> <<It's perfectly normal to see several neutrals wire nutted together in > a junction box. Say a switch is going to serve 3 lights that have > seperate runs to them. In that box, the neutrals from each light run > would typically be tied together with the neutral coming into the box > from the breaker. So, you'd have 4 white neutral wires nutted > together.>>
> I've seen the same, and wondered why it would be OK to tie three #12 wires > together with just a #12 pigtail wire running to the neutral bus. I think > it's better to install another neutral bus in the box than to wire nut them > together just to avoid overloading that last little segment of wire.
I don't think we're talking about the same thing. You wouldn't install another neutral bus or even have a neutral bus in a simple junction box that contains a switch for three lights, which is the example I gave. And you certainly wouldn't ever pig tail neutrals together in a panel box and then connect the pig tail to the neutral bus.
> I also recall some issue about NEC no longer permitting different size wires > under the same screw in a neutral bus. When I added some new circuits, I > made sure each neutral had its own hole on the bus bar (probably overkill, > but if they're now requiring it, there must be a reason - I think).
> Whether it's any safer, it looks a heck of lot neater that way and no one's > life is depending on a wire nut, one of the most troublesome sort of > connectors I've ever seen. My whole house's electrical circuits had been > wired-nutted everywhere you could put a wire nut and at least half of the > problems I tracked down were from bad "nut jobs."
> Another 1/4 were from cheap backstabbed 3 wire outlets installed on 2 wire > ungrounded circuits (!!!) and the other 1/4 was from assorted lunacy like > pulling neutrals from wherever was convenient and confusing neutrals and > grounds. That's why we got it cheap. One trip around the house with a > little outlet tester and they knew they had to knock the price down. A $400 > home inspection DIDN'T catch the phony grounded outlets, FWIW. That's also > when I learned to never use an inspector recommended by ANY real estate > agent. They must have special lists of "inspectors" guaranteed to not queer > the deal.
> Doug Miller wrote: > > In article <hd4kot$v2...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Robert Green" <robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote:
> >> [...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an > >> average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to power the > >> oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only 110VAC.
> > Electric water heaters have igniters?
> Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters > similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.
> TDD
Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the backup, but I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC and a neutral connection." I got caught fair and square. President Bill taught me not to do what he did. I wonder what would have happened had he confessed in graphic detail instead of lying? I doubt it could have been any worse!
> In article <4af5bc2a$0$31262$607ed...@cv.net>, "Existential Angst" <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
> >Is a 3-wire bx cable leaving a panel *necessarily* an edison-type deal?
> No. It could supply an appliance that has both 240V and 120V loads. Examples > include electric dryers (240V heating elements, 120V motor and controls) and > electric stoves (240V heating elements, 120V controls).
> In article <hd4kot$v2...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Robert Green" <robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote:
> >[...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an > >average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to power the > >oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only 110VAC.
> Electric water heaters have igniters?
Oops. I knew there was something wrong with that sentence when I was moving from the general to the specific. How about: Cold fusion electric water heaters have igniters to start the fusion process? Or: They need an igniter to activate a Maxwell's Demon that sorts the hotter water molecules from the cooler ones? How about - I f_cked up! Yeah, that's the ticket! But you get the general gist. Some of that 240VAC gear needs 110VAC connections . . . Just NOT *electric* water heater igniters. (-:
> <<It's perfectly normal to see several neutrals wire nutted together in > a junction box. Say a switch is going to serve 3 lights that have > seperate runs to them. In that box, the neutrals from each light run > would typically be tied together with the neutral coming into the box > from the breaker. So, you'd have 4 white neutral wires nutted > together.>>
> I've seen the same, and wondered why it would be OK to tie three #12 wires > together with just a #12 pigtail wire running to the neutral bus. I think > it's better to install another neutral bus in the box than to wire nut them > together just to avoid overloading that last little segment of wire.
<<I don't think we're talking about the same thing. You wouldn't install another neutral bus or even have a neutral bus in a simple junction box that contains a switch for three lights, which is the example I gave. And you certainly wouldn't ever pig tail neutrals together in a panel box and then connect the pig tail to the neutral bus.>>
You're correct, of course, you did say junction box. I have, however, seen more than one circuit box where instead of installing a new bus bar, they've just nutted together neutrals when there wasn't anywhere on the bus bar another neutral could go. Of course, this was a house that had the three wire outlets attached to two-wire circuits (no real ground, no GFCI upstream), neutrals flying in from anywhere that was handy with the same for ground wires, as in sticking a pipe in the ground with a clamp on it in three different exterior locations where they needed a ground instead of running a wire back to the panel for a common grounding point.
My apologies if it seemed I was criticizing you, I missed the "junction box" part and read in my own concerns about what I had see inside circuit boxes in older houses with very small panels. I undid those pigtails in my main panel and mounted another bus bar, even moving the neutrals that were legitimate in that they were not pigtailed, but had two same gauge wires under one screw.
I recall having a long discussion *somewhere* as to why there was (IIRC) a new prohibition against more than wire under a neutral bus bar screw unless explicitly approved for such connections by the panel maker. Maybe it was here. I just assumed that there was evidence that a two-wire hole and set screw arrangement worked loose more often than a single wire under the set screw. I do know that every neutral wire on the bus was loose. Don't know if the last person to work on it was weak-handed or that over time, the copper deformed over time and loosened up. I suspect a little bit of both.
There, that should get me in at least as much trouble as my "electric water heater igniter did" and then some!
> I also recall some issue about NEC no longer permitting different size wires > under the same screw in a neutral bus. When I added some new circuits, I > made sure each neutral had its own hole on the bus bar (probably overkill, > but if they're now requiring it, there must be a reason - I think).
> Whether it's any safer, it looks a heck of lot neater that way and no one's > life is depending on a wire nut, one of the most troublesome sort of > connectors I've ever seen. My whole house's electrical circuits had been > wired-nutted everywhere you could put a wire nut and at least half of the > problems I tracked down were from bad "nut jobs."
> Another 1/4 were from cheap backstabbed 3 wire outlets installed on 2 wire > ungrounded circuits (!!!) and the other 1/4 was from assorted lunacy like > pulling neutrals from wherever was convenient and confusing neutrals and > grounds. That's why we got it cheap. One trip around the house with a > little outlet tester and they knew they had to knock the price down. A $400 > home inspection DIDN'T catch the phony grounded outlets, FWIW. That's also > when I learned to never use an inspector recommended by ANY real estate > agent. They must have special lists of "inspectors" guaranteed to not queer > the deal.
> ><<It's perfectly normal to see several neutrals wire nutted together in > >a junction box. Say a switch is going to serve 3 lights that have > >seperate runs to them. In that box, the neutrals from each light run > >would typically be tied together with the neutral coming into the box > >from the breaker. So, you'd have 4 white neutral wires nutted > >together.>>
> >I've seen the same, and wondered why it would be OK to tie three #12 wires > >together with just a #12 pigtail wire running to the neutral bus.
> It's *not* OK if they're on different circuits.
Yes. I erred by missing the "junction box" part of the statement about pig-tailed neutrals although I've seen that happen in main panels when all the busbar slots are full. That was a lot easier to fix than finding three neutrals wire-nutted, pigtailed and jammed tight, not in a junction box, but stuffed into a light switch box behind a light switch.
I've run into that situation with old wiring and remotely controlled X-10 switches more times than I care to remember. The original switch was a very shallow bodied snap switch, the X-10 switch was twice as big. There was *almost* enough room for the new switch and all the nutted together neutrals, as long as I didn't screw the switch down all the way.
When it came time to repaint the bathroom, I finally decide carve out space for a 2 gang box since I was plastering and painting anyway. This is old cloth covered wiring that doesn't tolerate too much abuse and there's nothing like wire-nutting and box-stuffing to torture that copper into breaking.
Fortunately, there's always been enough wire left intact in the box to pigtail the remains, even if it meant adding a 2 gang box to allow easy reach. But what happens when I break an old wire that can't be pigtailed in the box?
> >> If the two hots are on the *same* leg of the service, then the > >> neutral could be overloaded, because it will carry the *sum* of the > >> currents in the hot wires. This is a fire hazard.
> > Heh.... could always breaker the neutral!
> I know your tongue is in your cheek: however, while that would be a > clever way of making the circuit safe, at least fire-wise, I'm sure you > realize it could make it very, very unsafe, since it would possibly > leave an energized hot wire but a disconnected neutral.
> But hey, it's a fun thought experiment.
> (This is a similar problem to those very badly designed fuseboxes of > yesteryear that had fuses for both hot and neutral. My friend's house > has one of those, which can leave the hot energized but the neutral > disconnected. Wonder what genius came up with that design? His simple > but elegant solution is to overfuse the neutrals (w/30-amp fuses), > leaving 15 A fuses (actually circuit breakers in the form of a fuse) on > the hot side.)
I was reading about the English "ring" circuit the other day and how they abandoned the central fuse/breaker panel altogether and put fuses in each plug! It's remarkable, I think, that there's so much uniformity in electrical wiring. Keeping in mind that most regulatory bodies operate on the tombstone basis (enough people die, time to regulate something!) that means that it's more than likely somebody died for every rule they come up with.
I wonder how many electricians got their union card renewed by St. Peter to cause the "tied breaker" rules to come into existence for three-wire Edison circuits? Heck, how many elephants died in the AC v. DC war between Tesla and Edison? This electricity is lethal stuff.
I wonder how many people have been electrocuted since the electric age began. It's got to be impressive. Add in the people who were killed in fires or explosions caused by electrical ignition, and you've probably got a major US city's worth of deaths. No wonder why the Greeks reserved the lightning bolt for the capo di tutti capi, Zeus. Back then electricity killed people without providing much in the way of benefits. At least now we get some heat, light and TV power out of the deal and instead of Zeus, the Energizer Bunny is the new symbol of electric power.
>> >> If the two hots are on the *same* leg of the service, then the >> >> neutral could be overloaded, because it will carry the *sum* of the >> >> currents in the hot wires. This is a fire hazard.
>> > Heh.... could always breaker the neutral!
>> I know your tongue is in your cheek: however, while that would be a >> clever way of making the circuit safe, at least fire-wise, I'm sure you >> realize it could make it very, very unsafe, since it would possibly >> leave an energized hot wire but a disconnected neutral.
>> But hey, it's a fun thought experiment.
>> (This is a similar problem to those very badly designed fuseboxes of >> yesteryear that had fuses for both hot and neutral. My friend's house >> has one of those, which can leave the hot energized but the neutral >> disconnected. Wonder what genius came up with that design? His simple >> but elegant solution is to overfuse the neutrals (w/30-amp fuses), >> leaving 15 A fuses (actually circuit breakers in the form of a fuse) on >> the hot side.)
> I was reading about the English "ring" circuit the other day and how they > abandoned the central fuse/breaker panel altogether and put fuses in each > plug! It's remarkable, I think, that there's so much uniformity in > electrical wiring. Keeping in mind that most regulatory bodies operate on > the tombstone basis (enough people die, time to regulate something!) that > means that it's more than likely somebody died for every rule they come up > with.
> I wonder how many electricians got their union card renewed by St. Peter > to > cause the "tied breaker" rules to come into existence for three-wire > Edison > circuits? Heck, how many elephants died in the AC v. DC war between Tesla > and Edison? This electricity is lethal stuff.
> I wonder how many people have been electrocuted since the electric age > began. It's got to be impressive. Add in the people who were killed in > fires or explosions caused by electrical ignition, and you've probably got > a > major US city's worth of deaths. No wonder why the Greeks reserved the > lightning bolt for the capo di tutti capi, Zeus. Back then electricity > killed people without providing much in the way of benefits. At least now > we get some heat, light and TV power out of the deal and instead of Zeus, > the Energizer Bunny is the new symbol of electric power.
Well, now we have automobiles, good for 50,000 quick deaths a year, McD's, ciggies, and ethanol good for a few hundred thousand slow deaths a year, and for those who want lobotomization whilst slowly dying, we got RealityTV, JudgeJudy, JohnEdwards Cross Country, and all the rest.
Altho, I *do* miss Whitney Houston bellowing at her in-house dealer Bobby Brown for her crack pipe....
>The Daring Dufas wrote: >> Doug Miller wrote: >>> In article <hd4kot$v2...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Robert Green" >>> <robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote:
>>>> [...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an >>>> average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to >>>> power the >>>> oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only >>>> 110VAC.
>>> Electric water heaters have igniters?
>> Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters >> similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.
>> TDD
>right, but a gas water heater wouldn't need a 240VAC circuit to serve >it, either. So still only 2 wires plus ground.
>nate
How about an electric water heater with a timer to turn it off during the day? No igniter, but it still uses both voltages. -- 47 days until the winter solstice celebration
<robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote: >"Doug Miller" <spamb...@milmac.com> wrote in message >news:hd4nq3$k3e$1@news.eternal-september.org... >> In article <4af5bc2a$0$31262$607ed...@cv.net>, "Existential Angst" ><UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>> >Is a 3-wire bx cable leaving a panel *necessarily* an edison-type deal?
>> No. It could supply an appliance that has both 240V and 120V loads. >Examples >> include electric dryers (240V heating elements, 120V motor and controls) >and >> electric stoves (240V heating elements, 120V controls).
<robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote: >"Doug Miller" <spamb...@milmac.com> wrote in message >news:hd4nq3$k3e$1@news.eternal-september.org... >> In article <4af5bc2a$0$31262$607ed...@cv.net>, "Existential Angst" ><UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>> >Is a 3-wire bx cable leaving a panel *necessarily* an edison-type deal?
>> No. It could supply an appliance that has both 240V and 120V loads. >Examples >> include electric dryers (240V heating elements, 120V motor and controls) >and >> electric stoves (240V heating elements, 120V controls).
>What about air conditioner igniters? (-:
This air conditioner is a hybrid system that can run on either gas or electricity. Therefore, it has both an igniter and 240V service. You'd have this if you prefer gas, but that's unreliable.
>>> If the two hots are on the *same* leg of the service, then the neutral could >>> be overloaded, because it will carry the *sum* of the currents in the hot >>> wires. This is a fire hazard.
>>Heh.... could always breaker the neutral!
>How do you plan to do that?
Install a second service panel. Don't connect any hot wires to it, but connect one (or both if you need to) of the buses to the neutral in the main panel. Now you have a place for neutral breakers.
OK, that's not safe. Get a 3-phase panel (and breakers) and use the third "phase" for neutral.
>>>> If the two hots are on the *same* leg of the service, then the neutral >>>> could >>>> be overloaded, because it will carry the *sum* of the currents in the >>>> hot >>>> wires. This is a fire hazard.
>>>Heh.... could always breaker the neutral!
>>How do you plan to do that?
> Install a second service panel. Don't connect any hot wires to it, but > connect one (or both if you need to) of the buses to the neutral in > the main panel. Now you have a place for neutral breakers.
> OK, that's not safe. Get a 3-phase panel (and breakers) and use the > third "phase" for neutral.
Ingenious!
And, if Local 3 gets a hold of this idea and lobbies the NEC....... -- EA
Gary H wrote: > On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:41:21 -0500, "Robert Green" > <robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote:
>> "Doug Miller" <spamb...@milmac.com> wrote in message >> news:hd4nq3$k3e$1@news.eternal-september.org... >>> In article <4af5bc2a$0$31262$607ed...@cv.net>, "Existential Angst" >> <UNfit...@UNoptonline.net> wrote: >>>> Is a 3-wire bx cable leaving a panel *necessarily* an edison-type deal? >>> No. It could supply an appliance that has both 240V and 120V loads. >> Examples >>> include electric dryers (240V heating elements, 120V motor and controls) >> and >>> electric stoves (240V heating elements, 120V controls). >> What about air conditioner igniters? (-:
> If you have gas air conditioning.
Theoretically possible; my grandparents had a gas refrigerator. Worked well and quiet, too.
> Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the > backup, but I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC > and a neutral connection." I got caught fair and square. President > Bill taught me not to do what he did. I wonder what would have > happened had he confessed in graphic detail instead of lying? I > doubt it could have been any worse!
The cover-up gets you:
Said Bill Clinton to you Ms Lewinsky, "We don't want to leave clues like Kaczynski, Since you look such a mess, Use the hem of your dress, And wipe that stuff off your chinsky."
> >> >> If the two hots are on the *same* leg of the service, then the > >> >> neutral could be overloaded, because it will carry the *sum* of the > >> >> currents in the hot wires. This is a fire hazard.
> >> > Heh.... could always breaker the neutral!
> >> I know your tongue is in your cheek: however, while that would be a > >> clever way of making the circuit safe, at least fire-wise, I'm sure you > >> realize it could make it very, very unsafe, since it would possibly > >> leave an energized hot wire but a disconnected neutral.
> >> But hey, it's a fun thought experiment.
> >> (This is a similar problem to those very badly designed fuseboxes of > >> yesteryear that had fuses for both hot and neutral. My friend's house > >> has one of those, which can leave the hot energized but the neutral > >> disconnected. Wonder what genius came up with that design? His simple > >> but elegant solution is to overfuse the neutrals (w/30-amp fuses), > >> leaving 15 A fuses (actually circuit breakers in the form of a fuse) on > >> the hot side.)
> > I was reading about the English "ring" circuit the other day and how they > > abandoned the central fuse/breaker panel altogether and put fuses in each > > plug! It's remarkable, I think, that there's so much uniformity in > > electrical wiring. Keeping in mind that most regulatory bodies operate on > > the tombstone basis (enough people die, time to regulate something!) that > > means that it's more than likely somebody died for every rule they come up > > with.
> > I wonder how many electricians got their union card renewed by St. Peter > > to > > cause the "tied breaker" rules to come into existence for three-wire > > Edison > > circuits? Heck, how many elephants died in the AC v. DC war between Tesla > > and Edison? This electricity is lethal stuff.
> > I wonder how many people have been electrocuted since the electric age > > began. It's got to be impressive. Add in the people who were killed in > > fires or explosions caused by electrical ignition, and you've probably got > > a > > major US city's worth of deaths. No wonder why the Greeks reserved the > > lightning bolt for the capo di tutti capi, Zeus. Back then electricity > > killed people without providing much in the way of benefits. At least now > > we get some heat, light and TV power out of the deal and instead of Zeus, > > the Energizer Bunny is the new symbol of electric power.
> Well, now we have automobiles, good for 50,000 quick deaths a year, McD's, > ciggies, and ethanol good for a few hundred thousand slow deaths a year, and > for those who want lobotomization whilst slowly dying, we got RealityTV, > JudgeJudy, JohnEdwards Cross Country, and all the rest.
> Altho, I *do* miss Whitney Houston bellowing at her in-house dealer Bobby > Brown for her crack pipe....
> -- > EA
Whitney and Bobby, there's a "hot to neutral" ratio if there ever was one. Just trying to stay on topic . . . (-:
Robert Green wrote: > "The Daring Dufas" <the-daring-du...@stinky.net> wrote in message > news:hd4pfc$3iu$1@news.eternal-september.org... >> Doug Miller wrote: >>> In article <hd4kot$v2...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Robert Green" > <robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote: >>>> [...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an >>>> average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to > power the >>>> oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only > 110VAC. >>> Electric water heaters have igniters?
>> Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters >> similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.
>> TDD
> Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the backup, but > I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC and a neutral > connection." I got caught fair and square. President Bill taught me not to > do what he did. I wonder what would have happened had he confessed in > graphic detail instead of lying? I doubt it could have been any worse!
> -- > Bobby G.
He would have been worshiped and admired even more by the Leftist perverts. *snicker*
> Robert Green wrote: > > "The Daring Dufas" <the-daring-du...@stinky.net> wrote in message > > news:hd4pfc$3iu$1@news.eternal-september.org... > >> Doug Miller wrote: > >>> In article <hd4kot$v2...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Robert Green" > > <robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote: > >>>> [...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an > >>>> average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to > > power the > >>>> oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only > > 110VAC. > >>> Electric water heaters have igniters?
> >> Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters > >> similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.
> >> TDD
> > Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the backup, but > > I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC and a neutral > > connection." I got caught fair and square. President Bill taught me not to > > do what he did. I wonder what would have happened had he confessed in > > graphic detail instead of lying? I doubt it could have been any worse!
> > -- > > Bobby G.
> He would have been worshiped and admired even more by the Leftist > perverts. *snicker*
> TDD
Sorry, but I am thoroughly non-partisan. As for which is *really* the perv party, at least Clinton liked girls. Republicans preach one thing (sort of like Catholic priests) and then swing the other way. Mark Foley was hardly ever at work because he was "working" on young male pages. And then there's Larry "can't you hear me knocking" Craig, the gay airport bathroom sex pervert. The truth is that neither party can lay a claim to being more moral than the other. I'm an independent because both parties stink. (-:
But what bothers me most about the Clinton witch hunt is this: Two hundred or so FBI agents were running around looking for Bill's DNA on dresses when the SHOULD have been looking at the unusual number of foreigners suddenly interested in flying commercial jets. At least one agent did, and she got slapped down. They had they information they needed to foil that attack, but they were off on a witch hunt, living up to our Puritanical heritage. We got into a frenzy because a man lied about an affair. Worse, still, the entire country acted as if it was the first time in history that it ever happened!
Those murdering terrorist scumbags took advantage of our eternal partisan bickering and schoolyard fascination with sex to deal us a deadly blow. Those charged with protecting us were looking for clues to the wrong "blow" job and 3000 people blew up as a result. I think the nation's perverse interest in sex cost us dearly because it diverted precious resources away from the hunt for terrorists. If Clinton had come clean, (or been clean in the first place!) 9/11 might have been averted. If the Republicans, some of whom it turned out were far more dangerous sex deviants than Clinton, hadn't gone apeshi+ over a hummer, we might still have the World Trade Center. But we took our eyes off the ball and got slammed. Hard. It was inexcusable, and the sad part is we would do it again in a heartbeat. We've learned nothing.
So, that's what I meant by "I wonder what would have happened."
Robert Green wrote: > "The Daring Dufas" <the-daring-du...@stinky.net> wrote in message > news:hd79b5$6p6$2@news.eternal-september.org... >> Robert Green wrote: >>> "The Daring Dufas" <the-daring-du...@stinky.net> wrote in message >>> news:hd4pfc$3iu$1@news.eternal-september.org... >>>> Doug Miller wrote: >>>>> In article <hd4kot$v2...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Robert Green" >>> <robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote: >>>>>> [...] most of the 240VAC equipment in an >>>>>> average home is not pure 240VAC. In my panel they run neutrals to >>> power the >>>>>> oven timers, water heater igniters and other circuits needing only >>> 110VAC. >>>>> Electric water heaters have igniters?
>>>> Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters >>>> similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.
>>>> TDD >>> Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the backup, > but >>> I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC and a neutral >>> connection." I got caught fair and square. President Bill taught me > not to >>> do what he did. I wonder what would have happened had he confessed in >>> graphic detail instead of lying? I doubt it could have been any worse!
>>> -- >>> Bobby G.
>> He would have been worshiped and admired even more by the Leftist >> perverts. *snicker*
>> TDD
> Sorry, but I am thoroughly non-partisan. As for which is *really* the perv > party, at least Clinton liked girls. Republicans preach one thing (sort of > like Catholic priests) and then swing the other way. Mark Foley was hardly > ever at work because he was "working" on young male pages. And then there's > Larry "can't you hear me knocking" Craig, the gay airport bathroom sex > pervert. The truth is that neither party can lay a claim to being more > moral than the other. I'm an independent because both parties stink. (-:
> But what bothers me most about the Clinton witch hunt is this: Two hundred > or so FBI agents were running around looking for Bill's DNA on dresses when > the SHOULD have been looking at the unusual number of foreigners suddenly > interested in flying commercial jets. At least one agent did, and she got > slapped down. They had they information they needed to foil that attack, > but they were off on a witch hunt, living up to our Puritanical heritage. We > got into a frenzy because a man lied about an affair. Worse, still, the > entire country acted as if it was the first time in history that it ever > happened!
> Those murdering terrorist scumbags took advantage of our eternal partisan > bickering and schoolyard fascination with sex to deal us a deadly blow. > Those charged with protecting us were looking for clues to the wrong "blow" > job and 3000 people blew up as a result. I think the nation's perverse > interest in sex cost us dearly because it diverted precious resources away > from the hunt for terrorists. If Clinton had come clean, (or been clean in > the first place!) 9/11 might have been averted. If the Republicans, some of > whom it turned out were far more dangerous sex deviants than Clinton, hadn't > gone apeshi+ over a hummer, we might still have the World Trade Center. But > we took our eyes off the ball and got slammed. Hard. It was inexcusable, and > the sad part is we would do it again in a heartbeat. We've learned nothing.
> So, that's what I meant by "I wonder what would have happened."
> -- > Bobby G.
My brother "Uncle Monster" has a number of sayings called "Monsterisms" and one of them is: "Republicans disgust me but Democrats are special, they horrify me." I am in complete concordance with that sentiment. Our father was a Southern Republican and our mother was a New York Democrat so we grew up with the insanity of politics. "Republicans can't stay out of your bedroom and Democrats can't stay out of your wallet." Southern Republicans, by the way, make your general run of the Republican look liken a fairy when it comes to conservatism. Back when I was a damn hippie in college, I thought my father was the God awfullest bigot in the whole world, now I'm worse than he ever was.
In article <hd9up5$4q...@news.eternal-september.org>, the-daring-du...@peckerhead.net wrote: >Back when I was a damn hippie in college, I thought my father >was the God awfullest bigot in the whole world, now I'm worse >than he ever was.
Doug Miller wrote: > In article <hd9up5$4q...@news.eternal-september.org>, the-daring-du...@peckerhead.net wrote:
>> Back when I was a damn hippie in college, I thought my father >> was the God awfullest bigot in the whole world, now I'm worse >> than he ever was.
> We've noticed.
Thank you, thank you..... takes a bow. It's something you have to grow into.
"A Conservative is a Liberal who has been repeatedly sodomized by the government and decided that he won't tolerate it anymore. Liberals who stay that way afterwards are the weird ones who like it."
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