On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 10:16:17 -0700, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote: >On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:22:35 +0000, Chuck Riggs ><chri...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>On 6 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>Default User filted:
>>>>tony cooper wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:26:05 +0000, Robin Bignall >>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>> > Luckily, when I was nine I hadn't heard of Cincinnati either. Or >>>>> > chili. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
>>>>> As far as I'm concerned, good chili is served over spaghetti. >>>>> However, I don't like the traditional Cincinnati chili. It's too >>>>> sweet.
>>>>I enjoy chili over pasta (spaghetti or elbow mac) or rice.
>>>I am fallen among heretics!...r
>>Not at all. I had chili over rice no more than thirty minutes ago and, >>AFAIC, it was excellent.
>As logn as the subject line mentions hot dogs and this post >mentions chili, a Mexican foodstuff, might as well check out the >Sonoran hotdog, which is quite popular hereabouts. See the second >item, Tucson, Sierra Vista, etc, in the table at >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations
That is _some_ production. I want one. --
Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:22:35 +0000, Chuck Riggs >> <chri...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On 6 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> >>> wrote:
>>>> Default User filted:
>>>>> tony cooper wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:26:05 +0000, Robin Bignall >>>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> Luckily, when I was nine I hadn't heard of Cincinnati >>>>> >> either. Or chili. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
>>>>>> As far as I'm concerned, good chili is served over >>>>>> spaghetti. However, I don't like the traditional >>>>>> Cincinnati chili. It's too sweet.
>>>>> I enjoy chili over pasta (spaghetti or elbow mac) or rice.
>>>> I am fallen among heretics!...r
>>> Not at all. I had chili over rice no more than thirty >>> minutes ago and, AFAIC, it was excellent.
>> As logn as the subject line mentions hot dogs and this post >> mentions chili, a Mexican foodstuff, might as well check out >> the Sonoran hotdog, which is quite popular hereabouts. See >> the second item, Tucson, Sierra Vista, etc, in the table >> at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations > That is _some_ production. I want one.
Chili does seem to derive from the Border styles of cooking, especially the state of Sonora. Even if some chauvinist Mexican dictionaries define it as "detestably American", it seems North American in the broad sense. The "Sonoran hotdog" must be something like the quite commonly available "chili dog".
--
James Silverton Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
>The Hyundai model that is sold here to compete with the Honda Jazz is >called a Getz.
>What'll they think of next? The little Daihatsu Davis that gets very >good mileage? The Kia Winding? Will Prince Phillip be driven around in a >Bentley Ellington? A big semi-tariler called the Coltrane?
>They might even have to revive the old Armstrong Siddeley.
I'm still waiting for the Mazda Ahura...(once knew someone who traded his Toyota Plethora for a Plymouth Miasma)....r
-- A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:55:29 -0800, R H Draney wrote: > John Holmes filted:
>>The Hyundai model that is sold here to compete with the Honda Jazz is >>called a Getz.
>>What'll they think of next? The little Daihatsu Davis that gets very >>good mileage? The Kia Winding? Will Prince Phillip be driven around in a >>Bentley Ellington? A big semi-tariler called the Coltrane?
>>They might even have to revive the old Armstrong Siddeley.
> I'm still waiting for the Mazda Ahura...(once knew someone who traded > his Toyota Plethora for a Plymouth Miasma)....r
Wasn't the Plymouth Miasma is what carried off so many of the Pilgrim Fathers (and Mothers and Children) that first winter in Massachusetts?
-- Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
<not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > Chuck wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:55:21 +0000:
>>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:22:35 +0000, Chuck Riggs >>> <chri...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> On 6 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> >>>> wrote:
>>>>> Default User filted:
>>>>>> tony cooper wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:26:05 +0000, Robin Bignall >>>>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> Luckily, when I was nine I hadn't heard of Cincinnati >>>>>> >> either. Or chili. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
>>>>>>> As far as I'm concerned, good chili is served over >>>>>>> spaghetti. However, I don't like the traditional >>>>>>> Cincinnati chili. It's too sweet.
>>>>>> I enjoy chili over pasta (spaghetti or elbow mac) or rice.
>>>>> I am fallen among heretics!...r
>>>> Not at all. I had chili over rice no more than thirty >>>> minutes ago and, AFAIC, it was excellent.
>>> As logn as the subject line mentions hot dogs and this post >>> mentions chili, a Mexican foodstuff, might as well check out >>> the Sonoran hotdog, which is quite popular hereabouts. See >>> the second item, Tucson, Sierra Vista, etc, in the table >>> at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations
>> That is _some_ production. I want one.
>Chili does seem to derive from the Border styles of cooking, especially >the state of Sonora. Even if some chauvinist Mexican dictionaries define >it as "detestably American", it seems North American in the broad sense. >The "Sonoran hotdog" must be something like the quite commonly available >"chili dog".
It's nothing at all like a chili dog. Please read the description at the cited Wikipedia article.
-- ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatu...@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > Chuck wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:55:21 +0000:
>>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:22:35 +0000, Chuck Riggs >>> <chri...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> On 6 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> >>>> wrote:
>>>>> Default User filted:
>>>>>> tony cooper wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:26:05 +0000, Robin Bignall >>>>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> Luckily, when I was nine I hadn't heard of Cincinnati >>>>>> >> either. Or chili. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
>>>>>>> As far as I'm concerned, good chili is served over >>>>>>> spaghetti. However, I don't like the traditional >>>>>>> Cincinnati chili. It's too sweet.
>>>>>> I enjoy chili over pasta (spaghetti or elbow mac) or rice.
>>>>> I am fallen among heretics!...r
>>>> Not at all. I had chili over rice no more than thirty >>>> minutes ago and, AFAIC, it was excellent.
>>> As logn as the subject line mentions hot dogs and this post >>> mentions chili, a Mexican foodstuff, might as well check out >>> the Sonoran hotdog, which is quite popular hereabouts. See >>> the second item, Tucson, Sierra Vista, etc, in the table >>> at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations
>> That is _some_ production. I want one.
>Chili does seem to derive from the Border styles of cooking, especially >the state of Sonora. Even if some chauvinist Mexican dictionaries define >it as "detestably American", it seems North American in the broad sense. >The "Sonoran hotdog" must be something like the quite commonly available >"chili dog".
Would you say that chilli falls into the TexMex tradition of cooking or is that unfairly restricting its origins? --
Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
>> Chuck wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:55:21 +0000:
>>>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:22:35 +0000, Chuck Riggs >>>> <chri...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 6 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> >>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Default User filted:
>>>>>>> tony cooper wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:26:05 +0000, Robin Bignall >>>>>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> Luckily, when I was nine I hadn't heard of Cincinnati >>>>>> >>> either. Or chili. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
>>>>>>>> As far as I'm concerned, good chili is served over >>>>>>>> spaghetti. However, I don't like the traditional >>>>>>>> Cincinnati chili. It's too sweet.
>>>>>>> I enjoy chili over pasta (spaghetti or elbow mac) or >>>>>>> rice.
>>>>>> I am fallen among heretics!...r
>>>>> Not at all. I had chili over rice no more than thirty >>>>> minutes ago and, AFAIC, it was excellent.
>>>> As logn as the subject line mentions hot dogs and this post >>>> mentions chili, a Mexican foodstuff, might as well check >>>> out the Sonoran hotdog, which is quite popular hereabouts. >>>> See the second item, Tucson, Sierra Vista, etc, in the >>>> table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations
>>> That is _some_ production. I want one.
>> Chili does seem to derive from the Border styles of cooking, >> especially the state of Sonora. Even if some chauvinist >> Mexican dictionaries define it as "detestably American", it >> seems North American in the broad sense. The "Sonoran hotdog" >> must be something like the quite commonly available "chili >> dog". > Would you say that chilli falls into the TexMex tradition of > cooking or is that unfairly restricting its origins?
TexMex does seem rather restrictive if Texas-Mexican is meant but it can be a useful term to describe a style of cooking that is different from Sonoran. The dish did originate in towns like San Antonio, where poor Mexican families made a little meat go a long way with lots of chili. Whether those "Mexicans" emigrated from Sonora or were there when Texas became independent, I can't answer.
There are some good chili recipes from New Mexico and I've eaten some of them. New Mexicans don't use the term TexMex, I believe, but I can stand correction. In the DC area there are several good TexMex restaurants and one that I like, "El Mariachi" that claims to be "Mexican". This has dishes from several places in Mexico.
--
James Silverton Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
<not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > Chuck wrote on Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:02:31 +0000:
>>> Chuck wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:55:21 +0000:
>>>>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:22:35 +0000, Chuck Riggs >>>>> <chri...@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 6 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Default User filted:
>>>>>>>> tony cooper wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:26:05 +0000, Robin Bignall >>>>>>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>> Luckily, when I was nine I hadn't heard of Cincinnati >>>>>>> >>> either. Or chili. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
>>>>>>>>> As far as I'm concerned, good chili is served over >>>>>>>>> spaghetti. However, I don't like the traditional >>>>>>>>> Cincinnati chili. It's too sweet.
>>>>>>>> I enjoy chili over pasta (spaghetti or elbow mac) or >>>>>>>> rice.
>>>>>>> I am fallen among heretics!...r
>>>>>> Not at all. I had chili over rice no more than thirty >>>>>> minutes ago and, AFAIC, it was excellent.
>>>>> As logn as the subject line mentions hot dogs and this post >>>>> mentions chili, a Mexican foodstuff, might as well check >>>>> out the Sonoran hotdog, which is quite popular hereabouts. >>>>> See the second item, Tucson, Sierra Vista, etc, in the >>>>> table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations
>>>> That is _some_ production. I want one.
>>> Chili does seem to derive from the Border styles of cooking, >>> especially the state of Sonora. Even if some chauvinist >>> Mexican dictionaries define it as "detestably American", it >>> seems North American in the broad sense. The "Sonoran hotdog" >>> must be something like the quite commonly available "chili >>> dog".
>> Would you say that chilli falls into the TexMex tradition of >> cooking or is that unfairly restricting its origins?
>TexMex does seem rather restrictive if Texas-Mexican is meant but it can >be a useful term to describe a style of cooking that is different from >Sonoran. The dish did originate in towns like San Antonio, where poor >Mexican families made a little meat go a long way with lots of chili. >Whether those "Mexicans" emigrated from Sonora or were there when Texas >became independent, I can't answer.
TexMex is a rather different style of cooking from Sonoran. The Sonoran style prevails in Arizona, the southern part of which was Sonoran until the Gadsden Purchase.
>There are some good chili recipes from New Mexico and I've eaten some of >them. New Mexicans don't use the term TexMex, I believe, but I can stand >correction. In the DC area there are several good TexMex restaurants and >one that I like, "El Mariachi" that claims to be "Mexican". This has >dishes from several places in Mexico.
Sonoran cooking is rather different from TexMex, since the Mexicans in Texas came mostly from Chihuahua or Coahuila. For instance, in Sonoran cooking wheat flour tortillas and not corn tortillas tend to predominate. Beef figures also, Sonora being a beef and wheat state. The dish called chili comes in two varieties, red and green, and consists of chunks of beef in a red or green chili sauce. No beans, no hamburger.
In general, although I like spicey food, I think TexMex overdoes it. Sonoran cooking is toned down a bit and served with hot sauce (not the bottled stuff) which can be used to add more heat.
Unfortunately, in much of America, and the rest of the world, TexMex predominates in Mexian restaurants. I've had Texmex in Helsinki.
-- ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatu...@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
> >> Chuck wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:55:21 +0000:
> >>>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:22:35 +0000, Chuck Riggs > >>>> <chri...@eircom.net> wrote:
> >>>>> On 6 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> > >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Default User filted:
> >>>>>>> tony cooper wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:26:05 +0000, Robin Bignall > >>>>>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> >>> Luckily, when I was nine I hadn't heard of Cincinnati > >>>>>> >>> either. Or chili. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
> >>>>>>>> As far as I'm concerned, good chili is served over > >>>>>>>> spaghetti. However, I don't like the traditional > >>>>>>>> Cincinnati chili. It's too sweet.
> >>>>>>> I enjoy chili over pasta (spaghetti or elbow mac) or > >>>>>>> rice.
> >>>>>> I am fallen among heretics!...r
> >>>>> Not at all. I had chili over rice no more than thirty > >>>>> minutes ago and, AFAIC, it was excellent.
> >>>> As logn as the subject line mentions hot dogs and this post > >>>> mentions chili, a Mexican foodstuff, might as well check > >>>> out the Sonoran hotdog, which is quite popular hereabouts. > >>>> See the second item, Tucson, Sierra Vista, etc, in the > >>>> table athttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations
> >>> That is _some_ production. I want one.
I do too. Hold the mayo, the mustard, and the ketchup. And the hot dog.
> >> Chili does seem to derive from the Border styles of cooking, > >> especially the state of Sonora. Even if some chauvinist > >> Mexican dictionaries define it as "detestably American", it > >> seems North American in the broad sense. The "Sonoran hotdog" > >> must be something like the quite commonly available "chili > >> dog". > > Would you say that chilli falls into the TexMex tradition of > > cooking or is that unfairly restricting its origins?
"Chili" or "chile", to use the American spellings, means several different things--hot peppers, sauce made from them, a stew properly called "chili con carne" (or in Mexico, also "carne con chile" or "chile"). From my memories of Diana Kennedy's cookbooks, it belongs to both sides of the border region. The version with beans may be Tex- Mex.
> TexMex does seem rather restrictive if Texas-Mexican is meant but it can > be a useful term to describe a style of cooking that is different from > Sonoran. The dish did originate in towns like San Antonio, where poor > Mexican families made a little meat go a long way with lots of chili. > Whether those "Mexicans" emigrated from Sonora or were there when Texas > became independent, I can't answer.
> There are some good chili recipes from New Mexico and I've eaten some of > them. New Mexicans don't use the term TexMex, I believe, but I can stand > correction.
We do use it--to refer to an alien and probably evil style of cooking.
"Texas chile is just tomatoes and gunpowder."
> In the DC area there are several good TexMex restaurants and > one that I like, "El Mariachi" that claims to be "Mexican". This has > dishes from several places in Mexico.
<jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: >On Nov 9, 7:28 am, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> >wrote: >> Chuck wrote on Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:02:31 +0000:
>> >> Chuck wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:55:21 +0000:
>> >>>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:22:35 +0000, Chuck Riggs >> >>>> <chri...@eircom.net> wrote:
>> >>>>> On 6 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> >> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>> Default User filted:
>> >>>>>>> tony cooper wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:26:05 +0000, Robin Bignall >> >>>>>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>> >>> Luckily, when I was nine I hadn't heard of Cincinnati >> >>>>>> >>> either. Or chili. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
>> >>>>>>>> As far as I'm concerned, good chili is served over >> >>>>>>>> spaghetti. However, I don't like the traditional >> >>>>>>>> Cincinnati chili. It's too sweet.
>> >>>>>>> I enjoy chili over pasta (spaghetti or elbow mac) or >> >>>>>>> rice.
>> >>>>>> I am fallen among heretics!...r
>> >>>>> Not at all. I had chili over rice no more than thirty >> >>>>> minutes ago and, AFAIC, it was excellent.
>> >>>> As logn as the subject line mentions hot dogs and this post >> >>>> mentions chili, a Mexican foodstuff, might as well check >> >>>> out the Sonoran hotdog, which is quite popular hereabouts. >> >>>> See the second item, Tucson, Sierra Vista, etc, in the >> >>>> table athttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations
>> >>> That is _some_ production. I want one.
>I do too. Hold the mayo, the mustard, and the ketchup. And the hot >dog.
>> >> Chili does seem to derive from the Border styles of cooking, >> >> especially the state of Sonora. Even if some chauvinist >> >> Mexican dictionaries define it as "detestably American", it >> >> seems North American in the broad sense. The "Sonoran hotdog" >> >> must be something like the quite commonly available "chili >> >> dog". >> > Would you say that chilli falls into the TexMex tradition of >> > cooking or is that unfairly restricting its origins?
>"Chili" or "chile", to use the American spellings, means several >different things--hot peppers, sauce made from them, a stew properly >called "chili con carne" (or in Mexico, also "carne con chile" or >"chile"). From my memories of Diana Kennedy's cookbooks, it belongs >to both sides of the border region. The version with beans may be Tex- >Mex.
>> TexMex does seem rather restrictive if Texas-Mexican is meant but it can >> be a useful term to describe a style of cooking that is different from >> Sonoran. The dish did originate in towns like San Antonio, where poor >> Mexican families made a little meat go a long way with lots of chili. >> Whether those "Mexicans" emigrated from Sonora or were there when Texas >> became independent, I can't answer.
>> There are some good chili recipes from New Mexico and I've eaten some of >> them. New Mexicans don't use the term TexMex, I believe, but I can stand >> correction.
>We do use it--to refer to an alien and probably evil style of cooking.
>"Texas chile is just tomatoes and gunpowder."
>> In the DC area there are several good TexMex restaurants and >> one that I like, "El Mariachi" that claims to be "Mexican". This has >> dishes from several places in Mexico.
>Yum.
I try to avoid restaurants called "El Mariachi".
I also try to avoid strolling mariachi bands in restaurants.
-- ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatu...@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes: > "Chili" or "chile", to use the American spellings, means several > different things--hot peppers, sauce made from them, a stew properly > called "chili con carne" (or in Mexico, also "carne con chile" or > "chile"). From my memories of Diana Kennedy's cookbooks, it belongs > to both sides of the border region. The version with beans may be > Tex- Mex.
Somewhat to my surprise, "chili" doesn't appear in the DRAE, and none of the definitions of "chile" indicate a dish. (Unsurprisingly, "chilli" doesn't appear.)
-- Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Pious Jews have a category of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |questions that can harmlessly be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |allowed to go without an answer |until the Messiah comes. I suspect kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com |that this is one of them. (650)857-7572 | Joseph C. Fineman
On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:39:13 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: > Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> "Chili" or "chile", to use the American spellings, means several >> different things--hot peppers, sauce made from them, a stew properly >> called "chili con carne" (or in Mexico, also "carne con chile" or >> "chile"). From my memories of Diana Kennedy's cookbooks, it belongs to >> both sides of the border region. The version with beans may be Tex- >> Mex.
> Somewhat to my surprise, "chili" doesn't appear in the DRAE, and none of > the definitions of "chile" indicate a dish. (Unsurprisingly, "chilli" > doesn't appear.)
Perhaps the learned editors considered "chili" to be standard rather than regional American English.
-- Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
> Sonoran cooking is rather different from TexMex, since the > Mexicans in Texas came mostly from Chihuahua or Coahuila. For > instance, in Sonoran cooking wheat flour tortillas and not corn > tortillas tend to predominate. Beef figures also, Sonora being a > beef and wheat state. The dish called chili comes in two > varieties, red and green, and consists of chunks of beef in a red > or green chili sauce. No beans, no hamburger.
My wife's ancestors on one side were Tarahumara indians, origins in Sonoran and Chihuahuan mountain regions. She's told me about life in those parts, and in the poorer parts of Ciudad Obregon, Sonora. She'd never seen a wheat flour tortilla until she was seven and came down from the mountains. Up there, meat was rarely part of the menu, and when it was, it was overcooked to the point of carbonization or (in stews) disintegration. Goat and squirrel, mostly.
In the city, flour tortillas were for rich people, corn for "the rest of us".
She seems to think the regionality of Mexican cooking styles is nearly vanished. She's often discounted restaurant menu descriptions that claim one or another origin or typicality; once they are served, they don't match what she knows or knew.
TexMex I don't know; at a recommended Santa Fe establishment I ordered a reputed star of the genre, and got a nice hot stew that was similar to one my wife makes and calls Sonoran.
As for wines, coffees, cigars, chocolates, I am relatively disinterested in the pedigrees of the stuff, although I sort of admire those who sense and value the discriminations. Sometimes.
I guess Texan Carroll Shelby - auto racer, car builder, chicken farmer, world championship racing team manager - still markets his chili mix. Add meat and grease (corn meal and beans, too, if you don't mind departing from authenticity) and you have what must be TexMex on the face of it. I don't care; it makes good chili.
> In general, although I like spicey food, I think TexMex overdoes > it. Sonoran cooking is toned down a bit and served with hot sauce > (not the bottled stuff) which can be used to add more heat.
> Unfortunately, in much of America, and the rest of the world, > TexMex predominates in Mexian restaurants. I've had Texmex in > Helsinki.
Roland wrote on Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:57:38 +0000 (UTC):
>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> "Chili" or "chile", to use the American spellings, means >>> several different things--hot peppers, sauce made from them, >>> a stew properly called "chili con carne" (or in Mexico, also >>> "carne con chile" or "chile"). From my memories of Diana >>> Kennedy's cookbooks, it belongs to both sides of the border >>> region. The version with beans may be Tex- Mex.
>> Somewhat to my surprise, "chili" doesn't appear in the DRAE, >> and none of the definitions of "chile" indicate a dish. >> (Unsurprisingly, "chilli" doesn't appear.) > Perhaps the learned editors considered "chili" to be standard > rather than regional American English.
The OED does not take sides. Under chilli, chilly, it has Forms: 7 chille, 7-9 chile, 8 chilly, 9 chili, 7- chilli, pl. chillies
Under chilli con carne, it has usu chile or chili.
For myself, I have taken (not completely consistently) to using chili for the pepper *and* the stew and Chile for the country. --
James Silverton Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
James Silverton wrote: > For myself, I have taken (not completely consistently) to using chili > for the pepper and the stew and Chile for the country.
I call the dish "chili" and the produce "chile". So I might put some jalapeno chiles in my chili.
Brian
-- Day 280 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
On Nov 9, 12:06 pm, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 7:28 am, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> > wrote: > > Chuck wrote on Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:02:31 +0000:
...
> > > Would you say that chilli falls into the TexMex tradition of > > > cooking or is that unfairly restricting its origins?
> "Chili" or "chile", to use the American spellings, means several > different things--hot peppers, sauce made from them, a stew properly > called "chili con carne" (or in Mexico, also "carne con chile" or > "chile").
Roland Hutchinson <my.spamt...@verizon.net> writes: > On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:39:13 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> Somewhat to my surprise, "chili" doesn't appear in the DRAE, and >> none of the definitions of "chile" indicate a dish. >> (Unsurprisingly, "chilli" doesn't appear.)
> Perhaps the learned editors considered "chili" to be standard rather > than regional American English.
It took me a minute to understand your point, but I doubt that the learned editors of the Diccionario de la Real Academia Espańola care all that much.
-- Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |In the beginning, there were no 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |reasons, there were only causes. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Daniel Dennet
On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:25:56 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: > Roland Hutchinson <my.spamt...@verizon.net> writes:
>> On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:39:13 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>> Somewhat to my surprise, "chili" doesn't appear in the DRAE, and none >>> of the definitions of "chile" indicate a dish. (Unsurprisingly, >>> "chilli" doesn't appear.)
>> Perhaps the learned editors considered "chili" to be standard rather >> than regional American English.
> It took me a minute to understand your point, but I doubt that the > learned editors of the Diccionario de la Real Academia Espańola care all > that much.
Er, yes, oops, well -- just because you _write_ DRAE doesn't prevent me from _reading_ DARE. Might should; clearly don't.
-- Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 10:06:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >On Nov 9, 7:28 am, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> > >wrote: > >> Chuck wrote on Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:02:31 +0000:
> >> >> Chuck wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:55:21 +0000:
> >> >>>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:22:35 +0000, Chuck Riggs > >> >>>> <chri...@eircom.net> wrote:
> >> >>>>> On 6 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> > >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>> Default User filted:
> >> >>>>>>> tony cooper wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:26:05 +0000, Robin Bignall > >> >>>>>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>> >>> Luckily, when I was nine I hadn't heard of Cincinnati > >> >>>>>> >>> either. Or chili. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.
> >> >>>>>>>> As far as I'm concerned, good chili is served over > >> >>>>>>>> spaghetti. However, I don't like the traditional > >> >>>>>>>> Cincinnati chili. It's too sweet.
> >> >>>>>>> I enjoy chili over pasta (spaghetti or elbow mac) or > >> >>>>>>> rice.
> >> >>>>>> I am fallen among heretics!...r
> >> >>>>> Not at all. I had chili over rice no more than thirty > >> >>>>> minutes ago and, AFAIC, it was excellent.
> >> >>>> As logn as the subject line mentions hot dogs and this post > >> >>>> mentions chili, a Mexican foodstuff, might as well check > >> >>>> out the Sonoran hotdog, which is quite popular hereabouts. > >> >>>> See the second item, Tucson, Sierra Vista, etc, in the > >> >>>> table athttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations
> >> >>> That is _some_ production. I want one.
> >I do too. Hold the mayo, the mustard, and the ketchup. And the hot > >dog.
> >> >> Chili does seem to derive from the Border styles of cooking, > >> >> especially the state of Sonora. Even if some chauvinist > >> >> Mexican dictionaries define it as "detestably American", it > >> >> seems North American in the broad sense. The "Sonoran hotdog" > >> >> must be something like the quite commonly available "chili > >> >> dog". > >> > Would you say that chilli falls into the TexMex tradition of > >> > cooking or is that unfairly restricting its origins?
> >"Chili" or "chile", to use the American spellings, means several > >different things--hot peppers, sauce made from them, a stew properly > >called "chili con carne" (or in Mexico, also "carne con chile" or > >"chile"). From my memories of Diana Kennedy's cookbooks, it belongs > >to both sides of the border region. The version with beans may be Tex- > >Mex.
> >> TexMex does seem rather restrictive if Texas-Mexican is meant but it can > >> be a useful term to describe a style of cooking that is different from > >> Sonoran. The dish did originate in towns like San Antonio, where poor > >> Mexican families made a little meat go a long way with lots of chili. > >> Whether those "Mexicans" emigrated from Sonora or were there when Texas > >> became independent, I can't answer.
> >> There are some good chili recipes from New Mexico and I've eaten some of > >> them. New Mexicans don't use the term TexMex, I believe, but I can stand > >> correction.
> >We do use it--to refer to an alien and probably evil style of cooking.
> >"Texas chile is just tomatoes and gunpowder."
> >> In the DC area there are several good TexMex restaurants and > >> one that I like, "El Mariachi" that claims to be "Mexican". This has > >> dishes from several places in Mexico.
> >Yum.
> I try to avoid restaurants called "El Mariachi".
I'm not sure it's wise to judge a restaurant by its name. (I was just responding to the idea of dishes from several places in Mexico.)
> I also try to avoid strolling mariachi bands in restaurants.
> On Nov 9, 1:29 pm, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote: >> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 10:06:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Nov 9, 7:28 am, "James Silverton" > >> <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > >>> Chuck wrote on Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:02:31 +0000:
> >> >>> Chuck wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:55:21 +0000:
> >> >>>>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:22:35 +0000, Chuck Riggs > >> >>>>> <chri...@eircom.net> wrote:
> >> >>>>>> On 6 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0800, R H Draney > >> >>>>>> <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> Default User filted:
> >> >>>>>>>> tony cooper wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:26:05 +0000, Robin Bignall > >> >>>>>>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>> >>>> Luckily, when I was nine I hadn't heard of > >> >>>>>> >>>> Cincinnati either. Or chili. Sometimes > >> >>>>>> >>>> ignorance can be bliss.
> >> >>>>>>>>> As far as I'm concerned, good chili is served > >> >>>>>>>>> over spaghetti. However, I don't like the > >> >>>>>>>>> traditional Cincinnati chili. It's too sweet.
> >> >>>>>>>> I enjoy chili over pasta (spaghetti or elbow mac) > >> >>>>>>>> or rice.
> >> >>>>>>> I am fallen among heretics!...r
> >> >>>>>> Not at all. I had chili over rice no more than > >> >>>>>> thirty minutes ago and, AFAIC, it was excellent.
> >> >>>>> As logn as the subject line mentions hot dogs and > >> >>>>> this post mentions chili, a Mexican foodstuff, might > >> >>>>> as well check out the Sonoran hotdog, which is quite > >> >>>>> popular hereabouts. See the second item, Tucson, > >> >>>>> Sierra Vista, etc, in the table > >> >>>>> athttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog_variations
> >> >>>> That is _some_ production. I want one.
> >> I do too. Hold the mayo, the mustard, and the ketchup. > >> And the hot dog.
> >> >>> Chili does seem to derive from the Border styles of > >> >>> cooking, especially the state of Sonora. Even if some > >> >>> chauvinist Mexican dictionaries define it as > >> >>> "detestably American", it seems North American in the > >> >>> broad sense. The "Sonoran hotdog" must be something > >> >>> like the quite commonly available "chili dog". > >> >> Would you say that chilli falls into the TexMex > >> >> tradition of cooking or is that unfairly restricting its > >> >> origins?
> >> "Chili" or "chile", to use the American spellings, means > >> several different things--hot peppers, sauce made from > >> them, a stew properly called "chili con carne" (or in > >> Mexico, also "carne con chile" or "chile"). From my > >> memories of Diana Kennedy's cookbooks, it belongs to both > >> sides of the border region. The version with beans may be > >> Tex- Mex.
> >>> TexMex does seem rather restrictive if Texas-Mexican is > >>> meant but it can be a useful term to describe a style of > >>> cooking that is different from Sonoran. The dish did > >>> originate in towns like San Antonio, where poor Mexican > >>> families made a little meat go a long way with lots of > >>> chili. Whether those "Mexicans" emigrated from Sonora or > >>> were there when Texas became independent, I can't answer.
> >>> There are some good chili recipes from New Mexico and I've > >>> eaten some of them. New Mexicans don't use the term > >>> TexMex, I believe, but I can stand correction.
> >> We do use it--to refer to an alien and probably evil style > >> of cooking.
> >> "Texas chile is just tomatoes and gunpowder."
> >>> In the DC area there are several good TexMex restaurants > >>> and one that I like, "El Mariachi" that claims to be > >>> "Mexican". This has dishes from several places in Mexico.
> >> Yum.
>> I try to avoid restaurants called "El Mariachi". > I'm not sure it's wise to judge a restaurant by its name. (I > was just responding to the idea of dishes from several places > in Mexico.) >> I also try to avoid strolling mariachi bands in restaurants. > That's different.
El Mariachi has been open for 18 years and is *very* good! I don't mind Mariachi bands either, they are fun to listen to. I especially remember my nephew's wedding in Oaxaca where the bride insisted that I dance with her and also discovered why I don't dance with anyone. We are still friends.
--
James Silverton Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: > Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> "Chili" or "chile", to use the American spellings, means several >> different things--hot peppers, sauce made from them, a stew properly >> called "chili con carne" (or in Mexico, also "carne con chile" or >> "chile"). From my memories of Diana Kennedy's cookbooks, it belongs >> to both sides of the border region. The version with beans may be >> Tex- Mex.
> Somewhat to my surprise, "chili" doesn't appear in the DRAE, and none > of the definitions of "chile" indicate a dish. (Unsurprisingly, > "chilli" doesn't appear.)
I've been following this thread with some difficulty, because in my AusE the word "chili" can _only_ be used to refer to the hot pepper. It can go into a dish, but never be the name of a dish.
From the recipes I've googled, I suspect that your chili con carne (I almost wrote that as chile con cane) is not a lot different from what I would call spaghetti sauce.
I've only every heard the word TexMex used as a put-down. Are there regions where it has a neutral or even positive meaning?
-- Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Moylan wrote: > From the recipes I've googled, I suspect that your chili con carne (I > almost wrote that as chile con cane) is not a lot different from what > I would call spaghetti sauce.
If that's the case, then your spaghetti sauce is a far different product than the typical US stuff.
Brian
-- Day 280 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
>> From the recipes I've googled, I suspect that your chili con carne (I >> almost wrote that as chile con cane) is not a lot different from what >> I would call spaghetti sauce.
> If that's the case, then your spaghetti sauce is a far different > product than the typical US stuff.
To be precise, I'm thinking of a Bolognese or similar sauce, but that's the most common choice here. Different cooks will, of course, have slightly different recipes. The main ingredients are minced beef and either tomatoes or tomato paste, and whatever vegetables are available at the time of cooking. The mix of herbs and spices depends on personal taste. As it happens, I don't often use chili peppers in mine. The batch I made a couple of days ago used tabasco sauce instead, along with garlic, onion, oregano, and thyme.
-- Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
James Hogg wrote: > Chuck Riggs wrote: >> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:39:46 GMT, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> >> wrote:
>>> On 04 Nov 2009, Chuck Riggs wrote
>>>> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:32:05 GMT, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> >>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 03 Nov 2009, Paul Wolff wrote
>>>>>> Chuck Riggs <chri...@eircom.net> wrote >>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:27:15 +0000, Robin Bignall >>>>>>> <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>> The trouble is that the word 'café' can refer to any small >>>>>>>> eatery, from a greasy spoon to the sort of place you'd take your >>>>>>>> mother to for a cream tea. >>>>>>> The trouble for me is why some Brits have a problem pronouncing >>>>>>> that é properly. >>>>>> It's because we haven't grown up French, and so make do with >>>>>> caffay or worse. >>>>> The pronunciations also give out signals: single-syllable ones >>>>> -- "caff" -- differ from those pronounced with two syllables. >>>> You don't do it to disparage the French? >>> I don't think it's the reason for it -- but if it gets up their noses >>> that's all the better, doncha' think?
>> I would never disparage a country where such fine wine, beautifully >> prepared food from the freshest of ingredients, an untold number of >> tasty cheeses and beaucoup beautiful women are so readily at hand.
> But France is no longer considered sexy, accent-wise. That's due to the > Sarkozy effect. According to the latest poll, Chuck, you are surrounded > by the sexiest-sounding speakers:
The Sarkozy effect sounds iffy to me - Italian is right near the top and yet they have that gangster, womaniser and porn-producer Berlusconi in charge.
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