dental work in exchange for credits, but this requires that people need to be able to trust that credits they get now will be worth something in the future. Now, when I go to trade a month's worth of web design and intend to later spend those credits on, say, house remodeling, I need some assurance that those credits won't go *POOF* before I've earned enough to do the whole house and I'll have wasted a month's worth of labor.
>I'm not paying $cash$, but I'm paying labor credits. Up to 15
When you get labor bartering up for real, what prevents you from buying huge amounts of goods and services (not worried about piddling 15 seconds of labor here: more worried about years) including a South American vacation, and then you don't come back, and all the stuff is gone somewhere. Even if you aren't a crook, people will believe you *MIGHT* be. There's plenty of scammers out there.
> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> > Fraud does not have to involve money. Check the law.
AFAIK it has to involves obtaining money or valuable services or products from somebody, on promise of something of comparable value in return, with deliberate intent to *not* keep that second half of the deal. Since nothing of the sort is occurring in regard to NewEco, you are committing libel every time you accuse me of committing fraud.
> I don't seem to have problems finding work.
That's because you already have a job. Just trying being unemployed for 18 years then convincing somebody to put you back to (paying) work.
> "Sale" of something in the future you don't have is fraud.
No, it's only fraud if you do not intend to create what they paid for.
> > Actually there is a lot of software I've already written, but I > > don't know any way to find people who would like to buy it, so it > > would be a waste of my time and energy to fret over selling it to > > somebody. > If it were worth selling, you should be able to find someone > willing to buy it.
Not necessarily so. It's entirely possible to have something of value but not know how to find somebody to buy it, at least not immediately.
> If it's worth buying, you should be able to find someone willing > to buy it.
Not necessarily. Creating something of value, and selling it, are two entirely different skills.
> > I have no idea. I don't know how to find *everyone* in the whole > > world who would like to purchase either my already-completed > > software or my services to produce new software. I have no money to > > purchase prime-time advertisements on television networks, much > > less SuperBowl ads. > You don't need to fine *everyone*. You only need to find *some*.
Correct, except that until I achieve an algorithm that finds *everyone* fitting that criterion, there's no way to know whether I haven't yet found somebody because I haven't yet exhausted the search space or because the search space is empty. Only after I've exhausted the search space, and still not found a successful result, then I would finally know the search space was empty to begin with.
Compare with SETI (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Inteligence): We have barely scratched the surface of ways to find where some ET might be hiding in our own galaxy, much less all the other galaxies in the Universe. So the fact we haven't *yet* found any ET is no proof that no ET exists anywhere. Likewise I haven't hardly begun to scratch the surface of asking each of 7 billion human beings each of five thousand questions whether they would like this or that software I wrote or might write in the near future, so I haven't any reason to give up already, and you have no reason to say not one person anywhere wants anything I ever wrote or ever will write.
Perhaps you should contact Laura who runs the women's music program on KKUP FM 91.5 on Sundays noonish, regarding an idea for use of NewEco that she rather liked and is looking forward to implementation.
> And what makes you think your time is worth the same amount as > mine - or anyone else's?
For people who already/currently have jobs that pay more than minimum wage, of course their time is allegedly worth more than somebody who is currently unemployed, but that might be more of a measurement bias than fact. My time might actually be worth much more than yours is, but not yet be well recognized so that I could get paid more than you are getting paid.
However for people who are currently unemployed, it's illegal to hire them for less than the minumum wage, so it's entirely reasonable to equate their payrates hypothetically if they can perform a contract that was offered. So for the main class of regular users I expect on my system, people currently unemployed, wasting their time doing fruitless job-search activities, not getting paid for anything they do, who could get paid (not $money$ but labor exchange) through my proposed system, it's entirely reasonable to say that any who are able to complete a contract through my system are worth the same hourly rate, while any who can't do any contract are worth less or zero, and any who can get a regular job that pays more than minimum wage are worth more.
But that's *total* time being measured. When we speak of marginal time, even a well-employed person might be worth minimum wage per marginal time. As yourself. Suppose you get $50/hr for the hours you are allowed to work. But suppose you want to do extra hours, at your own discretion, any time you feel like it. Will your employer pay you $50/hr for however many extra hours you wish to work? Or will your employer put a cap on your hours for which you get paid that rate, and any more you gotta find some other place to get paid, probably at only the legal minumum wage. In that case, your *marginal* payrate is probably just minumum wage.
> > You must have already spent at least two minutes to compose each of > > the five nasty messages you've posted to attack me. If you had > > spent those same ten minutes working for NewEco, you'd have ten > > minutes of labor credits. As it is now, you have nada for all your > > wasted time. > Which would be worth absolutely nothing.
How would you know? I bet you haven't even read my outline of proposed services to provide via NewEco. There might be something there you'd find very valuable, but you aren't aware of it, so you think all the ideas are worth nothing, and you are wrong.
> Let's see. I get 10 minutes of labor credits. To use those credits, ...
No, actually you're not allowed to get that much. Because of IRS regulations that all earnings over one dollar must be reported to IRS, including proof of work-permit and employee ID number and employer ID number, and the fact I have no funds to pay for all that overhead, I limit all transactions to less than a dollar each, which works out (at $8/hr minimum wage) to 7.5 minutes i.e. 450 seconds. To keep strictly under that dollar limit, and to keep all contracts a multiple of 10 seconds so that the 10% penalty for failure to complete a contract is also a whole number of seconds, the longest a contract can be is 440 seconds, i.e. 7 min 20 sec. If you have 10 minutes of credit, you can't spend it all at one time, you have to break it into different contracts, with no single contract over 440 seconds. Otherwise, continuing with your analysis ..
> I need to put what I want in writing,
Yes, if you mean computer writing, keystrokes of USASCII text. No actual **writing** (on paper etc.) required.
> find someone willing to do it,
No, that's what the RFB is for. You post a Request For Bids, and anyone who thinks they can do what you ask posts a bid, and the lowest bid gets the job.
> vet them to ensure they are qualified to do the work to my > specifications,
No. They say they can do the task, the clock starts, and if they haven't submitted their work by the end of the time they don't get paid.
> monitor their work to see it is completed properly and on time,
Mostly not correct. The computer keeps track of the clock. When they are done, *then* you check what they submitted to decide whether to pay immediately or dispute the quality of the work.
> then checking their final code to ensure it does what I need.
Yes, but you'd have to do that with *any* employeed. Only if you set an employer in charge of their own sub-company, with its own books and accounts payable/receivable and its own management independent of yours, then it's up to that sub-company whether it'll survive or go broke. But in all other cases, at some point you have to, as manager, at least do a cursory check of what work was submitted before you put it out on the market for customers to destructively test.
> Or, I can spend 10 minutes and do it myself.
If you can do something in 440 seconds yourself, then you'd be silly to hire somebody who says they can do it in 440 seconds. But if somebody can do it in half the time that you'd require, and if you have *lots* of such tasks, the little bits you save cutting 440 seconds down to 150 seconds for each can save you a lot of time. But the main use for contracting out work is when you simply can't do the job yourself in any reasonable amount of time, while somebody else *can*, so you hire them to get it done in a few minutes instead of spending weeks trying to figure out how you could do the whole job yourself without any help.
You talk like your company (software-programming instruction: Java, C++, etc.) has not a single employee, that you do *all* the work yourself, answer phones yourself, take customer-support calls yourself, and perform all the instruction yourself. The brag on your Web site about all your instructors being professional is a ploy, it's just you by yourself wearing all those hats at your "company". You've never hired even one person because you insist on doing all the work yourself instead of hiring others to increase the total workflow.
I doubt you do the whole company yourself, but you talk like you don't even have the concept of hiring anybody else to do something for you, because you can do all tasks yourself as fast as anybody can do them. I'm going to assume you *do* hire others, and are just playing stupid asking why you'd ever hire somebody to do 440 seconds of work for you when you could do the same work yourself in the same time.
NewEco would give you more flexibility in getting small tasks done, the kind you don't want to assign to your regular employees because it would distract them from concentration on their continuing projects, break up their concentration and lower their efficiency. Better that when you have five or ten very quick tasks you need done, instead of interrupting five or ten of your employees to stop what they are doing to do this quick task instead, better you post five or ten RFBs on NewEco and within a few minutes five or ten people have signed up to do those tasks, and a few minutes later
> From: gor...@hammy.burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) > One problem I have here is: Why should someone trust labor > credits on your site as opposed to other forms of currency,
Because these labor credits are available any time you want to spend a few minutes to earn them, unlike money which you can't just **get** any time you want to work for it, you need to go to a lot of trouble to get a *job* for somebody and then you're stuck at that job until you quit or get fired or laid off, and while you still have the job you basially have a fixed income. My system is flexible, that you work for labor-credits whenever you think you might need to spend them, then you try to spend them right after you get them. Instead of buying something you can't currently afford, on credit, and then spending the next 30 years paying off the loan, or saving in a bank account for 30 years in the hopes you'll still be alive and healthy and even want your big purchase when you can finally afford it, and assuming the currency doesn't collapse before you can spend it, with my system you just earn-and-spend small amounts, never going into debt, and never stockpiling large amounts of funds to spend later. So with my system you don't have to worry for a long time if your investment will go bad before you can spend it, and you don't have to worry that your debt will drive you to bankruptcy if your source of income dries up before your debt is paid.
> like Bernie Madoff investments,
Those weren't actually investments. Bernie and his wife and his accountant fabricated stock trades to make it look like you owned lots of stock, but in fact every dollar you put in yesterday has already been spent to pay back earlier investors who wanted to bail out, any leftovers from that payout going into Bernie and his wife"s lavish lifestyle. What's left that *you* actually own is nada, and if you ever get your "investment" (plus "profit") out, it's not *you* money you're getting, it's some later sucker's money.
> Enron stock,
The money invested there was a true investment in the sense that you now owned shares of a company. But whether that company was worth what you paid for it is a matter of some difficulty, and as it turned out the company wasn't worth as much as you paid.
> promises of future benefits from the Social Security system,
That's a cross between something like a bank deposit, where your money is sitting there to be withdrawn later, and a Ponzi scam where later contributors are paying for current benefits, and eventually when the money is all run out it'll be 100% Ponzi briefly before it totally collapses. Unlike Bernie's Ponzi scam, where if requests for withdrawl exceed new deposits Bernie can stall for time, with Social Security benefits it's not feasible for the government to delay third-of-month payouts more than a few days if at all, so when the money runs out the scheme collapses almost immediately after the third of the month.
> S&H Green Stamps (anyone remember those?),
I spent years collecting those, trying to build up enough to be able to buy something worth buying. Then the system went out of business and I lost all my labor and hope of value.
> airline miles,
I've never flown in an airline, so I can't speak first-hand about these, but it's my understanding that if the airline doesn't go out of business then lots of regular travellers do indeed cash in their airline miles and thus get return on their investment. But still that's a big risk giving the economic system with airlines going out of business on a regular basis. The first such I recall is Pan American, primarily because one of our neighbors was a pilot for them at the time.
> or 1 contest entry in the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes?
That's just a lottery, with the expected payout far less than the required investment, so it's just like going go a casino in Las Vegas and throwing your money at the losing gambles.
> I'm not saying these are all total scams but they are > considerably less liquid than cash and they might go bad at any > time.
Yup. The main problem is putting lots of money in one place, for a long time, with no law of nature guaranteeing you'll ever get your money back out, only promises by companies and governments and individuals, or sometimes not even promises just "maybe" statements that can mean anything or nothing. If you've studied the Prisoner's Dilemma game, and the optimal strategy (for **repeat** playing only, not for one-shot game) of "Tit for Tat", you understand that trust is best built incrementally by experience with a partner, not by just putting your trust in what somebody says without any evidence. Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scam is like organized religion, where they promise you that when you die you go to Heaven, if only you do what the Church says for all your life before you die. There's no way to know whether they are lying, because you don't get any incremental evidence, like you don't get to visit Heaven every few weeks to verify that it's still there and that you are still eligible to go there again later. In fact you never get to see Heaven at all during your life. It's all a **huge** confidence game for suckers who trust churches without any evidence. One big difference is that some Madoff suckers got lucky, they asked to get their money out at a time when there were enough new investors to bail them out. Same with the stock bubble, where people who liquidated their stock in 2007 made big profits while those who waited until 2008-09 when the bubble had burst discovered there were no more suckers to bail them out of the Ponzi stock market.
So in my system, I don't ask people to trust me to the point where they make huge investments (years of labor) on the promise that *eventually* they'll get their labor back out in the form of services they would like to get. I just ask that people spend a few minutes of labor and then immediately use their labor credits to post Requests for Bids (RFBs) offering to hire others to work for them to provide some small services they'd like to receive. So over time, as they realize that spending a few minutes of labor to earn credits really does allow them to hire others to work for them again and again, over and over, they build up confidence that these small exchanges are really a good idea, that they aren't losing their investments, that they get back out everything they put in, again and again.
> Your current setup involving seconds of labor, Turing tests, and > biasing surveys is a toy application that nobody, including tax > authorities, will take seriously.
Yes, but that's just my bootstrapping plan, to provide a way to learn what services people *really* would like beyond just voting in surveys. (The first survey question, set up at system-upgrade time, is "What surveys would you like to vote/invest in?" Then the second survey question, added by me as an ordinary user, will be "What new features would you like in NewEco?", unless somebody else jumps in and nominates some other survey during the few minutes after I upgrade the system to include surveys before I have time to nominate the new-features survey.) Hopefully somebody will suggest some service non-toy for me to implement, maybe something I already said I'd like to implement, or maybe something I didn't even think of yet.
> I'm worried about what happens when it involves real-world labor > in quantities of hours, weeks, and months,
That's not going to happen, except piecemeal by multiple contracts each worth less than one dollar that add up over time, until and unless I find a business partner to co-sign cheques for our users who choose to cash in their credits after we first find somebody who would rather pay cash for services instead of exchange labor for labor. Then at that time we'll need to contract a lawyer to deal with legal matters such as IRS filings, which will eat up most of our income for a while. So any contracts longer than 440 seconds each is in the distant future if at all.
Now I believe that since Safeway and Target often donate their gift cards (usually $5 each) to local food banks, to be given out in addition to the bags of food in November and/or December each year, and also to mental-health clinics, to be given out at Christmas parties each year, that there's a reaonable chance that either company might be willing to donate some of their gift cards to NewEco if and when NewEco has established a good reputation locally, maybe next year sometime. I think single-store-chain gift cards donated to a charity or cooperative don't require reporting to IRS as income, so then I could offer them to the first/next people who earn $5 of labor credits without needing to establish all the IRS documentation that would be needed for payment in regular currency or professional barter of amounts worth more than one dollar.
> and when unemployed people can actually earn a living (that > means, at a minimum, some way to buy food
Actually buying food isn't necessary around here. The food banks have more than enough food for everyone who qualifies for their services, which I believe includes everyone who is unemployed.
> and pay rent) with labor credits.
I'm not qualified to read other people's minds, but I rather doubt that a landlord whose foreclosed home is sitting unoccupied, except by squatters who then have to be chased away, is going to be willing to let somebody live in the home for no money at all, only for labor performed (directly or through my system). But for people on SSI who can pay maybe half the rent, they might be willing to accept half-cash half-labor payment of rent, because that's a lot better for the landlord than letting the home sit unoccupied and still have to pay property tax. At least the SSI-half would cover the property tax and maintenance, and the labor-half would be the extra factor to make the landlord maybe say OK.
>> One problem I have here is: Why should someone trust labor >> credits on your site as opposed to other forms of currency,
>Because these labor credits are available any time you want to >spend a few minutes to earn them, unlike money which you can't just >**get** any time you want to work for it,
"Because it's convenient" is not a good reason to trust anyone. "Because it's so useless I can't steal much from you at one time" makes it pretty useless to bother with your setup at all. I don't buy lunch one fry at a time, either. But there are chain-letter scammers who try to steal $1 at a time.
If you're still talking about toy amounts like 15 seconds of labor, I can still get equivalent amounts of money when I want to (for instance, collecting recyclable materials and selling them). And I probably wouldn't care if you ran off with three cents worth of labor credits - and it's not worth the price of a bullet to shoot you.
Now, if you're talking about serious amounts of labor credits - hours, weeks, or months, which you indicate you eventually want to do, why should I trust you?
>you need to go to a lot >of trouble to get a *job* for somebody and then you're stuck at >that job until you quit or get fired or laid off, and while you >still have the job you basially have a fixed income. My system is >flexible, that you work for labor-credits whenever you think you >might need to spend them, then you try to spend them right after >you get them.
That doesn't work for any but toy amounts of labor credits. You can't do that for enough labor credits to buy a tank of gas or have your suit drycleaned or have your hair styled.
>Instead of buying something you can't currently >afford, on credit, and then spending the next 30 years paying off >the loan, or saving in a bank account for 30 years in the hopes >you'll still be alive and healthy and even want your big purchase >when you can finally afford it, and assuming the currency doesn't >collapse before you can spend it, with my system you just >earn-and-spend small amounts, never going into debt, and never >stockpiling large amounts of funds to spend later. So with my
If you want things like a house, a car, furniture, etc., you have to stockpile large amounts of some kind of currency first, or go into debt. These things cost more than a few seconds of labor, no matter what currency you're using to buy them.
>system you don't have to worry for a long time if your investment >will go bad before you can spend it, and you don't have to worry >that your debt will drive you to bankruptcy if your source of >income dries up before your debt is paid.
It's a toy system where you can't buy anything real if you limit balances like that.
>> like Bernie Madoff investments,
>Those weren't actually investments.
They were represented to people as investments. You're representing that I can earn labor credits NOW and then use them later. How is that different? The only difference seems to be is that you do it in such small quantities that it's completely useless.
Such small quantities of labor are difficult to sell, anyway, unless they can be done over the web. If I want someone to do some labor for me, say, mowing my lawn, cutting my hair, sewing a button on a shirt, etc., we have to get together at the same place and that transportation cost (even if we live on the same block) swamps the tiny balance limit you have on labor credits.
>Yup. The main problem is putting lots of money in one place, for a >long time, with no law of nature guaranteeing you'll ever get your >money back out, only promises by companies and governments and >individuals, or sometimes not even promises just "maybe" statements >that can mean anything or nothing.
You made a claim at one point that unemployed people would actually be able to earn a living with labor credits. That means accumulating enough credits to, say, pay a month of rent. Or buy a suit. Or buy a bus pass good for a month. When you've got your site going to handle quantities this, why should I trust you?
>So in my system, I don't ask people to trust me to the point where >they make huge investments (years of labor) on the promise that >*eventually* they'll get their labor back out in the form of >services they would like to get.
If what they want *COSTS* years of labor (e.g. college tuition), how do they avoid this?
>I just ask that people spend a few >minutes of labor and then immediately use their labor credits to >post Requests for Bids (RFBs) offering to hire others to work for >them to provide some small services they'd like to receive. So over >time, as they realize that spending a few minutes of labor to earn >credits really does allow them to hire others to work for them >again and again, over and over, they build up confidence that these >small exchanges are really a good idea, that they aren't losing >their investments, that they get back out everything they put in, >again and again.
Scammers use this method to suck people in, then take them big time. Bernie Madoff likely started people with moderate investments at first. That you're trustworthy with pennies doesn't prove that you're trustworthy with thousands of dollars.
>> Your current setup involving seconds of labor, Turing tests, and >> biasing surveys is a toy application that nobody, including tax >> authorities, will take seriously.
>Yes, but that's just my bootstrapping plan, to provide a way to >learn what services people *really* would like beyond just voting >in surveys. (The first survey question, set up at system-upgrade >time, is "What surveys would you like to vote/invest in?" Then the >second survey question, added by me as an ordinary user, will be >"What new features would you like in NewEco?", unless somebody else >jumps in and nominates some other survey during the few minutes >after I upgrade the system to include surveys before I have time to >nominate the new-features survey.) Hopefully somebody will suggest >some service non-toy for me to implement, maybe something I already >said I'd like to implement, or maybe something I didn't even think >of yet.
>> I'm worried about what happens when it involves real-world labor >> in quantities of hours, weeks, and months,
>That's not going to happen, except piecemeal by multiple contracts >each worth less than one dollar that add up over time, until and >unless I find a business partner to co-sign cheques for our users >who choose to cash in their credits after we first find somebody >who would rather pay cash for services instead of exchange labor >for labor. Then at that time we'll need to contract a lawyer to >deal with legal matters such as IRS filings, which will eat up most >of our income for a while. So any contracts longer than 440 seconds >each is in the distant future if at all.
So you're saying it's a toy system and will stay a toy system.
Are you sure the IRS isn't interested in wages over a dollar *ACCUMULATED OVER A WHOLE YEAR*?
http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote: > From: gor...@hammy.burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) >> One problem I have here is: Why should someone trust labor >> credits on your site as opposed to other forms of currency, > [...] Instead of buying something you > can't currently afford, on credit, and then spending the next 30 > years paying off the loan, or saving in a bank account for 30 > years in the hopes you'll still be alive and healthy and even > want your big purchase when you can finally afford it, and > assuming the currency doesn't collapse before you can spend it, > with my system you just earn-and-spend small amounts, never > going into debt, and never stockpiling large amounts of funds to > spend later. So with my system you don't have to worry for a > long time if your investment will go bad before you can spend > it, and you don't have to worry that your debt will drive you to > bankruptcy if your source of income dries up before your debt is > paid.
Sure, there are always going to be risks, but some are more reasonable than others. There's nothing wrong with "stockpiling" funds for later. If I have an emergency down the line with tight funds (car trouble, health problems, etc.), a savings account can be a great help. Although I might get hit by a bus tomorrow, that doesn't stop me from trying to save funds today.
<snip>
>> An hour of babysitting is not worth the same as an hour of >> heart surgery or an hour of web design.
> An hour of web design is worth *nothing* whatsoever > commercially, since I can do it but nobody is willing to hire me > to do it.
Just because you're unable to find anyone to compensate you for your Web development services doesn't mean an hour of Web development is worth "nothing...commercially."
<snip>
>> Hopefully you find people who do web design services in >> exchange for credits,
> Let's re-phrase that slightly: People who *can* do web design > services, but who have been unable to find anybody to hire them, > because they have no paid experience on their resumes, because > they haven't gotten their first job yet, because nobody wants to > hire them, because they have no paid experience on their resume, > ... NewEco would give such people a chance to do their first > credited job, not for money but for labor-credits and > appreciation and a nice letter of recommendation and something > they can put on their resumes.
The situation isn't as much a Catch-22 as you make it out to be. Even if you come fresh out of school and are unable to find your ideal job, you can still try things like Craigslist or look up local small businesses.
> From: Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> > ... you are of no use to me. And as a programmer, you also are > of no use to me.
That's redundant. You don't seem very bright.
> It would take me less time to do it myself in the first place.
Several days ago I looked at your company Web site, and I notice that you claim to have classes for programming in C and C++ etc., but not PHP. Why not? Do you consider PHP too difficult to learn, so you haven't learned it yet? Or do you consider PHP so easy that there's not a single person anywhere on Earth who would need to take a class to learn PHP?
> >> let's see the cash. > > I don't have any cash. > So we're back to the fact you're looking for free labor.
Nope, it's trade labor, which isn't free. You really don't seem intelligent at all. How come you can't see the difference between free labor and barter my labor for yours?
> > I never ask for cash in advance. I only ask for a few seconds of > > labor in advance, then the resultant labor credits are immediately > > redeemable for services. > Which will be worthless.
Perhaps to you, because you have poisoned your mind against me and can't see any value in anything I ever do, but my labor credits will be useful to other people.
> Here's an idea. Do what I do. When I need help, I PAY for it.
Hey, that's good that you have so much money burning a hole in your pocket. Maybe you should hire me to write PHP/MySQL scripts for you, since you don't seem to know how to do PHP.
> And they are supposed to eat "labor credits"? ROFLMAO!
So if somebody offers you paper money for work, you turn down the job because you can't eat paper money? And if somebody offers direct deposit of your wages, again you turn it down because you can't eat direct deposits?
If some local farmer wants to get some work done to set up a Web site to advertise the farm goods, and doesn't have cash handy, but has some extra unsold produce available, that person might offer the produce in return for labor credits, and then use the labor credits to hire somebbody to do the Web site. So the person who did the Web site could eat what the labor credits paid for, the same as money can't be eaten but pays for food that can be eaten. I'm just setting up a new kind of currency that anybody can get easily, compared to the US dollar which about 25% of adults in the USA are unable to get except by charity/welfare.
> >> If your project is worth it, then you can raise the money. > > How would you suggest I find somebody willing to invest $money$, > > not just time, in NewEco? > You're a genius. Figure it out.
You don't understand genus at all. Genius is the ability to solve complex problems, given information available. Genius almost never helps obtain inforation that isn't readily available.
> >> You're a genius, I'm sure you can get a loan. > > Only if you provide me with the information I need. Genius just > > means that with adequate information I can figure out the solution > > to the problem. But without the needed information, an IQ of ten > > thousand wouldn't be able solve the problem. > OK, you figure out the solution to the problem and get the financing.
OK, you provide with sufficient information that I can derive a mathematical solution, and I'll see if I can do so. It's your move.
> In other words, you can't convince anyone else to invest in your > scheme, either.
I don't know anybody. I don't know any way to get introduced to anybody who would be interested in investing in NewEco.
> >> Then I suggest you get a real job. > > How would you propose I do that? > You're a genius. Figure it out.
Once again you have a really misguided idea of what genius is good for and what it isn't. I've done everything reasonable to get a job, without success, and unless you can suggest something I haven't tried yet, I'm stuck with no way to make progress, except if NewEco turns out to be a big hit and I get famous and lots of people start to seek me for working for them.
> No, but then I am also paying people. Hard cash.
That's possible only because you already *have* hard cash. Those of us who don't have any hard cash, don't have the options that you have. NewEco will fix that, let *everyone* hire people.
> I'm not going to do your work for you - especially for free. You > want to build a business, you need to learn how to run a business.
I'll make you the same offer that I've made to employment agencies for the past 30 years: You find me a job, and I pay you 25% of my first $10k of income from that job. If you're any good, that'll get you $2500. But you're no good, so you won't accept my offer.
> The bottom line is - you have no idea how to run a business.
I have a little bit of an idea. First I need to find some customers for my product or service. Then I need to write up a "business plan".
> You're looking for free help.
Nope.
> In return, you promise future "labor credits" which are worthless.
You've just contradicted yourself. If I offer something in return for the help I get, then I'm not asking for free help. It doesn't matter whether *you* mistakenly believe my labor is worthless, because it's of value to others.
> I suggest you get a real job.
I've been trying for 18+ years, without luck. If you have any suggestions how I can get a job now, please say. Otherwise shut the fuck up with your statements to do something I'm already trying to do but don't know how to do.
By the way, if your personal time is so valuable, why do you waste so much of it writing attack letters against me and posting them in newsgroups? Couldn't you put your valuable time to better use, making $money$ somehow? Or are you incapable of making money, that your Web site claming your computer-programming classes is just a sham, there are no such classes, you're just waiting for the first sucker to send you money for non-existant classes? If you *really* had a way to peform labor in return for money, you'd be doing it instead of spending time attacking me. I can only conclude that you are just as destitute as I am, unable to find anybody to pay you for your worthless labors, but you're less honest than I am, unwilling to admit your time is just as worthless as you mistakenly belive mine is.
By the way, tonight I finished the code to allow one of my NewEco users to not only nominate a new answer to a survey question, but to amend a previously nominated answer. Next I'll need to write the code that allows the master user to approve such a nomination, or reject it if it's obviously absurd or obscene or abusive etc., or amend it if it's almost perfect but has some little mistake/typo.
<Another huge bunch of bullshit snipped, saving oodles of usenet electrons>
For someone who claims to be a genius, you really have no idea why someone won't hire you. That becomes more obvious with each post - your time is as worthless to everyone else as it is to me.
It's also becoming more and more apparent why you can't find anyone to invest in your project - or to help you with it.
-- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. jstuck...@attglobal.net ==================
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