This post is part of the ongoing discussions of 'The Silmarillion' by J. R.
R. Tolkien. For further details, please see the schedule posted elsewhere in
these newsgroups.

Chapter of the Week (CotW) - The Silmarillion - Quenta Silmarillion (QS),
Chapter 22 - Of the Ruin of Doriath.

INTRODUCTION

In this chapter, the loose ends of the Túrin saga are tied up, and the
endgame of /Quenta Silmarillion/ begins in earnest, as we see the fall of
one of the two major Elven kingdoms left in Beleriand. The stage is also set
for the later chapters, as the Silmaril, through much turmoil and
vicissitudes, is brought by the author to the coast of Beleriand, where it,
and its bearer, Elwing, are left by the author, unknowingly awaiting the
survivors of another ruined kingdom.

The tales of Húrin, Morwen, Thingol, Melian, Beren and Lúthien, reach their
end in this chapter, the first two intertwined with the malice of Morgoth,
and the others caught up in the fate of the Silmaril. In the closing scenes
of the chapter, the Oath of Fëanor awakes again from sleep, bringing about
the second slaying of Elf by Elf.

The following sections include a brief chapter synopsis, a look at the
dialogues and monologues, several general discussion points, a selection of
some of the archaic words used, and a brief introduction to the textual
history (to be covered in more detail elsewhere). Please add any comments or
responses you may have, plus any further questions you can think of.

CHAPTER SYNOPSIS

1) Wanderings of Húrin

"[Morgoth's] purpose was that Húrin should still further his [Morgoth's]
hatred for Elves and Men, ere he died." (Of the Ruin of Doriath)

(a) Freeing of Húrin
(b) Húrin seeks Gondolin
(c) The death of Morwen
(d) Húrin at Nargothrond
(e) Húrin in Doriath
(f) The death of Húrin

2) The Fate of Doriath

"And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm." (Melian - Of
Beren and Lúthien)

(a) Thingol and the Silmaril
(b) Thingol and the Dwarves
(c) Death of Thingol
(d) Departure of Melian
(e) First Sack of Menegroth
(f) Battle of Sarn Athrad
(g) Renewal of Doriath
(h) Death of Beren and Lúthien
(i) Oath of Fëanor awakes
(j) Second Sack of Menegroth

DIALOGUES/MONOLOGUES

1) Turgon-Thorondor

"If the Eagles of Manwë were wont to err thus, then long ago, lord, your
hiding would have been in vain."

2) Húrin (Turgon)

"O Turgon, will you not hear in your hidden halls?"

3) Húrin-Morwen

Morwen: "You come at last. I have waited too long."

Húrin: "It was a dark road. I have come as I could."

4) Húrin-Mîm

Mîm: "I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves
delved the halls of Nulukkizdîn. I have but returned to take what is mine;
for I am the last of my people."

Húrin: "...not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was
betrayed."

5) Húrin-Melian (Thingol)

Húrin: "Receive thou thy fee, for thy fair keeping of my children and my
wife!"

Melian: "With the voice of Morgoth thou dost now upbraid thy friends."

6) Thingol (Dwarves)

"How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of
Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted ere
the fathers of the stunted people awoke?"

DRAMATIC SCENES

- The aged Húrin arriving in Hithlum
- Húrin crying aloud in the wilderness
- The night-sentinels' sighting of Húrin
- Morwen's death scene
- The darkness and decay of Nargothrond
- Húrin confronting Thingol
- Thingol confronting the dwarves
- Dior receiving the Silmaril-Nauglamír

DISCUSSION POINTS

- Húrin's appearance when he is released is striking: "His hair and beard
were white and long, but he walked unbowed, bearing a great black staff; and
he was girt with a sword." - does this sound anything like a biblical
prophet, or even a certain wizard?

- What would have happened had Turgon told Thorondor to bring Húrin to
Gondolin again, as indeed he later wished he had?

- The scene where Húrin cries aloud to Turgon in the wilderness, recalling
the scene at the Fen of Serech in the Fifth Battle, also has striking
parallels with scenes from the battle, including the scene where Húrin is
captured at the end of the battle.

"Húrin stood in despair before the silent cliffs of the Echoriath, and the
westering sun, piercing the clouds, stained his white hair with red. Then he
cried aloud in the wilderness [...] 'Turgon, Turgon, remember the Fen of
Serech!' [...] But there was no sound save the wind in the dry grasses.
'Even so they hissed in Serech at the sunset,' he said; and as he spoke the
sun went behind the Mountains of Shadow, and a darkness fell about him, and
the wind ceased, and there was silence in the waste." (Of the Ruin of
Doriath)

"There as the sun westered on the sixth day, and the shadow of Ered Wethrin
grew dark, Huor fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye, and all the
valiant Men of Hador were slain about him in a heap; and the Orcs hewed
their heads and piled them as a mound of gold in the sunset. [Húrin is
eventually captured.] Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down
beyond the sea. Night fell in Hithlum, and there came a great storm of wind
out of the West." (Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad)

The parallels I see here include the shadow of Ered Wethrin (The Mountains
of Shadow) being mentioned both times. Also, Húrin's now-white hair catches
the westering sun, with a gleam like that of blood, compared to the golden
hair of the dead Men of Hador gleaming like gold in the sunset. There is
also the obvious recalling of the Fen of Serech, followed by the scenes both
ending with sunset and the falling of night. At the battle, 28 years
earlier, a great storm of wind came out of the West, a suitable follow-up to
the defiance shown by Húrin with his cries of "Aurë entuluva! Day shall come
again!". Now, an old, white-haired man, embittered by Morgoth, and reminded
of the adventures of his youth with Huor, his long-dead brother, Húrin
despairs in the face of the silent cliffs, and there is no great storm of
wind to accompany the sunset, merely a "silence in the waste".

- Inadvertently revealing to Morgoth's spies the region where Gondolin was,
is described as "the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved". What
were the later evils that Húrin's freedom caused?

- Húrin is lead to Brethil by dreams of Morwen. Whence came these dreams?

- The night-sentinels at the Crossings of Teiglin see Húrin thus: "they
thought that they saw a ghost out of some ancient battle-mound that walked
with darkness about it". What is this darkness they see about him? Later,
after Húrin buries Morwen, we are told that Húrin does not lie in that
grave: "for his doom drove him on, and the Shadow still followed him." Were
the night-sentinels sensing this shadow, this curse that Morgoth had laid on
Húrin and his kin?

- Imagine the pain Húrin felt as Morwen asked him "if you know, tell me! How
did she [Nienor] find him [Túrin]?" He, of course, knew, but stayed silent
as she died: "...he closed her eyes, and sat unmoving beside her as the
night drew down. The waters of Cabed Naeramarth roared on, but he heard no
sound, and he saw nothing, and felt nothing, for his heart was stone within
him."

- The reference to Tol Morwen, the Stone of the Hapless, contains another of
those references that reveal that the land will be reshaped by the wrath of
the Valar, making clear that the end of the story (the Valar come and
overthrow Morgoth) is not the point here. Rather it is the stories within
the story that are the points.

- In Nargothrond, does Mîm have a point when he talks about having returned
to take what is his? Is the slaying of Mîm by Húrin another of the evils
caused by Húrin's freedom?

- In Doriath, when Húrin casts the Nauglamír at Thingol's feet, Thingol
shows impressive restraint and endures Húrin's scorn, letting Melian speak
instead. This Thingol contrasts sharply with the proud and haughty Thingol
who spoke to Beren, and also with the prideful Thingol (admittedly obsessed
with the Silmaril) who insulted the dwarves.

- What do you think Melian's reaction was when Húrin freely gave the
Nauglamír to Thingol as a gift? Did she feel the web of fate drawing ever
tighter around Thingol and herself and their kingdom?

- Is the ending of Húrin's tale a satisfactory one? A "happy ending"?
Despite being Morgoth's thrall "no longer", we are told that "all that saw
him fell back before his face" (what did they see there?). He is also
described as being "bereft of all purpose and desire" and we are told that
he "cast himself at last into the western sea".

- "...as the years passed Thingol's thought turned unceasingly to the jewel
of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even
behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it
with him always, waking and sleeping." This is not good! Is this a flaw in
Thingol's character? An unavoidable fate? An effect special to the Silmaril?
The dwarves seem to be affected in a similar way.

- Did the dwarves have a genuine claim to the Nauglamír? How would you
resolve this dispute over a combined work of the Dwarves and the Elves?

- Why is it significant that Thingol, with his last sight, gazed upon the
light of the Trees of Valinor, contained in the Silmaril? Is there something
more here than just the fact that he "alone of the Forsaken Elves" had seen
the original light? He is, literally and metaphorically "seeing the light"?
Or does he go to his death not understanding the folly of his pride?

- Why did Doriath not expect the attack from the Dwarves of Nogrod? Should
Melian have done more to warn them?

- This chapter contains references to Celeborn and Galadriel (who are also
encountered in 'The Lord of the Rings') and to 'Shepherds of the Trees'
(better known as Ents in LotR) - were these ...

read more »

news:arO7h.2828$k74.2455@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

   The spies of Morgoth knew or guessed that Húrin sought Gondolin.  Had
Thorondor picked up Húrin before he came near, and before he cried before
the barren cliff-face, it is possible that they would have been unable to
learn the region in which Turgon dwelt.  Had Thorondor done so after Húrin
cried out, they would have learnt not only that which they did, but also
guessed at Thorondor's connection with Turgon.  This might have added to
Morgoth's profit from the affair.  Otherwise it does not seem to me that the
fate of Gondolin would have been much affected.
   As for Húrin's fate, his end would presumably have been less bitter.  He
would not have met Morwen.
   He would also not have brought the Nauglamir to Doriath, and probably the
slaying of Thingol by the Dwarves would have been avoided.  Melian not
departing, the Girdle would have remained intact, and the sons of Fëanor
would not have been able to make a direct assault as they did in the second
sack of Menegroth.  But possibly that dreadful oath would have found another
way to bring war and ruin to Doriath.

   I would guess that this must be the bringing of the Nauglamir to Doriath.
Though this could scarcely have been one of the evils planned or hoped for
by Morgoth.

   Nothing more is recorded of their fates.  Had they survived, heirs to
Díor and to Thingol before him, it would have been recorded.  Presumably
they died of hunger and thirst.

Hraban.

I wonder. Hurin was freed 28 years after the end of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad,
and a year after the death of Turin. Tuor was born in the year of the Fifth
Battle, and went to Gondolin in the year of the fall of Nargothrond, when he
was 20 (I think - based on the text saying "16" and then "four years
later"). Hurin therefore was seeking for Gondolin after Tuor arrived there,
and probably some 8 years laer. Tuor married Idril 7 years after he arrived,
and Gondolin fell 7 years after that. So Hurin would have spent some 6 years
in Gondolin before it fell. Would those have been happy years for him? Would
he have fallen in battle defending Turgon's tower? Or would something more
tragic have befallen, with Hurin, not Maeglin, leading to the Fall of
Gondolin?

Good point. In some ways that would have avoided pain, but there would have
been no closure for him or her. The meeting with Morwen is definitely
needed, for the reader as much as for them.

Almost certainly. The authorial hand hovers here, like the shadow of doom
and fate. The author knows that certain things need to be done, and in a
suitably tragic way, so some things were always going to happen,
story-externally.

I've uncovered about the Nauglamir, and the development of this story, in my
HoME research. I'll post that soon.

I like to think that they survived, but that their fate was simply not
recorded. Them coming back to reclaim their kingdom would be the normal
ending, but the greater story (of the Silmarils) overwhelms this
side-branch, and we hear nothing more.

Christopher

In article <arO7h.2828$k74.2...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
 "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamg...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

No, it means 'anything', the opposite of "naught".

--
Odysseus

<snip>

As promised, more on the textual history of this chapter, 'Of the Ruin of
Doriath'.

I've now looked through all the /History of Middle-earth/ volumes and their
indices and chosen the Nauglamír as the convenient hook by which to find the
relevant material.

The following HoME volumes (HarperCollins) had relevant references:

The Book of Lost Tales 2 (BoLT 2)
The Shaping of Middle-earth (SoME)
The Lost Road and Other Writings (LRaoW)
The War of the Jewels (WotJ)

INDEX ENTRIES (Nauglamír and related terms)

- BoLT 2

'Nauglafring' (also 'Necklace of the Dwarves') - 41, 59, 72, 136-7, 144,
221, 227-8, 231-2, 234-5, 237-41, 243, 245-7, 252-6, 259, 264, see
especially 228

- SoME

'Nauglafring' - 33, 38-9, 62-4, 68-9, 71, 74, 134-5, 149-50, 152-3, 155,
190, 197, 306-7, 313, 325; OE Dweorgmene 33; Sigelmoerels 211; See Glingna
Nauglir, Nauglamír.

'Nauglamír' - 135, 155, 190, 313, 325

'Necklace of the Dwarves' - (32), 33, 61, 63, 134, 211, 306-7, 326

'Glingna Nauglir' - The Necklace of the Dwarves - 33

- LRaoW

'Nauglamír' - 141-2, 373, 375 (also Mir na Nauglin, Nauglavir)

'Necklace of the Dwarves' - 306; Dwarf-necklace 141.

- WotJ

'Nauglamír' - 244, 298, 345-7, 350-1, 353, 355

'Necklace of the Dwarves' - 244, 258, 297, 347; the Necklace, Thingol's
necklace 350-1, 353; Sigel Elu-naeth 'Necklace of the Woe of Thingol' 258,
297.

From this we can already see a plethora of variant names and terms for the
object we first encounter in /The Silmarillion/ (1977) as the 'Nauglamír'
(the Necklace of the Dwarves), but which J.R.R Tolkien first conceived of as
the Nauglafring:

Nauglamír
Nauglafring
Glingna Nauglir
The Necklace of the Dwarves
Dwarf-necklace
Thingol's necklace
Nauglavir
Mir na Nauglin
Sigel Elu-naeth
Necklace of the Woe of Thingol

There are also two Old English terms: Dweorgmene and Sigelmoerels.

Two essential bits of commentary by Christopher Tolkien are (1) BoLT 2 (pp
245-251) and (2) WotJ (pp 297-8):

(1) BoLT 2 (pp 245-251)

Christopher Tolkien (CJRT) is here commentating on /The Tale of the
Nauglafring/, a story written by J.R.R. Tolkien in the 1920s as part of the
/Book of Lost Tales/, and comparing it with /Of the Ruin of Doriath/ a
chapter of /The Silmarillion/ that was produced by Christopher Tolkien and
Guy Gavriel Kay after the death of J.R.R. Tolkien (in 1973), and published
in 1977. This commentary was published by Christopher Tolkien in 1984.

[A brief note by your present author on /The Tale of the Nauglafring/ - this
tale includes characters that are recognisable as appearing in later tales
under similar or different names: Urin for Hurin, Glorund for Glaurung,
Tinwelint for Thingol, Hisilome for Hithlum, Gwendelin for Melian, Beren
(then an Elf) and Tinuviel (Luthien), but is also wholly different from the
later tale in tone. Now on to CJRT's commentary.]

"In this commentary I shall not compare in detail the /Tale of the
Nauglafring/ with the story told in /The Silmarillion/ (Chapter 22, /Of the
Ruin of Doriath/). The stories are profoundly different in essential
features - above all, in the reduction of the treasure brought by Hurin from
Nargothrond to a single object, the Necklace of the Dwarves, which had long
been in existence (though not, of course, containing the Silmaril); while
the whole history of the relation between Thingol and the Dwarves is
changed. My father never again wrote any part of this story on a remotely
comparable scale, and the formation of the published text was here of the
utmost difficulty; I hope later to give an account of it...."

[skip several pages of comparisons to reach the following concerning the
Girdle of Melian, which is not present in the earlier story]

"Extraordinary difficulties of narrative structure were caused by this
element of the inviolability of Doriath, as I hope to describe at a future
date."

(The Nauglafring - The Book of Lost Tales 2)

(2) WotJ (pp 297-8)

Christopher Tolkien (CJRT) is here commentating on the unfinished state of
/The Wanderings of Hurin/, a story written by J.R.R. Tolkien after the
publication of /The Lord of the Rings/ (ie. after 1955), and contemplating
its relation to the earlier tales, and questioning the whole idea of making
a "unified Silmarillion", as he had published in 1977 (with this material
relating to the period covered in /Of the Ruin of Doriath/). This commentary
was published by Christopher Tolkien in 1995.

[A brief note by your present author on /The Wanderings of Hurin/ - this
tale, to quote the blurb on the back of the book, concerns "the disaster
that overtook the forest people of Brethil when Hurin the Steadfast came
among them after his release from long years of captivity in Angband, the
fortress of Morgoth." The tale includes characters such as Manthor and
Avranc. OK, now over to CJRT!]

"My father never returned to follow the further wanderings of Hurin. We come
here to the furthest point in the narrative of the Elder Days that he
reached in his work on /The Silmarillion/ (in the widest sense) after the
Second [World] War and the completion of /The Lord of the Rings/. There are
bits of information about the succeding parts - not much - but no further
new or revised narrative; and the promise held out in his words 'Link to the
Necklace of Dwarves, /Sigil Elu-naeth/, Necklace of the Woe of Thingol' was
never fulfilled. It is as if we come to the brink of a great cliff, and look
down from highlands raised in some later age onto an ancient plain far
below. For the story of the Nauglamir and the destruction of Doriath, the
fall of Gondolin, the attack on the Havens, we must return through more than
a quarter of a century to the /Quenta Noldorinwa/ (Q), or beyond."

[What a great analogy! The brink of a great cliff... Highlands raised in
some later age... An ancient plain far below... A bit later, we come to the
key point, relating to this chapter]

"In the published /Silmarillion/ I excluded it [/The Wanderings of Hurin/],
apart from from using Hurin's vain attempt to reach Gondolin and his finding
of Morwen dying beside the Standing Stone. Morwen's grave is made by Hurin
alone; and having made it, 'he passed southwards down the ancient road that
led to Nargothrond'.

[CJRT explains that he did not wish to undertake the kind of retelling
necessary to integrate such a dense narrative into the tale, and feared it
would diminish the "fearful image" of the old man, Thalion the Steadfast,
furthering the purposes of Morgoth. A similar wish probably motivated his
leaving the Tale of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin out of the published
/Silmarillion/. CJRT concludes with this passage on whether he was right to
exclude the tale of the Wanderings of Hurin]

"But it seems to me now, many years later, to have been an excessive
tampering with my father's actual thought and intention: thus raising the
question, whether the attempt to make a 'unified' /Silmarillion/ should have
been embarked on"

(The Wanderings of Hurin - The War of the Jewels)

So what are we (who are discussing this chapter) to make of all this? Was
Christopher Tolkien right to doubt the wisdom of attempting a 'unified'
/Silmarillion/?

Two things seem clear to me so far: (1) The story of Hurin, the Naugalmir,
Thingol, Melian, the dwarves, and the Ruin of Doriath, goes back to
Tolkien's earliest writings in the 1920s, but the some of the concepts
changed ...

read more »

Thanks! I blindly typed "define: aught" into Google, and it gave me a
definition of naught. But I should have spotted that. I could have been
worse I suppose. It could have given me a definition of ought! :-)

Christopher

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:28:38 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer  

[and similar comments throughout the subsequent discussion]

Guy Gavriel Kay is a fine author and has developed a well-deserved fan  
base.  But fans often like to believe a bit more of their hero than the  
facts justify, and such is the case here.  CRT did NOT, as one website has  
it, "hire well-known fantasy autor Guy Gavriel Kay to ghost-write The  
Silmarillion."  CRT did not in fact hire GGK to write anything at all, nor  
did GGK write anything, nor has GGK ever claimed to have done so.  GGK was  
not a fantasy writer at the time, but a law student; he only actually  
considered being an author as a result of his time with CRT in 1975-76.

GGK was brought on board through family connections (Baillie Tolkien is  
Canadian) to act as CRT's assistant- literally, as in filing and copying  
and fetching coffee.  Kay's role in the event went beyond that- a very  
great deal of it involved the sorting and organising of the incredible  
mass of disordered, dateless, and often illegible papers, most of this  
work carried out on numerous long tables set up in a large barn. CRT came  
to value his opinion, and GGK became a sounding board and a source of  
suggestions, in a sense not unlike the Inklings or CRT himself with regard  
to JRRT's work.  But Kay didn't write any of it, and the claims I've seen  
that "you can spot GGK's style at x, y, and z in The Sil" are delusory.

With regard to the present COTW, vide CRT's comment in HME XI, p. 356:  
"This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of  
long experimentation among alternating conceptions.  In this work Guy Kay  
took a major part, and the chapter *that I finally wrote* owes much to my  
discussions with him."

--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist  
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by  
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of  
his work"

[...]

I think you are. You found the right bit in the index line above: the
'note on Chapter 22' placed at the end of the chapter on the Tale of
Years.

-M-

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:36:43 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer  

Well, he didn't leave it out,he"compressed" it": all of the "Long Tuor" is  
summarized in the first two pages of Chapter 23.  That this is undeniably  
the source text is shown, inter alia, by Ulmo's appearance at Vinyamar  
rather than Nan-tathren, and many other details not found in or at  
variance with QN, AB, and the old Tale.

But from this point onward, the source text is essentially QN, somewhat  
rehandled in the interest of stylistic consistency.  Tiny bits of GA (not  
much). But with one detail brought forward from the Tale- anybody guess  
what it is?
--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist  
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by  
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of  
his work"

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 15:36:43 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer  

You've got it pretty much right.  The first part of Chapter 22, concerning  
Hurin, was lifted from "The Wanderings of Hurin;" after that QN was used  
where it was /possible,/ i.e. not inconsistent with the revised story.  
But the whole business of the Nauglamir and Thingol's death is new, not  
traceable to any source (which means QN- I don't believe there is anything  
unpublished here)- and so must be CJRT's addition.

--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist  
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by  
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of  
his work"

Oh dear. I hope I didn't belabour my misleading account of what Guy Gavriel
Kay's role was in all this. First, I'd like to thank you for pointing this
out this error on my part. Secondly, I want to apologise for promulgating
this myth.

I picked this idea up many years ago, during a discussion of various
passages from this chapter.[1] The discussion was about the bit where
Melian, in her union with Thingol is described as being bound by the "chain
and trammels of the flesh of Arda". Someone said something along the lines
of "Tolkien [JRRT] didn't write those bits", and that led to a discussion of
how various bits from this chapter (though it was never clearly said which
bits) had been written by "Christopher Tolkien and Guy Gavriel Kay". I have
a vague memory that I did discover that the concept behind this "chain and
trammels" sentence is actually somewhere in one of JRRT's texts, but anyway,
this laid the seed for wanting to find out what went on here, but also laid
the seed that GGK wrote bits, rather than (as you say) just advising.

I really should have checked all this out further before posting. Thanks
again for pointing out the error. I have a few more comments, which I'll add
below.

Ah. So you ascribe the start and spread of the myth to fans of GGK? That
could be the case. I've never read GGK's work, so I couldn't say either way.
What would be interesting is to do a brief survey here and find out how many
people, like me, had heard (and believed) this "GGK wrote bits of /The
Silmarillion/" myth?

Anyone?

Also, I wonder if it is possible to track down some of the earliest forms of
this myth. Presumably it didn't start until GGK published his fantasy tales,
and, I think, some people compared his work with Tolkien's. I hope I've got
/that/ "rumour" right! :-)

That is a massive leap from an incorrect "he wrote bits of it" to an also
incorrect but much more misleading "he wrote all of it" and an awful thing
to say! :-( I Googled and couldn't find the phrase, so hopefully the website
has been corrected.

Quite apart from anything else, it insults the massive amount of work that
Christopher Tolkien has put into publishing and analysing his father's
unpublished writings, and, with the forthcoming book, continues to do so.

Thanks for that. I assume the "barn" story and other bits above are from
interviews or talks by GGK? I've read the "barn" story in a booklet called
"The Best of Amon Hen" (which reprinted articles from Amon Hen, the bulletin
of the Tolkien Society). I mentioned it here (May 2005) and here (October
2005):

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.fan.tolkien/msg/ebb83209bf2f4ac0
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.fan.tolkien/msg/5917d4e6ea0e9d91

But in particular, I quoted it here (February 2006):

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/3b23e23a5...

But hey, maybe all this is really in HoME somewhere, if you look hard
enough!

I /knew/ I'd been looking in the wrong place! I found the endnote to the
"Wanderings of Hurin" bit a few page before that, and latched on to the
"cliffs" and "raised highlands" and "ancient plain" analogy, and didn't
bother to go any further. If I had, I would have found "A note on Chapter 22
Of the Ruin of Doriath in the published Silmarillion" - which explains
things rather neatly! Thanks for pointing that out.

I think it is worth emphasising again, the doubt Christopher Tolkien
expresses here and elsewhere in HoME about all this. Quoting from the same
source you use above, when CJRT is writing some twenty years after the work
in question on /The Silmarillion/:

"It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order
from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writings. [...] It seemed
at the time [...] that there was here an inescapable choice: either to
abandon that conception [of /The Silmarillion/ as projected], or else to
alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the
undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted
without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function."

What do people here think? Do you think Christopher Tolkien was right to
worry in this way. Do you, or will you, react differently to reading /The
Silmarillion/ as you realise that behind it all there are other stories, and
that "other versions" of /The Silmarillion/ are possible? Or do you prefer
to stick to the published version and enjoy that?

Christopher

[1] I  went and looked up the old discussions, one from February 1999 and
two other ones from 2004 and 2005, and I found the following posts and
threads.

(a) Start of February 1999 thread:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/39b8ad8e4...

(b) Post 28 in that February 1999 thread:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/15cb0093b...

From this post, read through posts 28-35 for the "old discussion" I referred
to up above in the main body of the post, plus some opinions about Guy
Gavriel Kay. This was, remember, my first real introduction to the idea that
/The Silmarillion/ was not a finished work, but a hodge-podge of different
texts by JRRT (I doubt I had really taken much note of CJRT's Foreword at
that age).

(c) Post 39 in that February 1999 thread:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/a2eecfbfb...

A repost of a summary of how CRJT edited /The Silmarillion/, written by none
other than a "Mr. Hicklin"! :-) Might I ask if Mr Hicklin would consider
reposting an expanded version of that post in a new discussion for the
current subscribers to the newsgroup?

(d) Post 254 in an October 2004 thread:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/ba61ee58b...

I'm told again to be careful about using these 'non-canonical' passage from
'Of the Ruin of Doriath' to support my arguments (see the previous post,
number 253).

(e) Post 55 in a February 2005 thread:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/138534a7a...

I try my arguments again, with the "JRRT/CJRT/GGK patchwork" disclaimer.

[end footnote]

Thanks! Rather silly of me, that. I copied out all those index page
references, meaning to look them all up, got distracted, only looked a few
up, and missed the most important one... Which reminds me, I must look up
the Old English references in SoME: Dweorgmene 33; Sigelmoerels 211.

Hmm. It looks like Tolkien dabbled with OE equivalents of Elvish words.
Dweorgmene is OE for Dwarf-necklace. Tolkien wrote it above 'Nauglafring',
crossed it out and then wrote 'Glingna Nauglir' (which reminds me of
Glingal - 'Hanging Flame' - the golden one of the two trees of Gondolin,
made by Turgon in image of Laurelin). 'Sigelmoerels' is more interesting, as
'Sigel' and 'Sigelmaerels' is given as the OE equivalent(s) of 'Silmaril'
(where 'sigel' = 'sun, jewel', as in 'Sigelwara land' - an essay by Tolkien
that (I think) linked the phrase to Ethiopia; and 'moerels' is rope (ie.
jewel-rope = necklace). Does this linguistic play symbolise the story of the
Silmaril being placed in the Nauglamir? It all looks very interesting. Can
any linguists add any more to this?

Christopher

Well, in QN, there is only mention of the Dragon-gold of Nargothrond, cursed
by Mim, and the effect it had on Thingol and the Dwarves. The Nauglamir is
not mentioned until the Battle of Sarn Arthrad, as far as I can tell. But
the idea of the Nauglamir being the cause of, or related to, the woe of
Thingol is not new. That can be seen in the old tale of the Nauglafring in
the Book of Lost Tales (where Thingol is Tinwelint), and more relevantly in
the note Tolkien made to link the tale of Hurin to the 'Sigel Elu-naeth',
the 'Necklace of the Woe of Thingol'. It seems that CJRT interpreted JRRT's
note to mean that JRRT was going to bring the Nauglamir to the forefront of
the story, but maybe that is not clear from the texts. So I think you mean
the idea of replacing the dragon-gold with the Nauglamir was CJRT's way of
removing the outlaws and the dragon-gold and Mim's curse from the equation.
ie. elevating the role of the Nauglamir, and removing the dragon-gold.

Thingol's death in other versions seems uniformly to be in battle with
dwarves (and/or orcs) attacking Doriath. Would it be right to say that the
idea of Thingol being murdered in secret by the dwarves is the new idea?

Christopher

This should probably be left until the next discussion, of that chapter, but
just to be clear in my mind, you are here referring to the Tuor story in
/Unfinished Tales/ as "Long Tuor", which CJRT retitled "Of Tuor and his
Coming to Gondolin" (as the story breaks off at the point when they arrive
there), and the old Tale is the one published in the Book of Lost Tales
(part 2)?

[GA = Grey Annals; QN = Quenta Noldorinwa; AB = something I've forgotten]

So, there is a bit in the published /Silmarillion/ chapter on Tuor and the
Fall of Gondolin, that is not in QN, but is found in the old Tale. Hmm. At
first I thought it was a passing reference to the Two Trees of Gondolin, but
then a verbatim passage jumped out at me from the old Tale, a passage which
is in the published /Silmarillion/ chapter, but not in QN. A detail in the
death of Maeglin: "his body as it fell smote the rocky slopes of Amon
Gwareth thrice ere it pitched into the flames below".

I suspect this is not what you meant, as QN doesn't really omit this, but
just glosses over it without going into detail. The essential elements of
the fight are still there. Do you mean something that is omitted entirely
from QN, but reappears in the published chapter and is /only/ found in the
old Tale?

Christopher

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:34:03 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer  

You spotted it exactly!  As with so much of the old Lost Tale, there's no  
telling how much was never rejected, just left out due to compression.  
Certainly JRRT had it in front of him when writing the UT "Long Tuor." But  
the one specific detail CJRT resurrected was just that, Maeglin's  
triple-header down the hillside.

--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist  
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by  
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of  
his work"

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:56:42 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer  

I would say so- together with the idea that the Nauglamir had been made  
years before for Felagund, and that it was the only thing that Hurin  
brought out of Nargothrond.  In all previous versions, the Necklace was  
only made at this time, from Hurin's dragon-gold.

However, as I read CT's commentary the problem he had was the simple  
logistics of hauling all that treaure through hostile wilderness.  The  
Tale solution, by which Hurin gets Tinwelint's Elves to do the cartage,  
really rather spoils the gesture!

--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist  
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by  
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of  
his work"

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:16:37 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer  

What Mr Hicklin really should do, if he can find the time, is to write up  
his "Compleat Textual Concordance" of The Silmarillion (which amounts to a  
paperback copy of the Sil, carefully underlined with a multitude of  
colored pencils so as to relate each passage to its source-text).  What's  
really remarkable, looking through that volume, is the extent to which, at  
least to the end of Beren and Luthien, there is almost no CJRT at all  
(except of course in the "selection and arrangement."  Leaving aside the  
updating of names, the changes are generally of the "and" > "then" sort:  
what one would expect of a copyeditor. It really is all in JRRT's own  
words: about 97%.

--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist  
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by  
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of  
his work"

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:16:37 -0500, Christopher Kreuzer  

All but the barn story, which was IIRC related by Charles Noad.
--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist  
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by  
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of  
his work"

Remember that the idea that the Silmaril was placed in an existing
Nauglamír is part of Christopher's invention. In the old story it was
intended as a housing for the Silmaril from the beginning.

This does lead to a question of how appropriate that name is in the
published Silmarillion version, both in its composition and in form.

In the published story, the Nauglamír did not have a single prominent
jewel when it was first made. But I can't think of any other place where
'mír' can't be read as referring to a single jewel rather than a piece
of jewellery.

The other oddity is the long vowel in the last syllable. Words of this
form are extremely rare in published Sindarin, except in names
originating in Doriath, where they're rather common: Eluréd, Elurín,
Eluchíl, Aranrúth, and Nauglamír. Perhaps (and I admit this is complete
speculation on my part) Tolkien thought of this as a distinctive feature
of the speech of Doriath, in which case again the name of the Nauglamír
becomes strange when the story is that it was made in Nargothrond.

-M-

William Cloud Hicklin <icelofang...@mindspring.com> wrote:

In the bits of the present chapter which do derive directly from
Tolkien's writing, the editorial changes to the style and wording seem
somewhat more pervasive.

I've typed up a comparison of the two forms of one of the passages which
Chris picked out: Hurin's call to Turgon.

Some of the changes I can see as being for consistency. In particular,
'you' for 'ye' and 'has' for 'hath', which parallel changes which
Tolkien had made himself elsewhere. But most of the changes seem to be
for stylistic improvement. To my eyes, they're removing both modernisms
and archaisms from the original.

I wonder if some of these changes were in fact made as corrections to
the typescript but not mentioned in XI. I can see nothing explicitly
saying what the handling was, but elsewhere Christopher says his
practice was to include corrections which seemed to be contemporary but
omit ones which seemed to be significantly later.

-M-

------------------------

(Typescript of the Wanderings of Hurin as published in XI, followed by
the published Silmarillion):

But Turgon said 'Nay! This is past belief! Unless Morgoth sleeps. Ye
were mistaken.'

But Turgon said: 'Does Morgoth sleep? You were mistaken.'

'Nay, not so,' answered Sorontar. 'If the Eagles of Manwe were wont to
err thus, Lord, your hiding would have been in vain.'

'Not so,' said Thorondor. 'If the Eagles of Manwe were wont to err thus,
then long ago, lord, your hiding would have been in vain.'

'Then your words bode ill,' said Turgon; 'for they can mean only that
even Hurin Thalion hath surrendered to the will of Morgoth. My heart is
shut.'

'Then your words bode ill,' said Turgon; 'for they can bear but one
meaning. Even Hurin Thalion has surrendered to the will of Morgoth. My
heart is shut.'

But when he had dismissed Sorontar, Turgon sat long in thought, and he
was troubled, remembering the deeds of Hurin. And he opened his heart,
and sent to the Eagles to seek for Hurin, and to bring him, if they
could, to Gondolin.

But when Thorondor was gone, Turgon sat long in thought, and he was
troubled, remembering the deeds of Hurin of Dor-lomin; and he opened his
heart, and sent to the eagles to seek for Hurin, and to bring him if
they might to Gondolin.

But it was too late, and they saw him never again in light or in shadow.

But it was too late, and they never saw him again in light or in shadow.

For Hurin stood at last in despair before the stern silence of the
Echoriad, and the westering sun, piercing the clouds, stained his white
hair with red.

For Hurin stood in despair before the silent cliffs of the Echoriath,
and the westering sun, piercing the clouds, stained his white hair with
red.

Then he cried aloud in the wilderness, heedless of any ears, and he
cursed the pitiless land: 'hard as the hearts of Elves and Men'. And he
stood at last on a great stone, and spreading wide his arms, looking
towards Gondolin, he called in a great voice: 'Turgon, Turgon! Remember
the fen of Serech!' And again: 'Turgon! Hurin calls you. O Turgon, will
you not hear in your hidden halls?'

Then he cried aloud in the wilderness, heedless of any ears, and he
cursed the pitiless land; and standing at last upon a high rock he
looked towards Gondolin and called in a great voice: 'Turgon, Turgon,
remember the Fen of Serech! O Turgon, will you not hear in your hidden
halls?'

But there was no answer, and all that he heard was wind in the dry
grasses. 'Even so they hissed in Serech at the sunset,' he said.

But there was no sound save the wind in the dry grasses. 'Even so they
hissed in Serech at the sunset,' he said;

:-) Thanks! I'm as surprised as anyone! LOL!

Did he just like it, I wonder, or would there be a reason behind this
resurrection? One thing I note he didn't resurrect was the image of this
heroic Earendil figure biting people's hands when he was a child!! :-/
Trying to be like Gollum, or something...

Christopher

I assume this earlier bit in /The Silmarillion/ was inserted by CJRT to
support all this?

"And in that time was made for him [Finrod] the Nauglamír, the Necklace of
the Dwarves, most renowned of their works in the Elder Days. It was a
carcanet of gold, and set therein were gems uncounted from Valinor..." (Of
the Return of the Noldor)

I so like the (paraphrasing) 'he bore one thing only out of the vast halls
of Nargothrond whereat the treasures of Valinor were spread in darkness and
decay'. See, the paraphrasing just doesn't do it justice. <rummages in book>
Ah, here we are:

"Then he entered in, and stayed a while in that dreadful place, where the
treasures of Valinor lay strewn upon the floors in darkness and decay; but
it is told that when Húrin came forth from the wreck of Nargothrond and
stood again beneath the sky he bore with him out of all that great hoard but
one thing only." (Of the Ruin of Doriath)

This has got me thinking of other ways to deal with the problem that CJRT
encountered. I wonder if it is too presumptuous to try a few ideas (the
commentary says that CJRT and GGK did try out other ideas - would be
fascinating to know what those other ideas were).

How about: Mim makes the Nauglamir from the dragon-gold when he returns to
Nargothrond, and then offers it to Hurin if he will spare his life. Hurin
then slays Mim and Mim lays his curse on the Nauglamir. Rest of story as
before. (This sounds familiar - hope it is not the same as one of Tolkien's
versions!)

Also, the bit where the dwarves slay Thingol in Doriath seems unnecessary.
Why not have Thingol slain outside Doriath (say, on a hunting trip),
surprised by a Dwarf army returning after Thingol booted them out for trying
to claim the Nauglamir? That gets rid of the Girdle problems, though
actually, in those troubled times with the power of Morgoth very much in the
ascendency, Thingol wouldn't have ventured outside Doriath, so the problem
remains. And you still have the dwarf army unable to get into Doriath. The
departure of Melian after Thingol's death is from JRRT, but it looks like
CJRT made it crucial by explicitly linking this to the failure of the
Girdle.

However, I do like the 'haughty Thingol slain by the dwarves' scene,
especially the "last sight" looking on the Silmaril bit. So is there any
real need to worry that this is "not Tolkien"? Are we certain it is not
Tolkien's? ie. are there _any_ traces or hints of this in any of Tolkien's
writings?

Christopher

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:36:16 -0500, Matthew Woodcraft  

"Late corrections" are always a potential problem in this sort of  
analysis; but here, I think, the alterations are largely editorial. For  
the most part they seem merely to be slight "compressions," cutting the  
length of the original somewhat.  This is understandable under the  
circumstances, where we have, on one side, the end of Turin, taken from  
the Grey Annals, and on the other side Tuor, most of which was taken  
perforce from the old Quenta Noldorinwa.  I believe CRT was trying to  
exert some control over the "expansiveness" of the text, so that the scale  
or "focal length"  remained roughly consistent. The best model he had  
available was JRRT's own handling of the last part of Turin- the detailed  
Narn, and the GA version which was a compressed version of that text.  WH  
is a narrative on Narn-scale, and so it's reasonable to postulate that The  
Silmarillion required a text on GA-scale.

My figures posted previously don't apply to the later chapters of the  
book, after the end of the QS/LQ texts. The editorial hand necessarily had  
a lot more to do there.

--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist  
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by  
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of  
his work"

In message <news:arO7h.2828$k74.2455@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamg...@blueyonder.co.uk> spoke these
staves:

A bit belated, I'm afraid, but still.

Húrin was set free, when Morgoth 'judged the time to be ripe'. Why
did Morgoth decide the time was ripe?

Is it to do with his particular efforts regarding the rulers of
Doriath?

    In all ways Morgoth sought most to cast an evil light on
    those things that Thingol and Melian had done, for he
    hated them, and feared them.

It does say, that 'When therefore he judged . . .' as if the
statement about Thingol was his reason for judging the time ripe. In
that case, I'd assume that he had been waiting until he was sure that
Húrin was sufficiently mad at Thingol and Melion to do something
stupid (like for instance handing them a piece of cursed jewelry).

Yes, even Húrin himself expected as much, but I wonder if Morgoth had
any specific expectations from the freeing of Húrin? Did he, for
instance, expect to learn in which part of Beleriand Turgon lived? In
that connection I am also curious to know if Húrin's 'escort' was
meant to isolate Húrin, driving him on from Hihtlum, as it appears to
me it was.

<snip>

I don't think that too much should be read into that. The white hair
and beard is a symbol of age and great suffering (in Húrin's case of
suffering), and walking unbowed simply symbolizes that his suffering
hasn't cowed him.

The staff and sword are more interesting. The sword symbolizes the
warrior, the one who is fighting against the enemy (as it did for
Gandalf).

The staff is more ambiguous, and has been used in many connections.
Given the title of the underlying text (I'm thinking of 'The
Wanderings of Húrin'), it seems to me likely that this is a
wanderer's staff, rather than, for instance, a wizard's staff or a
shepherd's staff. In that case the image is that of a solitary
wanderer, an old warrior who has seen too much, but who hasn't lost
his courage.

The combination is naturally striking familiar echoes, as you note,
of e.g. Gandalf, but in this case I think it is the result of similar
problems leading to similar answers rather than either being intended
to recall the other.

<snip>

Within the context of the story, I could imagine it coming from
several sources for various reasons.

Morgoth would be trying to get Húrin to move on towards the southern
lands and the purpose Morgoth wanted him to serve there (against both
the Men in Brethil and the Elves in Doriath).

Ulmo -- he would want Húrin to catch up with Morwen. Possibly because
there would be something redeeming about being with Morwen as she
died, or because he wanted Húrin to go to Doriath as a messenger
unlooked for (the latter could e.g. be as a warning to Melian: Ulmo
had already prophecied that the hope would come from Tuor and Idril,
but perhaps he was setting up the other circumstances necessary to
provide that hope: the chain of events that would eventually bring
the Silmaril to the mouth of Sirion).

Eru: In some ways Eru is the easy way out, as one can always say it
served His purpose, but I admit I would feel that that was a bit on
the cheap side.

Of the three, I think Eru is probably the least likely -- Húrin's
wanderings are known to have a direct impact on matters which both
Morgoth and Ulmo were interested in, and it is always better to use
someone (or something) that is known to be close to the business.

[...]

Yes.

OK, I was tempted to leave it at that, because it seemed to me so
clear that this darkness and shadow are related, and somehow
represents the mark Morgoth has left on Húrin, and I don't see what
else it could be.

[...]

Well, my heart weren't and my eyes didn't stay dry. It's a wonderful
passage that.

I'm not actually sure that there is any eucatastrophic moments in the
story of Húrin after his release from Angband, but if the ones that
come closest are, IMO, this moment, when he and Morwen share what is
left of the night (followed by the promise of the sanctity of Tol
Morwen), and the moment when Melian finally sets him free of Morgoth
and he is 'his thrall no longer.'

[...]

Yes. The Beleriandric wars is a setting for stories, not the story
itself. The Quenta Silmarillion uses these wars to tie all the
stories together, but the actual manouvres and battles between Good
and Evil fill relatively little in the tale.

Tolkien is, in other words, using the wars as a background, on which
he paints stories of individual valour, tragedy etc. but surprisingly
little about much of the other stuff that has filled much of the war
literature in the wake of the two great wars of the twentieth
century: not the gory details of the 'disenchanted' literature (such
as e.g. /All Quiet on the Western Front/), nor the details of troop
movements, skirmishes etc.  Tolkien, IMO, manages to strike an
amazing balance where the war in itself is portrayed as evil and
wasteful, it also draws out both the worst and the best from those
who are caught up in it, and that is what Tolkien shows in his
individual tales from the Beleriandric wars.

I don't think so. Húrin, I believe, rejects Mîm's claim by referring
to himself (implicitly) as the heir to Túrin's claim, which Túrin
apparently would have as slayer of Glaurung (rightful 'spoils of
war', I suppose).  My impression here is that we are supposed to
recognize Húrin's claim as the rightful one (i.e. the one Tolkien
favours).

In other words, should Húrin have shown, as Frodo, mercy, pity and
forgiveness of injury?

Perhaps he should -- though I wonder how it would have helped?

Had he found that healing it required to spare Mîm, would he have
gone back empty-handed to Thingol and Melian, or would he have taken
something -- the Nauglamir -- from the treasure to present to them in
the spirit in which he finally gave it to Thingol?

The big problem would be to incorporate both an early healing for
Húrin while retaining his setting into motion the events leading to
the sack of Doriath.

[...]
Thingol & Beren (at firest), Thingol & Húrin and Thingol & the
Dwarves.

[...]

Thingol's scorn for the dwarves is, of course, an invention by CJRT,
which, though in line with his earlier hauteur towards Beren, shows
little of the mellowing of Thingol's mind that came about after Beren
and Lúthien's deeds.

The other meetings, with Beren and Húrin, come from the Quenta
Noldorinwa (c. 1930: Húrin) and the Quenta Silmarillion (c. 1937:
Beren) respectively -- both works of the thirties separated by only a
few years, the later essentially expanding upon the earlier. What
truly separate these two portrayals of Elu Thingol is, IMO, rather
the quest of Beren and Lúthien, and Thingol's own regret[*] at
Túrin's flight from Doriath and refusal to return.

[*] I'm not sure that 'regret' is the right word -- I want to imply a
    sadness and a deep wish that it could have been otherwise, but no
    feelings of guilt or shame.

<snip>

I don't think the suicide of 'the mightiest of the warriors of mortal
Men' can count as a happy ending by any stretch of imagination.

But that doesn't, I think, preclude the story from having
eucatastrophic moments earlier on, though I am not sure that this in
fact does contain any. As stated above my preferrred candidates would
be that last night with Morwen (followed by the promise of the
permanent sanctity of the Stone of the Hapless), and the release from
Morgoth's thralldom under the protection of the Girdle of Melian.

The words 'I am his thrall no longer' imply also the realization that
Húrin had been Morgoth's thrall right up until the moment when Melian
opened his eyes. Despite his gesture afterwards, Húrin goes forth
with the realization that even after his release, he has been serving
Morgoth's purposes rather than his own, perhaps recalling other
situations where his deeds can have benefitted Morgoth.

Small wonder if he looks a bit odd ;)

The big question is what feeling was reflected in that face.

So I would find it unlikely that his emotional state was one of anger
and defiance -- if that was the case, he would gone out to die
killing orcs; possibly even offered to ...

read more »

...

Yes.  It is uncommon in Modern English but the Lord's Prayer (King
James Version) has "Hallowed be thy name".  Also Halloween is short
for All Hallows Eve or the eve of All Saints day.  So hallow as a noun
means saint (dying out around 1500 as a usage except in Halloween and
related words) and as a verb means to make holy.  Hallows (plural) can
also mean holy place.

--
\----
|\* |  Emma Pease                          Net Spinster
|_\/                                       Die Luft der Freiheit weht