Anyone know if this idea progressed? ------------------------------
By FELICITY BARRINGER Published: January 11, 2008 SAN FRANCISCO - The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.
Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that will be required in new or substantially modified houses and buildings to manage electricity shortages.
The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators. The changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes.
Final approval is expected next month.
"You realize there are times - very rarely, once every few years - when you would be subject to a rotating outage and everything would crash including your computer and traffic lights, and you don't want to do that," said Arthur H. Rosenfeld, a member of the energy commission.
Reducing individual customers' electrical use - if necessary, involuntarily - could avoid that, Dr. Rosenfeld said. "If you can control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share the pain," he said, "there's a lot less pain to go around."
While the proposals have received little attention in California, the Internet and talk radio are abuzz with indignation at the idea.
The radio-controlled thermostat is not a new technology, though it is constantly being tweaked; the latest iterations were on display this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
Pacific Gas and Electric, the major utility in Northern California, already has a pilot program in Stockton that allows customers to choose to have their air-conditioning systems attached to a radio-controlled device to reduce use during periods when electricity rates are at their peak.
But the idea that a government would mandate use of these devices and reserve the power to override a building owner's wishes galls some people.
"This is an outrage," one Californian said in an e-mail message to Dr. Rosenfeld. "We need to build new facilities to handle the growth in this state, not become Big Brother to the citizens of California."
The broader stir on the Internet began when Joseph Somsel, a San Jose-based contributor to the publication American Thinker, wrote an article a week ago on the programmable communicating thermostat, or P.C.T.
Mr. Somsel went after the proposal with arguments that were by turns populist ("Come the next heat wave, the elites might be comfortably lolling in La Jolla's ocean breezes" while "the Central Valley's poor peons are baking in Bakersfield"), free-market ("P.C.T.'s will obscure the price signals to power plant developers") and civil libertarian ("the new P.C.T. requirement certainly seems to violate the 'a man's home is his castle' common-law dictum").
Word of the California proposal hit the outrage button in corners of the Internet, was written about in The North County Times in Southern California, and got a derisive mention on Wednesday on Rush Limbaugh's radio program.
The fact that similar radio-controlled technologies have been used on a voluntary basis in irrigation systems on farm fields and golf courses and in limited programs for buildings on Long Island is seldom mentioned in Internet postings that make liberal use of references of George Orwell's dystopian novel "1984" and "Big Brother," the omnipresent voice of Orwell's police state.
Ralph Cavanagh, an energy expert with the Natural Resources Defense Council, said in an interview that at a time of peak electricity use, "most people given a choice of two degrees of temperature setback and 14th-century living would happily embrace this capacity."
Mr. Somsel, in an interview Thursday, said he had done further research and was concerned that the radio signal - or the Internet instructions that would be sent, in an emergency, from utilities' central control stations to the broadcasters sending the FM signal - could be hacked into.
That is not possible, said Nicole Tam, a spokeswoman for P.G.& E. who works with the pilot program in Stockton. Radio pages "are encrypted and encoded," Ms. Tam said.
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:21:29 -0500, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote: > Anyone know if this idea progressed? >------------------------------
>By FELICITY BARRINGER >Published: January 11, 2008 >SAN FRANCISCO - The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.
>Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that will be required in new or substantially modified houses and buildings to manage electricity shortages.
>The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators. The changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes.
>Final approval is expected next month.
>"You realize there are times - very rarely, once every few years - when you would be subject to a rotating outage and everything would crash including your computer and traffic lights, and you don't want to do that," said Arthur H. Rosenfeld, a member of the energy commission.
>Reducing individual customers' electrical use - if necessary, involuntarily - could avoid that, Dr. Rosenfeld said. "If you can control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share the pain," he said, "there's a lot less pain to go around."
>While the proposals have received little attention in California, the Internet and talk radio are abuzz with indignation at the idea.
>The radio-controlled thermostat is not a new technology, though it is constantly being tweaked; the latest iterations were on display this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
>Pacific Gas and Electric, the major utility in Northern California, already has a pilot program in Stockton that allows customers to choose to have their air-conditioning systems attached to a radio-controlled device to reduce use during periods when electricity rates are at their peak.
>But the idea that a government would mandate use of these devices and reserve the power to override a building owner's wishes galls some people.
>"This is an outrage," one Californian said in an e-mail message to Dr. Rosenfeld. "We need to build new facilities to handle the growth in this state, not become Big Brother to the citizens of California."
>The broader stir on the Internet began when Joseph Somsel, a San Jose-based contributor to the publication American Thinker, wrote an article a week ago on the programmable communicating thermostat, or P.C.T.
>Mr. Somsel went after the proposal with arguments that were by turns populist ("Come the next heat wave, the elites might be comfortably lolling in La Jolla's ocean breezes" while "the Central Valley's poor peons are baking in Bakersfield"), free-market ("P.C.T.'s will obscure the price signals to power plant developers") and civil libertarian ("the new P.C.T. requirement certainly seems to violate the 'a man's home is his castle' common-law dictum").
>Word of the California proposal hit the outrage button in corners of the Internet, was written about in The North County Times in Southern California, and got a derisive mention on Wednesday on Rush Limbaugh's radio program.
>The fact that similar radio-controlled technologies have been used on a voluntary basis in irrigation systems on farm fields and golf courses and in limited programs for buildings on Long Island is seldom mentioned in Internet postings that make liberal use of references of George Orwell's dystopian novel "1984" and "Big Brother," the omnipresent voice of Orwell's police state.
>Ralph Cavanagh, an energy expert with the Natural Resources Defense Council, said in an interview that at a time of peak electricity use, "most people given a choice of two degrees of temperature setback and 14th-century living would happily embrace this capacity."
>Mr. Somsel, in an interview Thursday, said he had done further research and was concerned that the radio signal - or the Internet instructions that would be sent, in an emergency, from utilities' central control stations to the broadcasters sending the FM signal - could be hacked into.
>That is not possible, said Nicole Tam, a spokeswoman for P.G.& E. who works with the pilot program in Stockton. Radio pages "are encrypted and encoded," Ms. Tam said.
In California it may not be as bad as it sounds, not many places there have freezing weather.
And I repeat, the thermostats are more to keep more than a fraction of the A/C or heat pump compressors from starting at the same time (or resistance heat furnaces from _being_ on).
This has been a voluntary program here, meant to avoid having to install a(nother) gas turbine generator.
It should not even be needed on gas or oil furnaces.
> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:21:29 -0500, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote: > > Anyone know if this idea progressed? > >------------------------------
> >By FELICITY BARRINGER > >Published: January 11, 2008 > >SAN FRANCISCO - The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.
> >Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that will be required in new or substantially modified houses and buildings to manage electricity shortages.
> >The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators. The changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes.
> >Final approval is expected next month.
> >"You realize there are times - very rarely, once every few years - when you would be subject to a rotating outage and everything would crash including your computer and traffic lights, and you don't want to do that," said Arthur H. Rosenfeld, a member of the energy commission.
> >Reducing individual customers' electrical use - if necessary, involuntarily - could avoid that, Dr. Rosenfeld said. "If you can control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share the pain," he said, "there's a lot less pain to go around."
> >While the proposals have received little attention in California, the Internet and talk radio are abuzz with indignation at the idea.
> >The radio-controlled thermostat is not a new technology, though it is constantly being tweaked; the latest iterations were on display this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
> >Pacific Gas and Electric, the major utility in Northern California, already has a pilot program in Stockton that allows customers to choose to have their air-conditioning systems attached to a radio-controlled device to reduce use during periods when electricity rates are at their peak.
> >But the idea that a government would mandate use of these devices and reserve the power to override a building owner's wishes galls some people.
> >"This is an outrage," one Californian said in an e-mail message to Dr. Rosenfeld. "We need to build new facilities to handle the growth in this state, not become Big Brother to the citizens of California."
> >The broader stir on the Internet began when Joseph Somsel, a San Jose-based contributor to the publication American Thinker, wrote an article a week ago on the programmable communicating thermostat, or P.C.T.
> >Mr. Somsel went after the proposal with arguments that were by turns populist ("Come the next heat wave, the elites might be comfortably lolling in La Jolla's ocean breezes" while "the Central Valley's poor peons are baking in Bakersfield"), free-market ("P.C.T.'s will obscure the price signals to power plant developers") and civil libertarian ("the new P.C.T. requirement certainly seems to violate the 'a man's home is his castle' common-law dictum").
> >Word of the California proposal hit the outrage button in corners of the Internet, was written about in The North County Times in Southern California, and got a derisive mention on Wednesday on Rush Limbaugh's radio program.
> >The fact that similar radio-controlled technologies have been used on a voluntary basis in irrigation systems on farm fields and golf courses and in limited programs for buildings on Long Island is seldom mentioned in Internet postings that make liberal use of references of George Orwell's dystopian novel "1984" and "Big Brother," the omnipresent voice of Orwell's police state.
> >Ralph Cavanagh, an energy expert with the Natural Resources Defense Council, said in an interview that at a time of peak electricity use, "most people given a choice of two degrees of temperature setback and 14th-century living would happily embrace this capacity."
> >Mr. Somsel, in an interview Thursday, said he had done further research and was concerned that the radio signal - or the Internet instructions that would be sent, in an emergency, from utilities' central control stations to the broadcasters sending the FM signal - could be hacked into.
> >That is not possible, said Nicole Tam, a spokeswoman for P.G.& E. who works with the pilot program in Stockton. Radio pages "are encrypted and encoded," Ms. Tam said.
> In California it may not be as bad as it sounds, not > many places there have freezing weather.
> And I repeat, the thermostats are more to keep > more than a fraction of the A/C or heat pump compressors > from starting at the same time (or resistance heat furnaces > from _being_ on).
> This has been a voluntary program here, meant > to avoid having to install a(nother) gas turbine generator.
> It should not even be needed on gas or oil furnaces.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
California brought this on by environmentalist attacks on coal, oil, and nuclear power plants. With no new power plants being buitl, ultimately California will have to start rationing power
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:30:17 -0800 (PST), "alanmc95...@yahoo.com"
<alanmc95...@yahoo.com> wrote: >On Nov 7, 2:32 pm, "I M @ good guy" <I...@good.guy> wrote: >> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:21:29 -0500, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote: >> > Anyone know if this idea progressed? >> >------------------------------
>> >By FELICITY BARRINGER >> >Published: January 11, 2008 >> >SAN FRANCISCO - The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.
>> >Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that will be required in new or substantially modified houses and buildings to manage electricity shortages.
>> >The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators. The changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset temperatures when
the price of electricity is soaring. Customers could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes.
>> >"You realize there are times - very rarely, once every few years - when you would be subject to a rotating outage and everything would crash including your computer and traffic lights, and you don't want to do that," said Arthur H. Rosenfeld, a member of the energy commission.
>> >Reducing individual customers' electrical use - if necessary, involuntarily - could avoid that, Dr. Rosenfeld said. "If you can control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share the pain," he said, "there's a lot less pain to go around."
>> >While the proposals have received little attention in California, the Internet and talk radio are abuzz with indignation at the idea.
>> >The radio-controlled thermostat is not a new technology, though it is constantly being tweaked; the latest iterations were on display this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
>> >Pacific Gas and Electric, the major utility in Northern California, already has a pilot program in Stockton that allows customers to choose to have their air-conditioning systems attached to a radio-controlled device to reduce use during periods when electricity rates are at their peak.
>> >But the idea that a government would mandate use of these devices and reserve the power to override a building owner's wishes galls some people.
>> >"This is an outrage," one Californian said in an e-mail message to Dr. Rosenfeld. "We need to build new facilities to handle the growth in this state, not become Big Brother to the citizens of California."
>> >The broader stir on the Internet began when Joseph Somsel, a San Jose-based contributor to the publication American Thinker, wrote an article a week ago on the programmable communicating thermostat, or P.C.T.
>> >Mr. Somsel went after the proposal with arguments that were by turns populist ("Come the next heat wave, the elites might be comfortably lolling in La Jolla's ocean breezes" while "the Central Valley's poor peons are baking in Bakersfield"), free-market ("P.C.T.'s will obscure the price signals to power plant developers") and
civil libertarian ("the new P.C.T. requirement certainly seems to violate the 'a man's home is his castle' common-law dictum").
>> >Word of the California proposal hit the outrage button in corners of the Internet, was written about in The North County Times in Southern California, and got a derisive mention on Wednesday on Rush Limbaugh's radio program.
>> >The fact that similar radio-controlled technologies have been used on a voluntary basis in irrigation systems on farm fields and golf courses and in limited programs for buildings on Long Island is seldom mentioned in Internet postings that make liberal use of references of George Orwell's dystopian novel "1984" and "Big
Brother," the omnipresent voice of Orwell's police state.
>> >Ralph Cavanagh, an energy expert with the Natural Resources Defense Council, said in an interview that at a time of peak electricity use, "most people given a choice of two degrees of temperature setback and 14th-century living would happily embrace this capacity."
>> >Mr. Somsel, in an interview Thursday, said he had done further research and was concerned that the radio signal - or the Internet instructions that would be sent, in an emergency, from utilities' central control stations to the broadcasters sending the FM signal - could be hacked into.
>> >That is not possible, said Nicole Tam, a spokeswoman for P.G.& E. who works with the pilot program in Stockton. Radio pages "are encrypted and encoded," Ms. Tam said.
>> In California it may not be as bad as it sounds, not >> many places there have freezing weather.
>> And I repeat, the thermostats are more to keep >> more than a fraction of the A/C or heat pump compressors >> from starting at the same time (or resistance heat furnaces >> from _being_ on).
>> This has been a voluntary program here, meant >> to avoid having to install a(nother) gas turbine generator.
>> It should not even be needed on gas or oil furnaces.- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -
> California brought this on by environmentalist attacks on coal, >oil, and nuclear power plants. >With no new power plants being buitl, ultimately California will have >to start rationing power
I think it is more related to the speed of growth of the population, I thought L.A. County was large and congested when I left in 1965, I can't even imagine the population being double.
That area had to restrict emissions of any kind, but power can be easily transmitted 100 miles or so. Any fast growing area has a problem with all utilities and infrastructure. The fact that such a large part of the population growth was low earning jobs, and even many who were not committed to staying there, did not help fund the new construction needed.
A lot of people blame Enron or the greenies, I blame the engineers that ignored the problem of air conditioners either running constantly because the units were undersized, or because random time starting of motors that draw up to seven times as much current while starting than while running.
The controllers the utility wants to install can make a big difference, and they are not only for A/C, the water heaters are also a problem, only a different kind of problem.
Some way to spread starting times for motors should have been built into the units and/or the grid a long time ago, and water heaters should have had oversized storage and only run during off peak hours or only one-tenth be on at any one time.
Surely anybody can see how random changes in current draw all happening at the same instant can exceed the capacity of the system no matter how big it is.
I would gladly allow the controller to be installed if I had central air, but it is not even offered without central air.
If the grid would have been designed with marker pulses from the beginning, the appliances could have built in controllers.
Even having higher rates for peak use is not a help, people need the appliances when they need them.
> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:30:17 -0800 (PST), "alanmc95...@yahoo.com" > <alanmc95...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On Nov 7, 2:32 pm, "I M @ good guy" <I...@good.guy> wrote: >>> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:21:29 -0500, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> >>> wrote: >>> > Anyone know if this idea progressed? >>> >------------------------------
>>> >By FELICITY BARRINGER >>> >Published: January 11, 2008 >>> >SAN FRANCISCO - The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" >>> >was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.
>>> >Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the >>> >emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending >>> >temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that >>> >will be required in new or substantially modified houses and >>> >buildings to manage electricity shortages.
>>> >The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the >>> >California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades >>> >has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, >>> >like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators. The >>> >changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset >>> >temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers >>> >could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in >>> >emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes. >>> >Final approval is expected next month.
>>> >"You realize there are times - very rarely, once every few years - >>> >when you would be subject to a rotating outage and everything >>> >would crash including your computer and traffic lights, and you >>> >don't want to do that," said Arthur H. Rosenfeld, a member of the >>> >energy commission.
>>> >Reducing individual customers' electrical use - if necessary, >>> >involuntarily - could avoid that, Dr. Rosenfeld said. "If you can >>> >control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share >>> >the pain," he said, "there's a lot less pain to go around."
>>> >While the proposals have received little attention in California, >>> >the Internet and talk radio are abuzz with indignation at the >>> >idea.
>>> >The radio-controlled thermostat is not a new technology, though it >>> >is constantly being tweaked; the latest iterations were on display >>> >this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
>>> >Pacific Gas and Electric, the major utility in Northern >>> >California, already has a pilot program in Stockton that allows >>> >customers to choose to have their air-conditioning systems >>> >attached to a radio-controlled device to reduce use during periods >>> >when electricity rates are at their peak.
>>> >But the idea that a government would mandate use of these devices >>> >and reserve the power to override a building owner's wishes galls >>> >some people.
>>> >"This is an outrage," one Californian said in an e-mail message to >>> >Dr. Rosenfeld. "We need to build new facilities to handle the >>> >growth in this state, not become Big Brother to the citizens of >>> >California."
>>> >The broader stir on the Internet began when Joseph Somsel, a San >>> >Jose-based contributor to the publication American Thinker, wrote >>> >an article a week ago on the programmable communicating >>> >thermostat, or P.C.T.
>>> >Mr. Somsel went after the proposal with arguments that were by >>> >turns populist ("Come the next heat wave, the elites might be >>> >comfortably lolling in La Jolla's ocean breezes" while "the >>> >Central Valley's poor peons are baking in Bakersfield"), >>> >free-market ("P.C.T.'s will obscure the price signals to power >>> >plant developers") and civil libertarian ("the new P.C.T. >>> >requirement certainly seems to violate the 'a man's home is his >>> >castle' common-law dictum"). Word of the California proposal hit >>> >the outrage button in corners of the Internet, was written about >>> >in The North County Times in Southern California, and got a >>> >derisive mention on Wednesday on Rush Limbaugh's radio program.
>>> >The fact that similar radio-controlled technologies have been used >>> >on a voluntary basis in irrigation systems on farm fields and golf >>> >courses and in limited programs for buildings on Long Island is >>> >seldom mentioned in Internet postings that make liberal use of >>> >references of George Orwell's dystopian novel "1984" and "Big >>> >Brother," the omnipresent voice of Orwell's police state. Ralph >>> >Cavanagh, an energy expert with the Natural Resources Defense >>> >Council, said in an interview that at a time of peak electricity >>> >use, "most people given a choice of two degrees of temperature >>> >setback and 14th-century living would happily embrace this >>> >capacity."
>>> >Mr. Somsel, in an interview Thursday, said he had done further >>> >research and was concerned that the radio signal - or the Internet >>> >instructions that would be sent, in an emergency, from utilities' >>> >central control stations to the broadcasters sending the FM signal >>> >- could be hacked into.
>>> >That is not possible, said Nicole Tam, a spokeswoman for P.G.& E. >>> >who works with the pilot program in Stockton. Radio pages "are >>> >encrypted and encoded," Ms. Tam said.
>>> In California it may not be as bad as it sounds, not >>> many places there have freezing weather.
>>> And I repeat, the thermostats are more to keep >>> more than a fraction of the A/C or heat pump compressors >>> from starting at the same time (or resistance heat furnaces >>> from _being_ on).
>>> This has been a voluntary program here, meant >>> to avoid having to install a(nother) gas turbine generator.
>>> It should not even be needed on gas or oil furnaces.- Hide quoted >>> text -
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> California brought this on by environmentalist attacks on coal, >>oil, and nuclear power plants. >>With no new power plants being buitl, ultimately California will have >>to start rationing power
> I think it is more related to the speed of growth > of the population, I thought L.A. County was large > and congested when I left in 1965, I can't even > imagine the population being double.
> That area had to restrict emissions of any kind, > but power can be easily transmitted 100 miles or so. > Any fast growing area has a problem with all > utilities and infrastructure. > The fact that such a large part of the population > growth was low earning jobs, and even many who > were not committed to staying there, did not help > fund the new construction needed.
> A lot of people blame Enron or the greenies, > I blame the engineers that ignored the problem > of air conditioners either running constantly > because the units were undersized, or because > random time starting of motors that draw up to > seven times as much current while starting than > while running.
> The controllers the utility wants to install > can make a big difference, and they are not only > for A/C, the water heaters are also a problem, > only a different kind of problem.
> Some way to spread starting times for motors > should have been built into the units and/or the > grid a long time ago, and water heaters should > have had oversized storage and only run during > off peak hours or only one-tenth be on at any > one time.
> Surely anybody can see how random changes > in current draw all happening at the same instant > can exceed the capacity of the system no matter > how big it is.
> I would gladly allow the controller to be > installed if I had central air, but it is not even > offered without central air.
> If the grid would have been designed with > marker pulses from the beginning, the appliances > could have built in controllers.
> Even having higher rates for peak use is not > a help, people need the appliances when they > need them.
The Enron thing was the legislators fault from what I read. They insisted that spot prices of power be used instead of any long term contracts. Guess what happens to spot prices when there is a shortage.
> > On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:30:17 -0800 (PST), "alanmc95...@yahoo.com" > > <alanmc95...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>On Nov 7, 2:32 pm, "I M @ good guy" <I...@good.guy> wrote: > >>> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:21:29 -0500, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > Anyone know if this idea progressed? > >>> >------------------------------
> >>> >By FELICITY BARRINGER > >>> >Published: January 11, 2008 > >>> >SAN FRANCISCO - The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" > >>> >was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.
> >>> >Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the > >>> >emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending > >>> >temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that > >>> >will be required in new or substantially modified houses and > >>> >buildings to manage electricity shortages.
> >>> >The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the > >>> >California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades > >>> >has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, > >>> >like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators. The > >>> >changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset > >>> >temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers > >>> >could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in > >>> >emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes. > >>> >Final approval is expected next month.
> >>> >"You realize there are times - very rarely, once every few years - > >>> >when you would be subject to a rotating outage and everything > >>> >would crash including your computer and traffic lights, and you > >>> >don't want to do that," said Arthur H. Rosenfeld, a member of the > >>> >energy commission.
> >>> >Reducing individual customers' electrical use - if necessary, > >>> >involuntarily - could avoid that, Dr. Rosenfeld said. "If you can > >>> >control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share > >>> >the pain," he said, "there's a lot less pain to go around."
> >>> >While the proposals have received little attention in California, > >>> >the Internet and talk radio are abuzz with indignation at the > >>> >idea.
> >>> >The radio-controlled thermostat is not a new technology, though it > >>> >is constantly being tweaked; the latest iterations were on display > >>> >this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
> >>> >Pacific Gas and Electric, the major utility in Northern > >>> >California, already has a pilot program in Stockton that allows > >>> >customers to choose to have their air-conditioning systems > >>> >attached to a radio-controlled device to reduce use during periods > >>> >when electricity rates are at their peak.
> >>> >But the idea that a government would mandate use of these devices > >>> >and reserve the power to override a building owner's wishes galls > >>> >some people.
> >>> >"This is an outrage," one Californian said in an e-mail message to > >>> >Dr. Rosenfeld. "We need to build new facilities to handle the > >>> >growth in this state, not become Big Brother to the citizens of > >>> >California."
> >>> >The broader stir on the Internet began when Joseph Somsel, a San > >>> >Jose-based contributor to the publication American Thinker, wrote > >>> >an article a week ago on the programmable communicating > >>> >thermostat, or P.C.T.
> >>> >Mr. Somsel went after the proposal with arguments that were by > >>> >turns populist ("Come the next heat wave, the elites might be > >>> >comfortably lolling in La Jolla's ocean breezes" while "the > >>> >Central Valley's poor peons are baking in Bakersfield"), > >>> >free-market ("P.C.T.'s will obscure the price signals to power > >>> >plant developers") and civil libertarian ("the new P.C.T. > >>> >requirement certainly seems to violate the 'a man's home is his > >>> >castle' common-law dictum"). Word of the California proposal hit > >>> >the outrage button in corners of the Internet, was written about > >>> >in The North County Times in Southern California, and got a > >>> >derisive mention on Wednesday on Rush Limbaugh's radio program.
> >>> >The fact that similar radio-controlled technologies have been used > >>> >on a voluntary basis in irrigation systems on farm fields and golf > >>> >courses and in limited programs for buildings on Long Island is > >>> >seldom mentioned in Internet postings that make liberal use of > >>> >references of George Orwell's dystopian novel "1984" and "Big > >>> >Brother," the omnipresent voice of Orwell's police state. Ralph > >>> >Cavanagh, an energy expert with the Natural Resources Defense > >>> >Council, said in an interview that at a time of peak electricity > >>> >use, "most people given a choice of two degrees of temperature > >>> >setback and 14th-century living would happily embrace this > >>> >capacity."
> >>> >Mr. Somsel, in an interview Thursday, said he had done further > >>> >research and was concerned that the radio signal - or the Internet > >>> >instructions that would be sent, in an emergency, from utilities' > >>> >central control stations to the broadcasters sending the FM signal > >>> >- could be hacked into.
> >>> >That is not possible, said Nicole Tam, a spokeswoman for P.G.& E. > >>> >who works with the pilot program in Stockton. Radio pages "are > >>> >encrypted and encoded," Ms. Tam said.
> >>> In California it may not be as bad as it sounds, not > >>> many places there have freezing weather.
> >>> And I repeat, the thermostats are more to keep > >>> more than a fraction of the A/C or heat pump compressors > >>> from starting at the same time (or resistance heat furnaces > >>> from _being_ on).
> >>> This has been a voluntary program here, meant > >>> to avoid having to install a(nother) gas turbine generator.
> >>> It should not even be needed on gas or oil furnaces.- Hide quoted > >>> text -
> >>> - Show quoted text -
> >> California brought this on by environmentalist attacks on coal, > >>oil, and nuclear power plants. > >>With no new power plants being buitl, ultimately California will have > >>to start rationing power
> > I think it is more related to the speed of growth > > of the population, I thought L.A. County was large > > and congested when I left in 1965, I can't even > > imagine the population being double.
> > That area had to restrict emissions of any kind, > > but power can be easily transmitted 100 miles or so. > > Any fast growing area has a problem with all > > utilities and infrastructure. > > The fact that such a large part of the population > > growth was low earning jobs, and even many who > > were not committed to staying there, did not help > > fund the new construction needed.
> > A lot of people blame Enron or the greenies, > > I blame the engineers that ignored the problem > > of air conditioners either running constantly > > because the units were undersized, or because > > random time starting of motors that draw up to > > seven times as much current while starting than > > while running.
> > The controllers the utility wants to install > > can make a big difference, and they are not only > > for A/C, the water heaters are also a problem, > > only a different kind of problem.
> > Some way to spread starting times for motors > > should have been built into the units and/or the > > grid a long time ago, and water heaters should > > have had oversized storage and only run during > > off peak hours or only one-tenth be on at any > > one time.
> > Surely anybody can see how random changes > > in current draw all happening at the same instant > > can exceed the capacity of the system no matter > > how big it is.
> > I would gladly allow the controller to be > > installed if I had central air, but it is not even > > offered without central air.
> > If the grid would have been designed with > > marker pulses from the beginning, the appliances > > could have built in controllers.
> > Even having higher rates for peak use is not > > a help, people need the appliances when they > > need them.
> The Enron thing was the legislators fault from what I read. They insisted that spot prices of power be used instead of any long term contracts. Guess what happens to spot prices when there is a shortage.
Yeah, Enron was such a good guy. They were capitalists, after all, and capitalists always make the moral, right decision. And the bigger the company, the more they have the good of the people guiding them, right?
Tell me, why did Enron's accouting firm shred the documents? Why did some of Enron's executives go to prison?
James wrote: > I M @ good guy wrote: >> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:30:17 -0800 (PST), "alanmc95...@yahoo.com" >> <alanmc95...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Nov 7, 2:32 pm, "I M @ good guy" <I...@good.guy> wrote: >>>> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:21:29 -0500, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Anyone know if this idea progressed? >>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> By FELICITY BARRINGER >>>>> Published: January 11, 2008 >>>>> SAN FRANCISCO - The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" >>>>> was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.
>>>>> Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the >>>>> emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending >>>>> temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that >>>>> will be required in new or substantially modified houses and >>>>> buildings to manage electricity shortages.
>>>>> The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the >>>>> California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades >>>>> has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, >>>>> like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators. The >>>>> changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset >>>>> temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers >>>>> could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in >>>>> emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes. >>>>> Final approval is expected next month.
>>>>> "You realize there are times - very rarely, once every few years - >>>>> when you would be subject to a rotating outage and everything >>>>> would crash including your computer and traffic lights, and you >>>>> don't want to do that," said Arthur H. Rosenfeld, a member of the >>>>> energy commission.
>>>>> Reducing individual customers' electrical use - if necessary, >>>>> involuntarily - could avoid that, Dr. Rosenfeld said. "If you can >>>>> control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share >>>>> the pain," he said, "there's a lot less pain to go around."
>>>>> While the proposals have received little attention in California, >>>>> the Internet and talk radio are abuzz with indignation at the >>>>> idea.
>>>>> The radio-controlled thermostat is not a new technology, though it >>>>> is constantly being tweaked; the latest iterations were on display >>>>> this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
>>>>> Pacific Gas and Electric, the major utility in Northern >>>>> California, already has a pilot program in Stockton that allows >>>>> customers to choose to have their air-conditioning systems >>>>> attached to a radio-controlled device to reduce use during periods >>>>> when electricity rates are at their peak.
>>>>> But the idea that a government would mandate use of these devices >>>>> and reserve the power to override a building owner's wishes galls >>>>> some people.
>>>>> "This is an outrage," one Californian said in an e-mail message to >>>>> Dr. Rosenfeld. "We need to build new facilities to handle the >>>>> growth in this state, not become Big Brother to the citizens of >>>>> California."
>>>>> The broader stir on the Internet began when Joseph Somsel, a San >>>>> Jose-based contributor to the publication American Thinker, wrote >>>>> an article a week ago on the programmable communicating >>>>> thermostat, or P.C.T.
>>>>> Mr. Somsel went after the proposal with arguments that were by >>>>> turns populist ("Come the next heat wave, the elites might be >>>>> comfortably lolling in La Jolla's ocean breezes" while "the >>>>> Central Valley's poor peons are baking in Bakersfield"), >>>>> free-market ("P.C.T.'s will obscure the price signals to power >>>>> plant developers") and civil libertarian ("the new P.C.T. >>>>> requirement certainly seems to violate the 'a man's home is his >>>>> castle' common-law dictum"). Word of the California proposal hit >>>>> the outrage button in corners of the Internet, was written about >>>>> in The North County Times in Southern California, and got a >>>>> derisive mention on Wednesday on Rush Limbaugh's radio program.
>>>>> The fact that similar radio-controlled technologies have been used >>>>> on a voluntary basis in irrigation systems on farm fields and golf >>>>> courses and in limited programs for buildings on Long Island is >>>>> seldom mentioned in Internet postings that make liberal use of >>>>> references of George Orwell's dystopian novel "1984" and "Big >>>>> Brother," the omnipresent voice of Orwell's police state. Ralph >>>>> Cavanagh, an energy expert with the Natural Resources Defense >>>>> Council, said in an interview that at a time of peak electricity >>>>> use, "most people given a choice of two degrees of temperature >>>>> setback and 14th-century living would happily embrace this >>>>> capacity."
>>>>> Mr. Somsel, in an interview Thursday, said he had done further >>>>> research and was concerned that the radio signal - or the Internet >>>>> instructions that would be sent, in an emergency, from utilities' >>>>> central control stations to the broadcasters sending the FM signal >>>>> - could be hacked into.
>>>>> That is not possible, said Nicole Tam, a spokeswoman for P.G.& E. >>>>> who works with the pilot program in Stockton. Radio pages "are >>>>> encrypted and encoded," Ms. Tam said.
>>>> In California it may not be as bad as it sounds, not >>>> many places there have freezing weather.
>>>> And I repeat, the thermostats are more to keep >>>> more than a fraction of the A/C or heat pump compressors >>>> from starting at the same time (or resistance heat furnaces >>>> from _being_ on).
>>>> This has been a voluntary program here, meant >>>> to avoid having to install a(nother) gas turbine generator.
>>>> It should not even be needed on gas or oil furnaces.- Hide quoted >>>> text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> California brought this on by environmentalist attacks on coal, >>> oil, and nuclear power plants. >>> With no new power plants being buitl, ultimately California will >>> have to start rationing power
>> I think it is more related to the speed of growth >> of the population, I thought L.A. County was large >> and congested when I left in 1965, I can't even >> imagine the population being double.
>> That area had to restrict emissions of any kind, >> but power can be easily transmitted 100 miles or so. >> Any fast growing area has a problem with all >> utilities and infrastructure. >> The fact that such a large part of the population >> growth was low earning jobs, and even many who >> were not committed to staying there, did not help >> fund the new construction needed.
>> A lot of people blame Enron or the greenies, >> I blame the engineers that ignored the problem >> of air conditioners either running constantly >> because the units were undersized, or because >> random time starting of motors that draw up to >> seven times as much current while starting than >> while running.
>> The controllers the utility wants to install >> can make a big difference, and they are not only >> for A/C, the water heaters are also a problem, >> only a different kind of problem.
>> Some way to spread starting times for motors >> should have been built into the units and/or the >> grid a long time ago, and water heaters should >> have had oversized storage and only run during >> off peak hours or only one-tenth be on at any >> one time.
>> Surely anybody can see how random changes >> in current draw all happening at the same instant >> can exceed the capacity of the system no matter >> how big it is.
>> I would gladly allow the controller to be >> installed if I had central air, but it is not even >> offered without central air.
>> If the grid would have been designed with >> marker pulses from the beginning, the appliances >> could have built in controllers.
>> Even having higher rates for peak use is not >> a help, people need the appliances when they >> need them.
> The Enron thing was the legislators fault from what I read. They > insisted that spot prices of power be used instead of any long term > contracts. Guess what happens to spot prices when there is a > shortage.
erschroedin...@gmail.com wrote: > On Nov 8, 11:16 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote: >> I M @ good guy wrote:
>> > On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:30:17 -0800 (PST), "alanmc95...@yahoo.com" >> > <alanmc95...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>On Nov 7, 2:32 pm, "I M @ good guy" <I...@good.guy> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:21:29 -0500, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> > Anyone know if this idea progressed? >> >>> >------------------------------
>> >>> >By FELICITY BARRINGER >> >>> >Published: January 11, 2008 >> >>> >SAN FRANCISCO - The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" >> >>> >was that outside forces had taken control of your television >> >>> >set.
>> >>> >Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the >> >>> >emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending >> >>> >temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that >> >>> >will be required in new or substantially modified houses and >> >>> >buildings to manage electricity shortages.
>> >>> >The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the >> >>> >California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades >> >>> >has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, >> >>> >like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators. The >> >>> >changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset >> >>> >temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers >> >>> >could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in >> >>> >emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes. >> >>> >Final approval is expected next month.
>> >>> >"You realize there are times - very rarely, once every few >> >>> >years - when you would be subject to a rotating outage and >> >>> >everything would crash including your computer and traffic >> >>> >lights, and you don't want to do that," said Arthur H. >> >>> >Rosenfeld, a member of the energy commission.
>> >>> >Reducing individual customers' electrical use - if necessary, >> >>> >involuntarily - could avoid that, Dr. Rosenfeld said. "If you >> >>> >can control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state >> >>> >share the pain," he said, "there's a lot less pain to go >> >>> >around."
>> >>> >While the proposals have received little attention in >> >>> >California, the Internet and talk radio are abuzz with >> >>> >indignation at the idea.
>> >>> >The radio-controlled thermostat is not a new technology, though >> >>> >it is constantly being tweaked; the latest iterations were on >> >>> >display this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
>> >>> >Pacific Gas and Electric, the major utility in Northern >> >>> >California, already has a pilot program in Stockton that allows >> >>> >customers to choose to have their air-conditioning systems >> >>> >attached to a radio-controlled device to reduce use during >> >>> >periods when electricity rates are at their peak.
>> >>> >But the idea that a government would mandate use of these >> >>> >devices and reserve the power to override a building owner's >> >>> >wishes galls some people.
>> >>> >"This is an outrage," one Californian said in an e-mail message >> >>> >to Dr. Rosenfeld. "We need to build new facilities to handle the >> >>> >growth in this state, not become Big Brother to the citizens of >> >>> >California."
>> >>> >The broader stir on the Internet began when Joseph Somsel, a San >> >>> >Jose-based contributor to the publication American Thinker, >> >>> >wrote an article a week ago on the programmable communicating >> >>> >thermostat, or P.C.T.
>> >>> >Mr. Somsel went after the proposal with arguments that were by >> >>> >turns populist ("Come the next heat wave, the elites might be >> >>> >comfortably lolling in La Jolla's ocean breezes" while "the >> >>> >Central Valley's poor peons are baking in Bakersfield"), >> >>> >free-market ("P.C.T.'s will obscure the price signals to power >> >>> >plant developers") and civil libertarian ("the new P.C.T. >> >>> >requirement certainly seems to violate the 'a man's home is his >> >>> >castle' common-law dictum"). Word of the California proposal hit >> >>> >the outrage button in corners of the Internet, was written about >> >>> >in The North County Times in Southern California, and got a >> >>> >derisive mention on Wednesday on Rush Limbaugh's radio program.
>> >>> >The fact that similar radio-controlled technologies have been >> >>> >used on a voluntary basis in irrigation systems on farm fields >> >>> >and golf courses and in limited programs for buildings on Long >> >>> >Island is seldom mentioned in Internet postings that make >> >>> >liberal use of references of George Orwell's dystopian novel >> >>> >"1984" and "Big Brother," the omnipresent voice of Orwell's >> >>> >police state. Ralph Cavanagh, an energy expert with the Natural >> >>> >Resources Defense Council, said in an interview that at a time >> >>> >of peak electricity use, "most people given a choice of two >> >>> >degrees of temperature setback and 14th-century living would >> >>> >happily embrace this capacity."
>> >>> >Mr. Somsel, in an interview Thursday, said he had done further >> >>> >research and was concerned that the radio signal - or the >> >>> >Internet instructions that would be sent, in an emergency, from >> >>> >utilities' central control stations to the broadcasters sending >> >>> >the FM signal - could be hacked into.
>> >>> >That is not possible, said Nicole Tam, a spokeswoman for P.G.& >> >>> >E. who works with the pilot program in Stockton. Radio pages >> >>> >"are encrypted and encoded," Ms. Tam said.
>> >>> In California it may not be as bad as it sounds, not >> >>> many places there have freezing weather.
>> >>> And I repeat, the thermostats are more to keep >> >>> more than a fraction of the A/C or heat pump compressors >> >>> from starting at the same time (or resistance heat furnaces >> >>> from _being_ on).
>> >>> This has been a voluntary program here, meant >> >>> to avoid having to install a(nother) gas turbine generator.
>> >>> It should not even be needed on gas or oil furnaces.- Hide quoted >> >>> text -
>> >>> - Show quoted text -
>> >> California brought this on by environmentalist attacks on coal, >> >>oil, and nuclear power plants. >> >>With no new power plants being buitl, ultimately California will >> >>have to start rationing power
>> > I think it is more related to the speed of growth >> > of the population, I thought L.A. County was large >> > and congested when I left in 1965, I can't even >> > imagine the population being double.
>> > That area had to restrict emissions of any kind, >> > but power can be easily transmitted 100 miles or so. >> > Any fast growing area has a problem with all >> > utilities and infrastructure. >> > The fact that such a large part of the population >> > growth was low earning jobs, and even many who >> > were not committed to staying there, did not help >> > fund the new construction needed.
>> > A lot of people blame Enron or the greenies, >> > I blame the engineers that ignored the problem >> > of air conditioners either running constantly >> > because the units were undersized, or because >> > random time starting of motors that draw up to >> > seven times as much current while starting than >> > while running.
>> > The controllers the utility wants to install >> > can make a big difference, and they are not only >> > for A/C, the water heaters are also a problem, >> > only a different kind of problem.
>> > Some way to spread starting times for motors >> > should have been built into the units and/or the >> > grid a long time ago, and water heaters should >> > have had oversized storage and only run during >> > off peak hours or only one-tenth be on at any >> > one time.
>> > Surely anybody can see how random changes >> > in current draw all happening at the same instant >> > can exceed the capacity of the system no matter >> > how big it is.
>> > I would gladly allow the controller to be >> > installed if I had central air, but it is not even >> > offered without central air.
>> > If the grid would have been designed with >> > marker pulses from the beginning, the appliances >> > could have built in controllers.
>> > Even having higher rates for peak use is not >> > a help, people need the appliances when they >> > need them.
>> The Enron thing was the legislators fault from what I read. They >> insisted that spot prices of power be used instead of any long term >> contracts. Guess what happens to spot prices when there is a >> shortage.
> Yeah, Enron was such a good guy. They were capitalists, after all, > and capitalists always make the moral, right decision. And the bigger > the company, the more they have the good of the people guiding them, > right?
> Tell me, why did Enron's accouting firm shred the documents? Why did > some of Enron's executives go to prison?
They were crooked you dope. The legislators were merely stupid.
Ouroboros Rex wrote: > James wrote: >> I M @ good guy wrote: >>> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:30:17 -0800 (PST), "alanmc95...@yahoo.com" >>> <alanmc95...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On Nov 7, 2:32 pm, "I M @ good guy" <I...@good.guy> wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:21:29 -0500, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Anyone know if this idea progressed? >>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> By FELICITY BARRINGER >>>>>> Published: January 11, 2008 >>>>>> SAN FRANCISCO - The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" >>>>>> was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.
>>>>>> Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the >>>>>> emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending >>>>>> temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that >>>>>> will be required in new or substantially modified houses and >>>>>> buildings to manage electricity shortages.
>>>>>> The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the >>>>>> California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades >>>>>> has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, >>>>>> like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators. The >>>>>> changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset >>>>>> temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers >>>>>> could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in >>>>>> emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes. >>>>>> Final approval is expected next month.
>>>>>> "You realize there are times - very rarely, once every few years >>>>>> - when you would be subject to a rotating outage and everything >>>>>> would crash including your computer and traffic lights, and you >>>>>> don't want to do that," said Arthur H. Rosenfeld, a member of the >>>>>> energy commission.
>>>>>> Reducing individual customers' electrical use - if necessary, >>>>>> involuntarily - could avoid that, Dr. Rosenfeld said. "If you can >>>>>> control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share >>>>>> the pain," he said, "there's a lot less pain to go around."
>>>>>> While the proposals have received little attention in California, >>>>>> the Internet and talk radio are abuzz with indignation at the >>>>>> idea.
>>>>>> The radio-controlled thermostat is not a new technology, though >>>>>> it is constantly being tweaked; the latest iterations were on >>>>>> display this week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
>>>>>> Pacific Gas and Electric, the major utility in Northern >>>>>> California, already has a pilot program in Stockton that allows >>>>>> customers to choose to have their air-conditioning systems >>>>>> attached to a radio-controlled device to reduce use during >>>>>> periods when electricity rates are at their peak.
>>>>>> But the idea that a government would mandate use of these devices >>>>>> and reserve the power to override a building owner's wishes galls >>>>>> some people.
>>>>>> "This is an outrage," one Californian said in an e-mail message >>>>>> to Dr. Rosenfeld. "We need to build new facilities to handle the >>>>>> growth in this state, not become Big Brother to the citizens of >>>>>> California."
>>>>>> The broader stir on the Internet began when Joseph Somsel, a San >>>>>> Jose-based contributor to the publication American Thinker, wrote >>>>>> an article a week ago on the programmable communicating >>>>>> thermostat, or P.C.T.
>>>>>> Mr. Somsel went after the proposal with arguments that were by >>>>>> turns populist ("Come the next heat wave, the elites might be >>>>>> comfortably lolling in La Jolla's ocean breezes" while "the >>>>>> Central Valley's poor peons are baking in Bakersfield"), >>>>>> free-market ("P.C.T.'s will obscure the price signals to power >>>>>> plant developers") and civil libertarian ("the new P.C.T. >>>>>> requirement certainly seems to violate the 'a man's home is his >>>>>> castle' common-law dictum"). Word of the California proposal hit >>>>>> the outrage button in corners of the Internet, was written about >>>>>> in The North County Times in Southern California, and got a >>>>>> derisive mention on Wednesday on Rush Limbaugh's radio program.
>>>>>> The fact that similar radio-controlled technologies have been >>>>>> used on a voluntary basis in irrigation systems on farm fields >>>>>> and golf courses and in limited programs for buildings on Long >>>>>> Island is seldom mentioned in Internet postings that make >>>>>> liberal use of references of George Orwell's dystopian novel >>>>>> "1984" and "Big Brother," the omnipresent voice of Orwell's >>>>>> police state. Ralph Cavanagh, an energy expert with the Natural >>>>>> Resources Defense Council, said in an interview that at a time >>>>>> of peak electricity use, "most people given a choice of two >>>>>> degrees of temperature setback and 14th-century living would >>>>>> happily embrace this capacity."
>>>>>> Mr. Somsel, in an interview Thursday, said he had done further >>>>>> research and was concerned that the radio signal - or the >>>>>> Internet instructions that would be sent, in an emergency, from >>>>>> utilities' central control stations to the broadcasters sending >>>>>> the FM signal - could be hacked into.
>>>>>> That is not possible, said Nicole Tam, a spokeswoman for P.G.& E. >>>>>> who works with the pilot program in Stockton. Radio pages "are >>>>>> encrypted and encoded," Ms. Tam said.
>>>>> In California it may not be as bad as it sounds, not >>>>> many places there have freezing weather.
>>>>> And I repeat, the thermostats are more to keep >>>>> more than a fraction of the A/C or heat pump compressors >>>>> from starting at the same time (or resistance heat furnaces >>>>> from _being_ on).
>>>>> This has been a voluntary program here, meant >>>>> to avoid having to install a(nother) gas turbine generator.
>>>>> It should not even be needed on gas or oil furnaces.- Hide quoted >>>>> text -
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>> California brought this on by environmentalist attacks on >>>> coal, oil, and nuclear power plants. >>>> With no new power plants being buitl, ultimately California will >>>> have to start rationing power
>>> I think it is more related to the speed of growth >>> of the population, I thought L.A. County was large >>> and congested when I left in 1965, I can't even >>> imagine the population being double.
>>> That area had to restrict emissions of any kind, >>> but power can be easily transmitted 100 miles or so. >>> Any fast growing area has a problem with all >>> utilities and infrastructure. >>> The fact that such a large part of the population >>> growth was low earning jobs, and even many who >>> were not committed to staying there, did not help >>> fund the new construction needed.
>>> A lot of people blame Enron or the greenies, >>> I blame the engineers that ignored the problem >>> of air conditioners either running constantly >>> because the units were undersized, or because >>> random time starting of motors that draw up to >>> seven times as much current while starting than >>> while running.
>>> The controllers the utility wants to install >>> can make a big difference, and they are not only >>> for A/C, the water heaters are also a problem, >>> only a different kind of problem.
>>> Some way to spread starting times for motors >>> should have been built into the units and/or the >>> grid a long time ago, and water heaters should >>> have had oversized storage and only run during >>> off peak hours or only one-tenth be on at any >>> one time.
>>> Surely anybody can see how random changes >>> in current draw all happening at the same instant >>> can exceed the capacity of the system no matter >>> how big it is.
>>> I would gladly allow the controller to be >>> installed if I had central air, but it is not even >>> offered without central air.
>>> If the grid would have been designed with >>> marker pulses from the beginning, the appliances >>> could have built in controllers.
>>> Even having higher rates for peak use is not >>> a help, people need the appliances when they >>> need them.
>> The Enron thing was the legislators fault from what I read. They >> insisted that spot prices of power be used instead of any long term >> contracts. Guess what happens to spot prices when there is a >> shortage.
> You mean a faked shortage.
Faked? Ha ha. Why would you buy energy if you didn't need it? rotfl
columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: > On Nov 8, 8:16 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote:" The Enron > thing was the legislators fault from what I read."
> columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: > > On Nov 8, 8:16 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote:" The Enron > > thing was the legislators fault from what I read."
columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: > On Nov 9, 2:47 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote: >> columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: >> > On Nov 8, 8:16 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote:" The Enron >> > thing was the legislators fault from what I read."
> columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2:47 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote: > >> columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: > >> > On Nov 8, 8:16 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote:" The Enron > >> > thing was the legislators fault from what I read."
> >> Please give us your take on the cites you mentioned. Oh, you didn't > >> read those either did you? lol- Hide quoted text -
> >> - Show quoted text -
> > what dont you understand about you being wrong, thats very simple and > > nothing new.
> Why do you post links that you haven't read yourself?- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
laughing, why do you make stupid statements and not try to correct them, as the information i cited clearly shows problems you never mentioned. The funniest thing is that a tea partier like you blames government for people not controlling themselves. So what was i saying, oh yeah, you being wrong is nothing new....
columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: > On Nov 9, 6:36 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote: >> columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: >> > On Nov 9, 2:47 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote: >> >> columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: >> >> > On Nov 8, 8:16 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote:" The >> >> > Enron thing was the legislators fault from what I read."
>> >> > na, see below...
>> >> >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/28/us/enron-s-many-strands-early-scrut... >> >> > "ENRON'S MANY STRANDS: EARLY SCRUTINY; 10 Months Ago, Questions >> >> > on Enron Came and Went With Little Notice >> >> > By FELICITY BARRINGER >> >> > Published: Monday, January 28, 2002"
>> >> Please give us your take on the cites you mentioned. Oh, you >> >> didn't read those either did you? lol- Hide quoted text -
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>> > what dont you understand about you being wrong, thats very simple >> > and nothing new.
>> Why do you post links that you haven't read yourself?- Hide quoted >> text -
>> - Show quoted text -
> laughing, why do you make stupid statements and not try to correct > them, as the information i cited clearly shows problems you never > mentioned. The funniest thing is that a tea partier like you blames > government for people not controlling themselves. So what was i > saying, oh yeah, you being wrong is nothing new....
> columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: > > On Nov 9, 6:36 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote: > >> columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: > >> > On Nov 9, 2:47 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote: > >> >> columbiaaccidentinvestigation wrote: > >> >> > On Nov 8, 8:16 pm, "James" <kingko...@iglou.com> wrote:" The > >> >> > Enron thing was the legislators fault from what I read."
> >> >> > na, see below...
> >> >> >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/28/us/enron-s-many-strands-early-scrut... > >> >> > "ENRON'S MANY STRANDS: EARLY SCRUTINY; 10 Months Ago, Questions > >> >> > on Enron Came and Went With Little Notice > >> >> > By FELICITY BARRINGER > >> >> > Published: Monday, January 28, 2002"
> >> >> Please give us your take on the cites you mentioned. Oh, you > >> >> didn't read those either did you? lol- Hide quoted text -
> >> >> - Show quoted text -
> >> > what dont you understand about you being wrong, thats very simple > >> > and nothing new.
> >> Why do you post links that you haven't read yourself?- Hide quoted > >> text -
> >> - Show quoted text -
> > laughing, why do you make stupid statements and not try to correct > > them, as the information i cited clearly shows problems you never > > mentioned. The funniest thing is that a tea partier like you blames > > government for people not controlling themselves. So what was i > > saying, oh yeah, you being wrong is nothing new....
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