> ... Ratboys, Kappa Slappers, Skangers, Janners, Stigs, Scallies, Sengas, > Pikeys, Gallus Weegies and a Generous Assortment of Neds. > 'Chav', by the way, comes from the Sanskrit 'sava' via Polari and > Romany.
Hmm. Charvs (or as they're called in Newcastle, "Charvers") seem to be all the rage at the moment. Dot Wordsworth's "Mind Your Language" column in this week's Spectator magazine is also about charvers. For what it's worth, she gives the same etymology.
It's something we discuss regularly at my office. We assumed, though, that the word "charver" was unique to the North East of England. Seems we were wrong.
Thanks for the web links. They're quite enlightening.
In alt.usage.english, RobertE wrote: >"Mickwick" <mickw...@use.reply.to> wrote in message >> 'Chav', by the way, comes from the Sanskrit 'sava' via Polari and >> Romany.
>Hmm. Charvs (or as they're called in Newcastle, "Charvers") seem to be all >the rage at the moment. Dot Wordsworth's "Mind Your Language" column in this >week's Spectator magazine is also about charvers. For what it's worth, she >gives the same etymology.
That's where I got it from, and that's what prompted me to visit those websites.
>It's something we discuss regularly at my office.
Interesting office!
> We assumed, though, that the word "charver" was unique to the North >East of England. Seems we were wrong.
Not necessarily. The phenomenon is widespread but most of the words used to describe it are probably fairly local. (Else why are there so many of them?) 'Spide', for example, seems to be restricted to Northern Ireland, and 'senga' to Glasgow.
'Ned' might be the exception but I don't know enough about it to say for sure.
The original Ratboy was from your part of the world, I think. Does 'ratboy' have a wider usage now? I hadn't encountered it since the original news stories, but that doesn't mean a great deal.
>Thanks for the web links. They're quite enlightening.
> The original Ratboy was from your part of the world, I think. Does > 'ratboy' have a wider usage now? I hadn't encountered it since the > original news stories, but that doesn't mean a great deal.
I think Viz has done a lot to popularise 'Ratboy' beyond the north east, as it has for a number of other previously-regional issues (like Ace lager, for one!)
-- Dave Kenworthy ----------------------------- Changes aren't permanent - but change is!
> >It's something we discuss regularly at my office. > Interesting office!
Yes, well, I'm not native to the North East but most of my colleagues are. We have a lot of conversations that begin with me saying, "Why is it that...?" or "Have you noticed that...?" They (my colleagues, that is) then go on to enlighten me in the ways of Geordiedom. Sort of practical anthropology, I guess :-)
> > We assumed, though, that the word "charver" was unique to the North > >East of England. Seems we were wrong. > Not necessarily. The phenomenon is widespread but most of the words used > to describe it are probably fairly local.
I wonder if charvers (or whatever the local variant might be) are regarded elsewhere as they are in Newcastle. Here they are more or less universally despised or ridiculed by those who are not themselves charvers.
BTW, pace Dot Wordsworth, I heard an interesting folk etymology of the word "charver" a few weeks ago. One of my colleagues said he had heard that it was a corruption of "chauffeur". In the early 1990s there was a large number of car thefts by joyriders. Those who stole the cars were chauffeurs because they were driving other people's cars. Quite witty, as folk etymologies go.
In alt.usage.english, RobertE wrote: >I wonder if charvers (or whatever the local variant might be) are regarded >elsewhere as they are in Newcastle. Here they are more or less universally >despised or ridiculed by those who are not themselves charvers.
Beware! One of those sites said that seven out of eight neds don't realise that they are neds.
>BTW, pace Dot Wordsworth, I heard an interesting folk etymology of the word >"charver" a few weeks ago. One of my colleagues said he had heard that it >was a corruption of "chauffeur". In the early 1990s there was a large number >of car thefts by joyriders. Those who stole the cars were chauffeurs because >they were driving other people's cars. Quite witty, as folk etymologies go.
Another trait common to the charva is a loud, slightly sarcastic, nasal laugh and slow 'can't really be bothered to talk' speech. Typical slang words that Charvas use are 'belta', 'mint' and 'waxa' all meaning good or great, with the prefix of 'pure' or 'total' this would mean really good. The word charva has been in common use in the North East since the mid-nineties.
And:
My daughter was bought an Adidas bag which she refused to use for fear of being called a "Chav".
(There's now a paperback version of The Dictionary of Playground Slang. £5.59 at Amazon.)
>I think Viz has done a lot to popularise 'Ratboy' beyond the north east, as >it has for a number of other previously-regional issues (like Ace lager, for >one!)
If Urbandictionary.com is a reliable indicator of popularity (which it probably isn't) then sadly 'ratboy' has yet to make the bigtime. There are only three definitions, all of them a little odd. For example:
ratboy
A fat kid who DOES NOT know kung fu.
By contrast, there are 139 definitions of 'townie' 89 of 'pikey' (most of them ned-like) 77 of 'charva'/'charver' 51 of 'chav' 31 of 'scally' 13 of 'ned' 8 of 'kev' 6 of 'skanger' 5 of 'janner' 5 of 'stig' 3 of 'spide' 2 of 'steek' and 1 of 'kappa slapper'
This is quite a phenomenon! I find it fascinating. All of these words (and an overwhelming majority of the definitions) describe the same male sub-culture (I forgot to check the definitions of the female equivalents - 'millie', 'senga' etc.) and they seem to have arisen independently in different regions. (Even if they share the same etymology, as 'charva'/'charver' and 'chav' may well do.)
And, although often fuelled by the usual Urbandictionary bile, many of the definitions are uncharacteristically literate. The explanation for this can be found within the definitions themselves - neds/chavs/charvas are said to prey on students.
Here are the regions, as far as I can tell:
Townie Everywhere. Particularly associated with town/gown animosity.
Pikey South Coast of England, where it has shed its earlier 'gypsy' meaning and now indicates a ned.
Charva/charver North East.
Chav Kent.
Scally Originally Liverpool but widely understood.
Ned Originally Glasgow, then Edinburgh, now current in parts of England. Several etymologies, all bogus, apparently.
Kev Claimed as Brummie, but Kevin has long been a widespread shorthand for 'oikish male'.
Skanger Dublin.
Janner Portsmouth.
Stig Everywhere. From the book 'Stig of the Dump'.
Spide Belfast. (Originally 'Spiderman'.)
Steek Belfast.
Yarco Great Yarmouth - a 'townie' employee of Yarco. (That's a guess.)
Some highlights (or perhaps not) from Urbandictionary.com:
ned
Irritating guys who throw rocks at buses [...]
(Good luck, Jacqui!)
And: spide
[...] the troubles in n. Ireland were caused by spides, and their estates are daubed with paramilitary propaganda such as "red hand commandos" or "up the provos". English hip- hop hoods think they are tough, but where i'm from, the spides eat Ali G wannabes for breakfast and wash it down with a pint of gravel. beware.
And: charver
In Polari (1950s gay slang) charver means shag.
I'm going to charver your brains out.
And: NED
Northeast Dick Head. A person from Northeast Philadelphia who goes to bars and starts fights, gets wasted and acts like an idiot
(Oy! Stop nicking our slang!)
Things to look out for:
Acne Spotless white trainers Gelled fringes Tracksuits etc. with *big* logos Stripey T-shirts (charvas/charvers only, apparently) Baseball caps worn at an odd angle Loads of bling bling 'Scars' shaved into eyebrows Wigga slang (Hi, DE781!) Anything by Burberry (Royal Warrant granted: 1919)
> This is quite a phenomenon! I find it fascinating. All of these words > (and an overwhelming majority of the definitions) describe the same male > sub-culture (I forgot to check the definitions of the female equivalents > - 'millie', 'senga' etc.) and they seem to have arisen independently in > different regions. (Even if they share the same etymology, as > 'charva'/'charver' and 'chav' may well do.)
In this part of thw world (Gloucestershire) 'chav' is used exclusively to describe girls, immediately identifiable by the Croydon facelift.
> In alt.usage.english, RobertE wrote: > >"Mickwick" <mickw...@use.reply.to> wrote in message
> >> 'Chav', by the way, comes from the Sanskrit 'sava' via Polari and > >> Romany.
> >Hmm. Charvs (or as they're called in Newcastle, "Charvers") seem to be all > >the rage at the moment. Dot Wordsworth's "Mind Your Language" column in this > >week's Spectator magazine is also about charvers. For what it's worth, she > >gives the same etymology.
> That's where I got it from, and that's what prompted me to visit those > websites.
In that same article, Dot said that she asked Veronica (who's her daugher, btw) the difference between a chav and a pikey. Veronica is quoted as saying that a pikey is like a "pram-face, really rubbish, eats economy burgers and oven chips and watches televsion all day" (sorry, I'm quoting from memory, but that's the jist of it).
Question: what the heck is a "pram-face"? Can anyone define it for me?
> Is this somewhat garbled Royal Naval slang? In the RN, Janners are > from Plymouth and other parts of SW England.
> Cheers, Sage
According to Rick Jolly's 'Jackspeak' (ISBN 0 9514305 0 5) 'Jan' or 'Janner' is an RN nickname for any sailor from the West Country and by extension anything that originates from Devon or Cornwall. -- John Dean Oxford
RobertE wrote: > "Mickwick" <mickw...@use.reply.to> wrote in message > news:eUAO4PGC4TJAFwAL@shropshire.plus.com... >> In alt.usage.english, RobertE wrote: >>> "Mickwick" <mickw...@use.reply.to> wrote in message
>>>> 'Chav', by the way, comes from the Sanskrit 'sava' via Polari and >>>> Romany.
>>> Hmm. Charvs (or as they're called in Newcastle, "Charvers") seem to >>> be all the rage at the moment. Dot Wordsworth's "Mind Your >>> Language" column in this week's Spectator magazine is also about >>> charvers. For what it's worth, she gives the same etymology.
>> That's where I got it from, and that's what prompted me to visit >> those websites.
> In that same article, Dot said that she asked Veronica (who's her > daugher, btw) the difference between a chav and a pikey. Veronica is > quoted as saying that a pikey is like a "pram-face, really rubbish, > eats economy burgers and oven chips and watches televsion all day" > (sorry, I'm quoting from memory, but that's the jist of it).
> Question: what the heck is a "pram-face"? Can anyone define it for me?
A woman with the kind of face you'd expect to see on someone pushing a pram - by inference an unmarried mother on a council estate - hard-faced and old before her time. The popular music combo 'Girls Aloud' are reckoned to be archetypal pram-faces. As are / were Atomic Kitten. I first encountered the term on the Popbitch website. They will even provide Pram-face T-shirts to the cognoscenti: http://www.popbitch.com/tshirts/ -- John Dean Oxford
> > Is this somewhat garbled Royal Naval slang? In the RN, Janners are > > from Plymouth and other parts of SW England.
> > Cheers, Sage
> According to Rick Jolly's 'Jackspeak' (ISBN 0 9514305 0 5) 'Jan' or 'Janner' > is an RN nickname for any sailor from the West Country and by extension > anything that originates from Devon or Cornwall. > -- > John Dean > Oxford
Well, er, that's what more or less what I said, dineye?
<john-d...@frag.lineone.net> wrote: >RobertE wrote: >> Question: what the heck is a "pram-face"? Can anyone define it for me?
>A woman with the kind of face you'd expect to see on someone pushing a >pram - by inference an unmarried mother on a council estate - hard-faced and >old before her time. The popular music combo 'Girls Aloud' are reckoned to >be archetypal pram-faces. As are / were Atomic Kitten. >I first encountered the term on the Popbitch website. They will even provide >Pram-face T-shirts to the cognoscenti: >http://www.popbitch.com/tshirts/
See the mothers in the park Ugly creatures, chiefly Someone must have loved them once In the dark, and briefly.
Anon.
-- Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".
>>> Is this somewhat garbled Royal Naval slang? In the RN, Janners are >>> from Plymouth and other parts of SW England.
>>> Cheers, Sage
>> According to Rick Jolly's 'Jackspeak' (ISBN 0 9514305 0 5) 'Jan' or >> 'Janner' is an RN nickname for any sailor from the West Country and >> by extension anything that originates from Devon or Cornwall. >> -- >> John Dean >> Oxford
> Well, er, that's what more or less what I said, dineye?
I was expanding it un pew. You ditten say what a Janner was. I was also lending an unnecessary air of spurious authority to your post. No, no, don't thank me ... -- John Dean Oxford
> > In this part of thw world (Gloucestershire) 'chav' is used exclusively > > to describe girls, immediately identifiable by the Croydon facelift.
> Croydon facelift? That's a new one on me. What it is?
> RobertE
A hairstyle where the hair is scraped back so tightly from the face (often into a hideous topknot, the better to display poorly-dyed split ends) that it brings into prominence the wearer's cheekbones.
> >>> Is this somewhat garbled Royal Naval slang? In the RN, Janners are > >>> from Plymouth and other parts of SW England.
> >>> Cheers, Sage
> >> According to Rick Jolly's 'Jackspeak' (ISBN 0 9514305 0 5) 'Jan' or > >> 'Janner' is an RN nickname for any sailor from the West Country and > >> by extension anything that originates from Devon or Cornwall. > >> -- > >> John Dean > >> Oxford
> > Well, er, that's what more or less what I said, dineye?
> I was expanding it un pew. You ditten say what a Janner was. I was also > lending an unnecessary air of spurious authority to your post. No, no, don't > thank me ... > -- > John Dean > Oxford
Phew: quel relief.
We had a killick of the mess who was called Jan by one and all. We were based in Plymouth. He came from North Devon. I've no idea what his real first name was.
> > Croydon facelift? That's a new one on me. What it is? > > RobertE > A hairstyle where the hair is scraped back so tightly from the face > (often into a hideous topknot, the better to display poorly-dyed split > ends) that it brings into prominence the wearer's cheekbones. > Edward
Ah. I see. And the hair no doubt held back with several dozen scrunchies, often resulting in what looks rather like a palm tree. :-)
> > > Croydon facelift? That's a new one on me. What it is?
> > > RobertE
> > A hairstyle where the hair is scraped back so tightly from the face > > (often into a hideous topknot, the better to display poorly-dyed split > > ends) that it brings into prominence the wearer's cheekbones.
> > Edward
> Ah. I see. And the hair no doubt held back with several dozen scrunchies, > often resulting in what looks rather like a palm tree. :-)
In alt.usage.english, sage wrote: >"Mickwick" <mickw...@use.reply.to> wrote in message >> Janner Portsmouth. >Is this somewhat garbled Royal Naval slang? In the RN, Janners are from >Plymouth and other parts of SW England.
My mistake. I remembered it wrong. Plymouth, not Portsmouth. (And I used to live in Saltash, so I should know the difference.)
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