Hi, I've just been watching Sound Of Music on DVD, and it got me thinking... What would that film have been like if rather than Julie Andrews becomming the Von Trapp family governess they had hired Susan, the anti-maria, or a sort of reverse Mary Poppins.
If the family had started off @ the beginning of the film the way the ended up in the real version, all singing and all dancing, dressed in their best curtains, after a few months would they have ended up as the model children that we see at the start of the film, polite, quite, and NOT SINGING.
Was thinking that it might make a good DW book, and they have to escape from some power crazed Uberwald warewolves at the end...
> > Was thinking that it might make a good DW book, and they have to escape > > from some power crazed Uberwald warewolves at the end...
> In case its not blindingly obvious, or you haven't seen the film, the > werewolves representing the Nazis
> Sophie
Doesn't sound like a bad idea...... Susan Sto Helit is who i would choose to. :) But there might be an opening the witches.... Could you work in the witches as the other 'sisters'? Magrat Garlik could be Maria too, BUT that wouldn't be nearly as fun as Susan. Maybe get Gaspode in as the family "pet"
sophster wrote: > Hi, > I've just been watching Sound Of Music on DVD, and it got me thinking...
*speculation snipped*
I probably won't be the first to tell you this, but at least I'll spare you the beating. This sort of thing is rather discouraged on this newsgroup, for several reasons, including that the author hangs around here, and that he can't use ideas posted by well-meaning fans. There are legal ramifications, I understand, as well as a certain pride that creative people take in writing their books all by themselves, without help.
Please don't post speculation here. I know it's fun to talk about what you'd like to see in the books and to think about how you'd like things to develop, but speculation is specifically mentioned as a no-no in the FAQs for a very good reason. Terry has does not want to be accused of getting his ideas from his fans (just think of the fun some of the press could have with an accusation like that), and at least once a speculation on one of the Pratchett newsgroups has come close enough to one of his ideas for future books that he had to change his plans. On that occasion Terry stopped participating in the groups for several months, and only came back because of a strict prohibition against *any* speculation offering details of possible future developments.
If you really want to see the story, maybe you could write it. There is a mailing list for fan fiction that Terry takes care to avoid (the details are on http://www.lspace.org/faqs/afp-faq.g.html). But if you want Terry to continue to read and post here, please keep speculation away from afp and abp.
> Please don't post speculation here. I know it's fun to talk about > what you'd like to see in the books and to think about how you'd > like things to develop, but speculation is specifically mentioned > as a no-no in the FAQs for a very good reason. Terry has does not > want to be accused of getting his ideas from his fans (just think of > the fun some of the press could have with an accusation like that), > and at least once a speculation on one of the Pratchett newsgroups > has come close enough to one of his ideas for future books that > he had to change his plans. On that occasion Terry stopped > participating in the groups for several months, and only came back because > of a strict prohibition against *any* speculation offering > details of possible future developments.
> If you really want to see the story, maybe you could write it. There > is a mailing list for fan fiction that Terry takes care to avoid (the > details are on http://www.lspace.org/faqs/afp-faq.g.html). But if > you want Terry to continue to read and post here, please keep > speculation away from afp and abp.
>Indeed not. There are not a huge number of stories with a governess in >the centre of them and I was rather looking forward to writing that one.
>Thank you, people, for ensuring that I don't.
I honestly don't think "DW does Sound of Music" is much of a leap, especially given the set-up you've already provided with the werewolves/SS and Susan (a governess) as a major character. It's hardly as if any book could be hugely similar to the film, unless it's the Korean version where they cut the songs because the running time was too long. It's certainly not enough of an unusual idea that thousands of people couldn't have idly wondered it at some stage.
Has the situation changed? Going by previous postings of yours, I was under the impression that (while discouraged) ideas this vague wouldn't stop you writing what you liked, since they're pretty much ten a penny, and anyone with an ounce of sense can come up with half a dozen in an hour.
>The Librarian is a man turned >into an ape, wouldn't it be fun if he turned into a man again... I've >come close to that with Greebo. It's not a whole lot further down the >line than 'do a book about football'. This, with respect to all here, >is not a story idea as such, it's a conceit. But it'd start to be a >potential problem for me if people came up with all the subsidiary ideas >that put it in context: why it happened, where, what happened next...
>So I'm taking this view now: there's hundred of people out there with a >good working knowledge of DW, and on the newsgroup they're postulating >all kinds of stuff. Fine. But I know a lot about DW too, and I've got >fat files of characters, ideas, situations and lines which have occurred >to me over the years. I'm not going to knowingly pinch anyone's idea, >but neither am I going to cross stuff out because someone else has >independently suggested it.
>I ought to be clear what I mean by 'ideas'. People posting 'It'd be >kewl to have a DW novel about newspapers/football/the Millennium >Bug/whatever', well, that's not a problem. Nor is it an idea. It's >just a concept. I can dream up a dozen a minute.
***************************
If things are different now, it would be nice to have some kind of clearer guideline as to what is and isn't acceptable - to be honest, I don't think there's any way short of making both newsgroups moderated to avoid this happening again, and I'd hate to think we were circumscribing your freedom to write what the heck you want.
However, just to make sure:
"Why don't we have a Discworld version of "Debbie Does Dallas"? We could have Cheery lining up to reward the all-Copperhead Dwarf Croissant Hurling team."
In article <Pine.SOL.4.44.0308131034230.6424-100...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>, Peter Ellis <pj...@cam.ac.uk> writes
>I honestly don't think "DW does Sound of Music" is much of a leap, >especially given the set-up you've already provided with the werewolves/SS >and Susan (a governess) as a major character.
This is true, but so what? The fact that a couple of known DW themes so easily combine in this doesn't change much. Saying 'anyone could have had the idea' probably sounds shrill and whiny in face of the fact that someone else was the first to 'publish' it.
>Has the situation changed? Going by previous postings of yours, I >was under the impression that (while discouraged) ideas this vague >wouldn't stop you writing what you liked, since they're pretty much ten a >penny,
The situation changes all the time. Two long threads recently on rec.arts.sf. written, about copyright and fanfic, lead me to believe that the laid-back approach I've tried to evolve and maintain isn't very safe.
I don't think for one moment that anyone on this thread is going to sue or cause trouble. But 'The Sound of Music' is pretty specific, especially when others start to speculate further. With respect, it's not in the same category as 'one about football'. -- Terry Pratchett
"Diane L." <di...@lindquist.clara.co.uk> wrote in message <news:1060674218.84084.0@eunomia.uk.clara.net>... > Square Bear wrote: > > "sophster" <sophienor...@operamail.com> wrote in message > > news:oprtrw78j98lr217@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk... > Terry has does not > want to be accused of getting his ideas from his fans (just think of > the fun some of the press could have with an accusation like that), > and at least once a speculation on one of the Pratchett newsgroups > has come close enough to one of his ideas for future books that > he had to change his plans.
Something similar happened a while ago on the sluggy forums (www.sluggy.com). Somebody speculated about what they thought would happen next, and by fluke got it right. Of course, rising to the occasion, the poster went nasty and accused Pete of stealing her ideas. She kept on insisting that she put in there first, so he must have stolen the idea from her. :S
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:34:51 +0100, Terry Pratchett
<tpratch...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote: >Indeed not. There are not a huge number of stories with a governess in >the centre of them and I was rather looking forward to writing that one.
>Thank you, people, for ensuring that I don't.
>-- >Terry Pratchett
Excuse me, Sir. I couldn't help overhearing.
I understand your concern, but at this stage it may not be too late to undo the damage.
If I strolled up you at a party and said something like "how about a story where the witches go to the opera, maybe with overtones of the Phantom" would that have made it impossible for you to have written Maskerade?
Surely there is a world of difference between suggesting an idea for a book and the actual production of one of your masterpieces. I've read a fair number of books containing dedications like 'to my wife Gladys, who suggested the idea'; at no time was it suggested that the copyright lay with Gladys.
In the case of The Sound of Music, it's not as if the idea is original; the intellectual property is surely in what you make of it. I suspect you would have made something marvellous.....
As a long time and fervent Pratchettian, I'd hate to think that we may have lost a masterpiece because of an inadvertent blurt from a newbie. I hope you allow the offending post to drop into the background noise of the web, and not allow it to interfere with your plans for future books.
> I understand your concern, but at this stage it may not be too late to > undo the damage.
> If I strolled up you at a party and said something like "how about a > story where the witches go to the opera, maybe with overtones of the > Phantom" would that have made it impossible for you to have written > Maskerade?
> Surely there is a world of difference between suggesting an idea for a > book and the actual production of one of your masterpieces. I've read > a fair number of books containing dedications like 'to my wife Gladys, > who suggested the idea'; at no time was it suggested that the > copyright lay with Gladys.
> In the case of The Sound of Music, it's not as if the idea is > original; the intellectual property is surely in what you make of it. > I suspect you would have made something marvellous.....
> As a long time and fervent Pratchettian, I'd hate to think that we may > have lost a masterpiece because of an inadvertent blurt from a newbie. > I hope you allow the offending post to drop into the background noise > of the web, and not allow it to interfere with your plans for future > books.
> Regards
> Doug Urquhart
I just wanted to second that last post.
2 points:
-Wouldn't it be enough for the offending poster to post another message here renouncing copyright of the idea & undertaking not to sue for plagiarism? Or would that not be legally binding?
-Since the Discworld is Pterry's intellectual property, can anyone sue Pterry for "plagiarising" a *specifically Discworld* idea? After all, it's not a question here of someone suggesting a very general plot, suitable for any fictional setting, which could be taken and reworked into a Discworld idea - it's a question of someone suggesting a plot idea set *specifically* in the Discworld universe with Discworld characters. Since that universe and those characters all belong to Pterry, surely no-one else can legally lay claim to an idea they come up with which uses his characters and setting?
I'm not a lawyer, though (swords don't glow blue in my presence or anything) so I'd be interested to hear from anyone who knows better on the subject.
> -Wouldn't it be enough for the offending poster to post another message > here renouncing copyright of the idea & undertaking not to sue for > plagiarism? Or would that not be legally binding?
Even if it were, reputation could still be lost. 10 years from now, the talk about how "Terry pinched the idea from..." would be circulating. I mean, they might even dig that up in the "Century of Pratchett" 3D HoloViewer programme on the Terran Non-reality-show Network in their Reminiscences From The Old Planet stream...
Legality might be definable, even judged upon, either in a court or by an proclomation by the Great And Powerful Mekon, but the possibility of straying into something that can't be controlled in anything less than an Orwellian vision (and, even then, not really) is the dangerous bit.
Best safe than sorry, IMHO. I just hope I don't inadvertently fall into that trap (which is why I generally stick to meaningless banter, unless that's just me in general...)
In article <bheh7e$l56$1$8300d...@news.demon.co.uk>, James Eagle <jeea...@yahoo.com> writes
>-Wouldn't it be enough for the offending poster to post another message >here renouncing copyright of the idea & undertaking not to sue for >plagiarism? Or would that not be legally binding?
>-Since the Discworld is Pterry's intellectual property, can anyone sue >Pterry for "plagiarising" a *specifically Discworld* idea?
Look, let's not go too far here.
What this is about is not perfectly understandable fannish speculation, or any real legal charge of plagiarism.
It's about perceptions, and what gets remembered. As an aside, those interested might like to Google on Marion Zimmer Bradley and the infamous fanfic case and see if they can work out who did what to who. As someone said, there are about five 'definitive' accounts of a spat which *apparently* led to the publishers refusing to publish a book because of the fear of legal action, and they don't agree.
No, no one can sue me, and I don't think that anyone in this thread would contemplate it for a moment. But you don't have to be particularly imaginative so see how a problem might occur in a few years' time.
We actually have had the overture to something like this already -- it was stopped in its tracks because the writer had no concept of how far ahead of publication date a book, in solid, signed -for form, is with the publisher. An accusation that no one in fandom would take seriously for a moment *would* nevertheless get publicity from journalists that don't know, and don't care, how fandom works.
And consider my rep. 'He steals blatantly' was a phrase used in The Independent in a friendly article about me (an enemy wouldn't have dared). What was *meant* was he 'borrows gloriously from our cultural heritage', which was a phrase used about JKR some months earlier. Both journalists meant exactly the same thing, but the choice of words was instructive and is now on file.
Then stir into this mess the huge growth in fanfic in general, which has got to the point where commercial publication without the permission of the 'source' author has been contemplated, and you end up with ...a mess.
Supposing someone had posted, a few years before Maskerade:'Hey, imagine the witches getting involved in a Phantom of the Opera plot -- I'd bet Granny Weatherwax would sort out the Phantom!' No, nothing there that's anything but innocent...but recalled after Maskerade it might take a different spin. You *know* I'm right.
However, look on the bright side. The very existence of this thread means that I probably *can* go ahead:-)
> In article <bheh7e$l56$1$8300d...@news.demon.co.uk>, James Eagle > <jeea...@yahoo.com> writes > >-Wouldn't it be enough for the offending poster to post another message > >here renouncing copyright of the idea & undertaking not to sue for > >plagiarism? Or would that not be legally binding?
> >-Since the Discworld is Pterry's intellectual property, can anyone sue > >Pterry for "plagiarising" a *specifically Discworld* idea?
> Look, let's not go too far here.
> What this is about is not perfectly understandable fannish speculation, > or any real legal charge of plagiarism.
> It's about perceptions, and what gets remembered. As an aside, those > interested might like to Google on Marion Zimmer Bradley and the > infamous fanfic case and see if they can work out who did what to who. > As someone said, there are about five 'definitive' accounts of a spat > which *apparently* led to the publishers refusing to publish a book > because of the fear of legal action, and they don't agree.
> No, no one can sue me, and I don't think that anyone in this thread > would contemplate it for a moment. But you don't have to be > particularly imaginative so see how a problem might occur in a few > years' time.
> We actually have had the overture to something like this already -- it > was stopped in its tracks because the writer had no concept of how far > ahead of publication date a book, in solid, signed -for form, is with > the publisher. > An accusation that no one in fandom would take seriously for a moment > *would* nevertheless get publicity from journalists that don't know, > and don't care, how fandom works.
> And consider my rep. 'He steals blatantly' was a phrase used in The > Independent in a friendly article about me (an enemy wouldn't have > dared). What was *meant* was he 'borrows gloriously from our cultural > heritage', which was a phrase used about JKR some months earlier. Both > journalists meant exactly the same thing, but the choice of words was > instructive and is now on file.
> Then stir into this mess the huge growth in fanfic in general, which has > got to the point where commercial publication without the permission of > the 'source' author has been contemplated, and you end up with ...a > mess.
> Supposing someone had posted, a few years before Maskerade:'Hey, imagine > the witches getting involved in a Phantom of the Opera plot -- I'd bet > Granny Weatherwax would sort out the Phantom!' No, nothing there that's > anything but innocent...but recalled after Maskerade it might take a > different spin. You *know* I'm right.
> However, look on the bright side. The very existence of this thread > means that I probably *can* go ahead:-)
> Thanks for continuing to post on this newsgroup, despite the unfortunate > (And probably unintentional) mishap(s) that seem to (have) occur(ed).
I apologise again for all the grief that I have been partially responsible for. (I did not know what I was doing) Terry, keep up the awesome work. Who am I to tell the master how to do his work? I hope that this doesn't turn you away from the group.
One thing I treasure as special about AFP is that we actually get to interact with our beloved author as well as eachother. I hope I have not been a cause for his leaving.
> > > Was thinking that it might make a good DW book, and they have to escape > > > from some power crazed Uberwald warewolves at the end...
> > In case its not blindingly obvious, or you haven't seen the film, the > > werewolves representing the Nazis
> > Sophie
> Doesn't sound like a bad idea...... > Susan Sto Helit is who i would choose to. :) > But there might be an opening the witches.... > Could you work in the witches as the other 'sisters'? > Magrat Garlik could be Maria too, BUT that wouldn't be nearly as fun as > Susan. > Maybe get Gaspode in as the family "pet"
> Just crazy thoughts..... > Bear
Dear All:
I've been following this thread with the same certain horrid facination as one watchs a slow motion car crash - you know it's going to end in tears, someone's going to get hurt and its too late afterwards to say 'sorry'.
The worst possible outcome would be for Pterry to say, roughly, 'It's just too risky to keep reading/posting, I'll have to stop.' This would be a monumental disaster, I can't tell you the thrill I get when opening the news group to see that Pterry's posted something, no matter how light or trivial. He is always polite (often under severe provocation) invariably instructive and frequently illuminating. And THAT'S what you are all risking by not complying with Pterry's perfectly reasonable, politely expressed, request not to speculate. We nearly lost him some time ago and over EXACTLY the same issue.
For Gods' sake have you already forgotton JKR's battle with that lunatic over 'muggle'?? God know's what it cost in legal fees, lost productive creative time and sheer bloody aggravation. Do any of us want to even risk our favourite author being concieveably exposed to the faintest chance of that?
Having said that, I would have thought that if anyone objects to The Sound of So Helit it should have been the late Maria Von Trapp rather than some pimply mouth breathing newbie.
In article <C4M_a.194$a%4.8...@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>, Square Bear <square_b...@hotmail.com> writes
>I apologise again for all the grief that I have been partially responsible >for. (I did not know what I was doing)
Don't worry about it. As I've said, I think the way the thread has developed will solve the problem. Maybe history will recall it as :'Someone started speculating on a plot TP was working on and he went harlan' :-)
It's unfortunate we should have to act like this, but events suggest that for an author rich enough to be a target a little paranoia is probably not enough.
in article rwz$8UAq20O$E...@unseen.demon.co.uk, Terry Pratchett at tpratch...@unseen.demon.co.uk wrote on 14/08/2003 1:51 AM:
> In article <bheh7e$l56$1$8300d...@news.demon.co.uk>, James Eagle > <jeea...@yahoo.com> writes >> -Wouldn't it be enough for the offending poster to post another message >> here renouncing copyright of the idea & undertaking not to sue for >> plagiarism? Or would that not be legally binding?
<snip>
> However, look on the bright side. The very existence of this thread > means that I probably *can* go ahead:-)
That's good news. This thread is archived for ever on Google, and possibly elsewhere, so there can be no possibility of anyone doubting the originality of your work if you do go ahead. It sounds like something that would be fun to write [1] and even more fun to read.
> In article <C4M_a.194$a%4.8...@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>, Square Bear > <square_b...@hotmail.com> writes > >I apologise again for all the grief that I have been partially responsible > >for. (I did not know what I was doing)
> Don't worry about it. As I've said, I think the way the thread has > developed will solve the problem. Maybe history will recall it as > :'Someone started speculating on a plot TP was working on and he went > harlan' :-)
> It's unfortunate we should have to act like this, but events suggest > that for an author rich enough to be a target a little paranoia is > probably not enough.
> -- > Terry Pratchett
Thanks Pterry!!!!! (exclamation marks are deliberate to show the level of my insane happiness) You have made a long time fan very happy! I look forward to reading Monstrous Regiment! Huge although exteremeley humbled fan Square Bear
> > > > Was thinking that it might make a good DW book, and they have to escape > > > > from some power crazed Uberwald warewolves at the end...
> > > In case its not blindingly obvious, or you haven't seen the film, the > > > werewolves representing the Nazis
> > > Sophie
> > Doesn't sound like a bad idea...... > > Susan Sto Helit is who i would choose to. :) > > But there might be an opening the witches.... > > Could you work in the witches as the other 'sisters'? > > Magrat Garlik could be Maria too, BUT that wouldn't be nearly as fun as > > Susan. > > Maybe get Gaspode in as the family "pet"
> > Just crazy thoughts..... > > Bear
> Dear All:
> I've been following this thread with the same certain horrid facination > as one watchs a slow motion car crash - you know it's going to end in > tears, someone's going to get hurt and its too late afterwards to say > 'sorry'.
> The worst possible outcome would be for Pterry to say, roughly, 'It's > just too risky to keep reading/posting, I'll have to stop.' This would > be a monumental disaster, I can't tell you the thrill I get when > opening the news group to see that Pterry's posted something, no matter > how light or trivial. He is always polite (often under severe > provocation) invariably instructive and frequently illuminating. And > THAT'S what you are all risking by not complying with Pterry's > perfectly reasonable, politely expressed, request not to speculate. We > nearly lost him some time ago and over EXACTLY the same issue.
> For Gods' sake have you already forgotton JKR's battle with that > lunatic over 'muggle'?? God know's what it cost in legal fees, lost > productive creative time and sheer bloody aggravation. Do any of us > want to even risk our favourite author being concieveably exposed to > the faintest chance of that?
> Having said that, I would have thought that if anyone objects to The > Sound of So Helit it should have been the late Maria Von Trapp rather > than some pimply mouth breathing newbie.
> Love, light and happiness
> Douglas
Long ago I was a pimply, mouth breathing newbie, I actually am a little like Susan Sto Helit myself, being a Teacher ( I realised early in life that I had no talent whatsoever) (although my lessons don't usually involve first hand experience) I apoligise AGAIN to Perry and the group for my part in this fiasco
I don't need a seeing eye dog, I need a thinking brain dog! Square bear
> In article <C4M_a.194$a%4.8...@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>, Square Bear > <square_b...@hotmail.com> writes >> I apologise again for all the grief that I have been partially >> responsible >> for. (I did not know what I was doing) > Don't worry about it. As I've said, I think the way the thread has > developed will solve the problem. Maybe history will recall it as > :'Someone started speculating on a plot TP was working on and he went > harlan' :-) > It's unfortunate we should have to act like this, but events suggest that > for an author rich enough to be a target a little paranoia is probably > not enough. > -- Terry Pratchett
I've been away for a few days and only just come back to find out what a monumental disaster I caused.
I am really sorry for any upset I have caused anyone, particularly Terry... I would never ever mean to do anything like that intentionally, and in future will read the faq all the way through before posting and more inportantly will not post at 5:30Am whilst very drunk again if i can possibly help it... after seeing the fallout effects a night of watching nostalgic films whilst drinking copious amounts of beer, i'm going T-total.
Yours VERY APPOLOGETICALLY Sopihe
p.s. To the lovelly person who emailed me to check that i was alright after the on-slaught... thanks so much it was really kind and thoughtful of you Soph xx
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