Message from discussion CotW - The Silmarillion - Ch 22 - Of the Ruin of Doriath

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From: "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamg...@blueyonder.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Subject: Re: CotW - The Silmarillion - Ch 22 - Of the Ruin of Doriath
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Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:59:28 GMT
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Raven wrote:
> "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamg...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:arO7h.2828$k74.2455@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
>> - What would have happened had Turgon told Thorondor to bring Húrin
>> to Gondolin again, as indeed he later wished he had?
>
>   The spies of Morgoth knew or guessed that Húrin sought Gondolin. Had 
> Thorondor picked up Húrin before he came near, and before he
> cried before the barren cliff-face, it is possible that they would
> have been unable to learn the region in which Turgon dwelt.  Had
> Thorondor done so after Húrin cried out, they would have learnt not
> only that which they did, but also guessed at Thorondor's connection
> with Turgon.  This might have added to Morgoth's profit from the
> affair.  Otherwise it does not seem to me that the fate of Gondolin
>   would have been much affected. As for Húrin's fate, his end would
> presumably have been less bitter.

I wonder. Hurin was freed 28 years after the end of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, 
and a year after the death of Turin. Tuor was born in the year of the Fifth 
Battle, and went to Gondolin in the year of the fall of Nargothrond, when he 
was 20 (I think - based on the text saying "16" and then "four years 
later"). Hurin therefore was seeking for Gondolin after Tuor arrived there, 
and probably some 8 years laer. Tuor married Idril 7 years after he arrived, 
and Gondolin fell 7 years after that. So Hurin would have spent some 6 years 
in Gondolin before it fell. Would those have been happy years for him? Would 
he have fallen in battle defending Turgon's tower? Or would something more 
tragic have befallen, with Hurin, not Maeglin, leading to the Fall of 
Gondolin?

> He would not have met Morwen.

Good point. In some ways that would have avoided pain, but there would have 
been no closure for him or her. The meeting with Morwen is definitely 
needed, for the reader as much as for them.

>   He would also not have brought the Nauglamir to Doriath, and
> probably the slaying of Thingol by the Dwarves would have been
> avoided.  Melian not departing, the Girdle would have remained
> intact, and the sons of Fëanor would not have been able to make a
> direct assault as they did in the second sack of Menegroth.  But
> possibly that dreadful oath would have found another way to bring war
> and ruin to Doriath.

Almost certainly. The authorial hand hovers here, like the shadow of doom 
and fate. The author knows that certain things need to be done, and in a 
suitably tragic way, so some things were always going to happen, 
story-externally.

>> - Inadvertently revealing to Morgoth's spies the region where
>> Gondolin was, is described as "the first evil that the freedom of
>> Húrin achieved". What were the later evils that Húrin's freedom
>> caused?
>
>   I would guess that this must be the bringing of the Nauglamir to
> Doriath. Though this could scarcely have been one of the evils
> planned or hoped for by Morgoth.

I've uncovered about the Nauglamir, and the development of this story, in my 
HoME research. I'll post that soon.

>> - The "babes in the wood" story is a staple of legends from many
>> cultures. But here it seems there is no happy ending. What happened
>> to Eluréd and Elurín?
>
>   Nothing more is recorded of their fates.  Had they survived, heirs
> to Díor and to Thingol before him, it would have been recorded. Presumably 
> they died of hunger and thirst.

I like to think that they survived, but that their fate was simply not 
recorded. Them coming back to reclaim their kingdom would be the normal 
ending, but the greater story (of the Silmarils) overwhelms this 
side-branch, and we hear nothing more.

Christopher