It does not cover the correct procedure for removing formations using a lump hammer when there is open passage visible beyond!
Regarding the bit about checking gloves for mud, dirt and holes; rest assured that my gloves pass on all three counts. It does not tell us whether it is OK to bleed in the cave through the holes though, when we touch that razor sharp Matienzo limestone.
It also does not explain the ethics of using drills and other heavy
engineering techniques to remove parts of the cave including any
formations that may be in the way.
I think in the spirit of international exchange of information, Juan
should send the link to the video of John D's stal removal technique
to the author, along with an instruction to take some Valium prior to
watching it!
Phil
On 25 Oct, 20:46, Footleg <drfoot...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> It does not cover the correct procedure for removing formations using
> a lump hammer when there is open passage visible beyond!
> Regarding the bit about checking gloves for mud, dirt and holes; rest
> assured that my gloves pass on all three counts. It does not tell us
> whether it is OK to bleed in the cave through the holes though, when
> we touch that razor sharp Matienzo limestone.
I'm sure most of what the Americans say is completely over the top and
not practical for the way exploration is done in Matienzo. But there
are ideas that could be used to generally "raise the standards", so
that in the future things will be done better than they used to. In
the past I've certainly been guilty of dumping carbide in the caves,
and fortunately that isn't an issue any more. But this year, thanks to
the good men of Pringle Tours, we've been privileged to explore a
beautiful and absolutely pristine cave. Maybe we should think about
what state it's in after just one year of exploration and whether
anything could have been done differently.
It does seem unfortunate that we ended up probably removing half a tacklebag full of rubbish at the end of the summer from a cave which had been pristine only a few weeks before. This included sweet rappers, newspaper, wire etc.
Seems easy enough to me, dont let the Yanks in caves?
No seriously, levitation, whilst smoking into a plastic bag and peeing into a nappy. Thats all thats needed. Until we develop the first no point worrying about the rest. Oh, and make sure you drop the children off at the pool just before the trip, preferably not just outside the entrance.
On the concept of pristine caves. Caves are natural sewers (thats Gods waste disposal system to any watching Americans) and every form of debris known to man and some that isnt has washed through them from the surface over the years. Most of it has disappeared. Occasionally were bound to step in something smelly that hasnt, especially in Matienzo. Cant be helped. (Mr Sherrington please take note and try not to leave any more Dingle deposits lying in entrance passages).
For example, there are lots of bear scratching in Matienzo, but Ive never noticed any flakes of bear skin or discarded bear hair lying about, have any of you? No, because its disappeared. The cave ate it.
Obviously it makes sense not to leave stuff lying around in fossil passages. Unless of course you fancy setting a challenge to a thirty fourth century caver, trying to work out why the early dweller used multiple lengths of plastic pipe underground to live in when houses had been invented for years?
And Pete, shame on you, why didnt you wash the carbide out in the streamways like the rest of us did, thus getting rid of any nasty waterborne parasites at the same time, and forsing the fish out to the surface where its easier to catch them?
I notice they didnt mention the idea of not painting huge great arrows on the wall for the benefit of the confused, perhaps the ones that tried this technique havent found the way out yet and werent able to contribute?
Tony
From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alasdair Neill
Sent: 27 October 2008 09:11
To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
_____
It does seem unfortunate that we ended up probably removing half a tacklebag full of rubbish at the end of the summer from a cave which had been pristine only a few weeks before. This included sweet rappers, newspaper, wire etc.
I guess one way to destroy microbes left by dirty filthy organics (cavers) would be to ensure the consumption of large amounts of alcohol the night before a trip, the alcohol released as fumes into the cave atmosphere may wipe out many of the germs....
Genuinely sorry to hear all about the rubbish though Ali, that is a concern that could easily be avoided....
From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Brocklebank
Sent: 27 October 2008 09:55
To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Cave softly ...
Seems easy enough to me, dont let the Yanks in caves?
No seriously, levitation, whilst smoking into a plastic bag and peeing into a nappy. Thats all thats needed. Until we develop the first no point worrying about the rest. Oh, and make sure you drop the children off at the pool just before the trip, preferably not just outside the entrance.
On the concept of pristine caves. Caves are natural sewers (thats Gods waste disposal system to any watching Americans) and every form of debris known to man and some that isnt has washed through them from the surface over the years. Most of it has disappeared. Occasionally were bound to step in something smelly that hasnt, especially in Matienzo. Cant be helped. (Mr Sherrington please take note and try not to leave any more Dingle deposits lying in entrance passages).
For example, there are lots of bear scratching in Matienzo, but Ive never noticed any flakes of bear skin or discarded bear hair lying about, have any of you? No, because its disappeared. The cave ate it.
Obviously it makes sense not to leave stuff lying around in fossil passages. Unless of course you fancy setting a challenge to a thirty fourth century caver, trying to work out why the early dweller used multiple lengths of plastic pipe underground to live in when houses had been invented for years?
And Pete, shame on you, why didnt you wash the carbide out in the streamways like the rest of us did, thus getting rid of any nasty waterborne parasites at the same time, and forsing the fish out to the surface where its easier to catch them?
I notice they didnt mention the idea of not painting huge great arrows on the wall for the benefit of the confused, perhaps the ones that tried this technique havent found the way out yet and werent able to contribute?
Tony
From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alasdair Neill
Sent: 27 October 2008 09:11
To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
_____
It does seem unfortunate that we ended up probably removing half a tacklebag full of rubbish at the end of the summer from a cave which had been pristine only a few weeks before. This included sweet rappers, newspaper, wire etc.
> I guess one way to destroy microbes left by dirty filthy organics (cavers) would be to ensure the consumption of large amounts of alcohol the night before a trip, the alcohol released as fumes into the cave atmosphere may wipe out many of the germs....
> Genuinely sorry to hear all about the rubbish though Ali, that is a concern that could easily be avoided....
> From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Brocklebank
> Sent: 27 October 2008 09:55
> To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Cave softly ...
> Seems easy enough to me, dont let the Yanks in caves?
> No seriously, levitation, whilst smoking into a plastic bag and peeing into a nappy. Thats all thats needed. Until we develop the first no point worrying about the rest. Oh, and make sure you drop the children off at the pool just before the trip, preferably not just outside the entrance.
> On the concept of pristine caves. Caves are natural sewers (thats Gods waste disposal system to any watching Americans) and every form of debris known to man and some that isnt has washed through them from the surface over the years. Most of it has disappeared. Occasionally were bound to step in something smelly that hasnt, especially in Matienzo. Cant be helped. (Mr Sherrington please take note and try not to leave any more Dingle deposits lying in entrance passages).
> For example, there are lots of bear scratching in Matienzo, but Ive never noticed any flakes of bear skin or discarded bear hair lying about, have any of you? No, because its disappeared. The cave ate it.
> Obviously it makes sense not to leave stuff lying around in fossil passages. Unless of course you fancy setting a challenge to a thirty fourth century caver, trying to work out why the early dweller used multiple lengths of plastic pipe underground to live in when houses had been invented for years?
> And Pete, shame on you, why didnt you wash the carbide out in the streamways like the rest of us did, thus getting rid of any nasty waterborne parasites at the same time, and forsing the fish out to the surface where its easier to catch them?
> I notice they didnt mention the idea of not painting huge great arrows on the wall for the benefit of the confused, perhaps the ones that tried this technique havent found the way out yet and werent able to contribute?
> Tony
> From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alasdair Neill
> Sent: 27 October 2008 09:11
> To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
> _____
> It does seem unfortunate that we ended up probably removing half a tacklebag full of rubbish at the end of the summer from a cave which had been pristine only a few weeks before. This included sweet rappers, newspaper, wire etc.
I hope you are not proposing to damage the extensive deposits of 20th century broken glass and animal remains in the entrance area of said cave!. These pristine deposits should be preserved exactly as we found them when the cave was first discovered. I shall take care to remove all pieces of glass ware from my knee pads after each trip and attempt to replace the fragments in their original positions in the entrance crawl.
> Hmmm page 266. > Could be lifted from some EU council directive..
> To show willing we have however installed a dustbin in EU blue (as per > the directive) in site 2988. > See underground photo A5.
> Said bin is suspended in mid air which minimised the desired impact.
> Just got to fill in these forms now so we can get it emptied and the > contents, and bin recycled.
> On 27 Oct, 10:31, "Carmen Smith" <nucl...@omicbomb1.fsnet.co.uk> > wrote: >> What would Pablo say....
>> Bloody ecologists!!!!
>> I guess one way to destroy microbes left by dirty filthy organics (cavers) would be to ensure the consumption of large amounts of alcohol the night before a trip, the alcohol released as fumes into the cave atmosphere may wipe out many of the germs....
>> Genuinely sorry to hear all about the rubbish though Ali, that is a concern that could easily be avoided....
>> From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Brocklebank >> Sent: 27 October 2008 09:55 >> To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Cave softly ...
>> Seems easy enough to me, don't let the Yanks in caves?
>> No seriously, levitation, whilst smoking into a plastic bag and peeing into a nappy. That's all that's needed. Until we develop the first no point worrying about the rest. Oh, and make sure you drop the children off at the pool just before the trip, preferably not just outside the entrance.
>> On the concept of pristine caves. Caves are natural sewers (that's "God's waste disposal system" to any watching Americans) and every form of debris known to man and some that isn't has washed through them from the surface over the years. Most of it has disappeared. Occasionally we're bound to step in something smelly that hasn't, especially in Matienzo. Can't be helped. (Mr Sherrington please take note and try not to leave any more Dingle deposits lying in entrance passages).
>> For example, there are lots of bear scratching in Matienzo, but I've never noticed any flakes of bear skin or discarded bear hair lying about, have any of you? No, because it's disappeared. The cave ate it.
>> Obviously it makes sense not to leave stuff lying around in fossil passages. Unless of course you fancy setting a challenge to a thirty fourth century caver, trying to work out why the early dweller used multiple lengths of plastic pipe underground to live in when houses had been invented for years?
>> And Pete, shame on you, why didn't you wash the carbide out in the streamways like the rest of us did, thus getting rid of any nasty waterborne parasites at the same time, and forsing the fish out to the surface where it's easier to catch them?
>> I notice they didn't mention the idea of not painting huge great arrows on the wall for the benefit of the confused, perhaps the ones that tried this technique haven't found the way out yet and weren't able to contribute?
>> Tony
>> From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alasdair Neill >> Sent: 27 October 2008 09:11 >> To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
>> _____
>> It does seem unfortunate that we ended up probably removing half a tacklebag full of rubbish at the end of the summer from a cave which had been pristine only a few weeks before. This included sweet rappers, newspaper, wire etc.
Pete and I went into Cubio Reņada (site 48) today (27th Oct) to look
at the effect of more than 40 years of caving on the system. We tried
to "think American" but with mud up to knees and water up to waists in
the entrance passages this proved rather difficult. We went as far as
Sanatogen Passage and spent some time looking around the Blood Alley
area. We were fairly happy about the damage to the cave walls and
floors - most traffic seems to have kept to the same trails and damage
to formation appeared minimal - there was some mud (and candle wax!?)
on some of the red stal but this should be quite easily cleaned off.
What was very disappointing was the damage caused to Blood Alley. This
cleft is about 80m long and generally a 2m wide, mainly inactive
streamway in black limestone and "popcorn" - a passage in the floor
very close to the main trade route - which had a red / orange floor
with orange crystals in pools and red calcite flows on the walls. The
floor is now coated with mud and the pools are lined with the same
brown deposit.
The dismal scene is not anyone's "fault" - it just happens to be very
easy to miss the route out when coming from Azpilicueta and wander
down into Blood Alley. Any mud on boots and clothes forms a film on
the floor and gets washed further down and into the pools. The
evidence is shown here at http://www.matienzo.org.uk/ugpics/0048-2008a.htm where a photo taken by Frank Addis in 1977 can be compared with what
we saw today.
The "good news" is that it may be possible to clean up the whole alley
with medium pressure water (from backpacks), pumps and sponges, and a
lot of cavers with changes of clothes and goodwill. After a cleanup,
the Alley could be taped off and cavers directed to the trade route
and a "viewing platform" a few metres aboved the cleft where the pools
and floor could be appreciated.
If a laissez faire attitude prevails in Cow Pot we're going to end up
with muddy / ruined formations before the cave is visited by Spanish
groups, including Hornedo locals. We should be taping these routes,
columns and other cave resources.
Juan
This sort of cave conservation ethic is certainly an important and wide
ranging subject. I've seen some of the finest cave passage ever in
America; I've also witnessed some of the worse deliberate desecration of
caves possible. A lot of American caves have a "nerd trap" - a
difficult feature (squeeze, climb, pitch, etc.) beyond which the cave is
pristine; before it, it has suffered damage that could almost be
described as criminal.
In Mendip garden water sprayers have been used, very successfully, to
clean what once were (and are now again) pure white formations in GB and
Charterhouse. In Charterhouse epoxy glue has been used to successfully
rebuild broken columns.
The caves administered by Charterhouse Caving Company have a
conservation policy, part of which is a regular photo shoot; shots from
defined points showing the same views this enables a record of any
changes to be seen over time overkill for Matienzo, perhaps, but maybe
worthwhile in some of the tourist areas.
Looking at the pictures from Blood Alley, sat here, the damage is much
worse than I've ever "noticed" when I've been there. Certainly "we" are
able to come up with the resources to put some of this right - even if
that were to involve small portable aqua-vacs, containers of clean
water, and garden sprays.
In Cow Pot we ought to make some serious efforts to "repair" not just
"John's" stal, but others too. I know that I'm not completely free of
blame, so I'll be the first to offer to help.
Perhaps we could all offer 1 day of next years Matienzo caving towards
conservation ?
It looks like there would be work for "1 day conservation volunteers".
And I'm not sure regular photo shoots would be an overkill, not in the
days of digital photography. Incidentally, about the big red stal in
Juan's photo A2, has anyone got a photo of it taken from that side
(the muddiest side now)? So far I've located 4 or 5 pics, but all from
the other side.
Pete
I'd be happy enough to help out for a day or two but I must admit I
intensely dislike littering caves with tape, I prefer the look of damaged
formations to red and white plastic everywhere. (and it doesn't work very
well anyway as it gets damaged too easily)
Could we not adopt a policy of building low walls round better formations,
when possible, which at least fit in with the surroundings and provide semi
permanent protection and create "natural" viewing spots?
On Behalf Of Juan
Sent: 27 October 2008 23:20
To: Matienzo Caves
Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
Pete and I went into Cubio Reņada (site 48) today (27th Oct) to look
at the effect of more than 40 years of caving on the system. We tried
to "think American" but with mud up to knees and water up to waists in
the entrance passages this proved rather difficult. We went as far as
Sanatogen Passage and spent some time looking around the Blood Alley
area. We were fairly happy about the damage to the cave walls and
floors - most traffic seems to have kept to the same trails and damage
to formation appeared minimal - there was some mud (and candle wax!?)
on some of the red stal but this should be quite easily cleaned off.
What was very disappointing was the damage caused to Blood Alley. This
cleft is about 80m long and generally a 2m wide, mainly inactive
streamway in black limestone and "popcorn" - a passage in the floor
very close to the main trade route - which had a red / orange floor
with orange crystals in pools and red calcite flows on the walls. The
floor is now coated with mud and the pools are lined with the same
brown deposit.
The dismal scene is not anyone's "fault" - it just happens to be very
easy to miss the route out when coming from Azpilicueta and wander
down into Blood Alley. Any mud on boots and clothes forms a film on
the floor and gets washed further down and into the pools. The
evidence is shown here at http://www.matienzo.org.uk/ugpics/0048-2008a.htm where a photo taken by Frank Addis in 1977 can be compared with what
we saw today.
The "good news" is that it may be possible to clean up the whole alley
with medium pressure water (from backpacks), pumps and sponges, and a
lot of cavers with changes of clothes and goodwill. After a cleanup,
the Alley could be taped off and cavers directed to the trade route
and a "viewing platform" a few metres aboved the cleft where the pools
and floor could be appreciated.
If a laissez faire attitude prevails in Cow Pot we're going to end up
with muddy / ruined formations before the cave is visited by Spanish
groups, including Hornedo locals. We should be taping these routes,
columns and other cave resources.
Juan
I'm with Tony on this one. One of the things I enjoy about caving in
Matienzo is the fact that the caves are completely natural, without
plastic tape spoiling the look of every pretty corner link most caves
in the UK now. It is a real privilege to visit caves in such an
unspoiled state, and I agree we should take steps to protect areas
from increased traffic when we discover them. But please can we find a
way to do it that is sympathetic to the places we are trying to
preserve?
Footleg
2008/10/28 Tony Brocklebank <t...@laptopbits.co.uk>:
> I'd be happy enough to help out for a day or two but I must admit I
> intensely dislike littering caves with tape, I prefer the look of damaged
> formations to red and white plastic everywhere. (and it doesn't work very
> well anyway as it gets damaged too easily)
> Could we not adopt a policy of building low walls round better formations,
> when possible, which at least fit in with the surroundings and provide semi
> permanent protection and create "natural" viewing spots?
> Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Juan
> Sent: 27 October 2008 23:20
> To: Matienzo Caves
> Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
> Pete and I went into Cubio Reņada (site 48) today (27th Oct) to look
> at the effect of more than 40 years of caving on the system. We tried
> to "think American" but with mud up to knees and water up to waists in
> the entrance passages this proved rather difficult. We went as far as
> Sanatogen Passage and spent some time looking around the Blood Alley
> area. We were fairly happy about the damage to the cave walls and
> floors - most traffic seems to have kept to the same trails and damage
> to formation appeared minimal - there was some mud (and candle wax!?)
> on some of the red stal but this should be quite easily cleaned off.
> What was very disappointing was the damage caused to Blood Alley. This
> cleft is about 80m long and generally a 2m wide, mainly inactive
> streamway in black limestone and "popcorn" - a passage in the floor
> very close to the main trade route - which had a red / orange floor
> with orange crystals in pools and red calcite flows on the walls. The
> floor is now coated with mud and the pools are lined with the same
> brown deposit.
> The dismal scene is not anyone's "fault" - it just happens to be very
> easy to miss the route out when coming from Azpilicueta and wander
> down into Blood Alley. Any mud on boots and clothes forms a film on
> the floor and gets washed further down and into the pools. The
> evidence is shown here at http://www.matienzo.org.uk/ugpics/0048-2008a.htm > where a photo taken by Frank Addis in 1977 can be compared with what
> we saw today.
> The "good news" is that it may be possible to clean up the whole alley
> with medium pressure water (from backpacks), pumps and sponges, and a
> lot of cavers with changes of clothes and goodwill. After a cleanup,
> the Alley could be taped off and cavers directed to the trade route
> and a "viewing platform" a few metres aboved the cleft where the pools
> and floor could be appreciated.
> If a laissez faire attitude prevails in Cow Pot we're going to end up
> with muddy / ruined formations before the cave is visited by Spanish
> groups, including Hornedo locals. We should be taping these routes,
> columns and other cave resources.
> Juan
The blue bin looks lovely but I'm not familiar with the directive.
Could you confirm whether this is suitable for all waste, or is it intended simply for recycled material, and if so how do you suggest we separate bottles, cans and cardboard? Will you be making separate provision for non recyclable waste?
I understand that under WEEE directives which are finally in force batteries and electrical items must also be disposed of separately and correctly, will you be arranging this or do we make our own provision?
To avoid confusion will it be emptied weekly or fortnightly?
Good news from the Environment Agency on waste disposal, the following is lifted word for word from their web site:
"Householders are not banned from disposing of WEEE in their bin"
On Behalf Of digscaves Sent: 27 October 2008 17:51 To: Matienzo Caves Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
Hmmm page 266. Could be lifted from some EU council directive..
To show willing we have however installed a dustbin in EU blue (as per the directive) in site 2988. See underground photo A5.
Said bin is suspended in mid air which minimised the desired impact.
Just got to fill in these forms now so we can get it emptied and the contents, and bin recycled.
On 27 Oct, 10:31, "Carmen Smith" <nucl...@omicbomb1.fsnet.co.uk> wrote: > What would Pablo say....
> Bloody ecologists!!!!
> I guess one way to destroy microbes left by dirty filthy organics (cavers) would be to ensure the consumption of large amounts of alcohol the night before a trip, the alcohol released as fumes into the cave atmosphere may wipe out many of the germs....
> Genuinely sorry to hear all about the rubbish though Ali, that is a concern that could easily be avoided....
> From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Brocklebank > Sent: 27 October 2008 09:55 > To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: Cave softly ...
> Seems easy enough to me, don't let the Yanks in caves?
> No seriously, levitation, whilst smoking into a plastic bag and peeing into a nappy. That's all that's needed. Until we develop the first no point worrying about the rest. Oh, and make sure you drop the children off at the pool just before the trip, preferably not just outside the entrance.
> On the concept of pristine caves. Caves are natural sewers (that's "God's waste disposal system" to any watching Americans) and every form of debris known to man and some that isn't has washed through them from the surface over the years. Most of it has disappeared. Occasionally we're bound to step in something smelly that hasn't, especially in Matienzo. Can't be helped. (Mr Sherrington please take note and try not to leave any more Dingle deposits lying in entrance passages).
> For example, there are lots of bear scratching in Matienzo, but I've never noticed any flakes of bear skin or discarded bear hair lying about, have any of you? No, because it's disappeared. The cave ate it.
> Obviously it makes sense not to leave stuff lying around in fossil passages. Unless of course you fancy setting a challenge to a thirty fourth century caver, trying to work out why the early dweller used multiple lengths of plastic pipe underground to live in when houses had been invented for years?
> And Pete, shame on you, why didn't you wash the carbide out in the streamways like the rest of us did, thus getting rid of any nasty waterborne parasites at the same time, and forsing the fish out to the surface where it's easier to catch them?
> I notice they didn't mention the idea of not painting huge great arrows on the wall for the benefit of the confused, perhaps the ones that tried this technique haven't found the way out yet and weren't able to contribute?
> Tony
> From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alasdair Neill > Sent: 27 October 2008 09:11 > To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
> _____
> It does seem unfortunate that we ended up probably removing half a tacklebag full of rubbish at the end of the summer from a cave which had been pristine only a few weeks before. This included sweet rappers, newspaper, wire etc.
> The blue bin looks lovely but I'm not familiar with the directive.
> Could you confirm whether this is suitable for all waste, or is it intended > simply for recycled material, and if so how do you suggest we separate > bottles, cans and cardboard? Will you be making separate provision for non > recyclable waste?
> I understand that under WEEE directives which are finally in force batteries > and electrical items must also be disposed of separately and correctly, will > you be arranging this or do we make our own provision?
> To avoid confusion will it be emptied weekly or fortnightly?
> Good news from the Environment Agency on waste disposal, the following is > lifted word for word from their web site:
> "Householders are not banned from disposing of WEEE in their bin"
> So need for separate toilet facilities!
> Tony
> -----Original Message----- > From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] > On Behalf Of digscaves > Sent: 27 October 2008 17:51 > To: Matienzo Caves > Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
> Hmmm page 266. > Could be lifted from some EU council directive..
> To show willing we have however installed a dustbin in EU blue (as per > the directive) in site 2988. > See underground photo A5.
> Said bin is suspended in mid air which minimised the desired impact.
> Just got to fill in these forms now so we can get it emptied and the > contents, and bin recycled.
> On 27 Oct, 10:31, "Carmen Smith" <nucl...@omicbomb1.fsnet.co.uk> > wrote: >> What would Pablo say....
>> Bloody ecologists!!!!
>> I guess one way to destroy microbes left by dirty filthy organics (cavers) > would be to ensure the consumption of large amounts of alcohol the night > before a trip, the alcohol released as fumes into the cave atmosphere may > wipe out many of the germs....
>> Genuinely sorry to hear all about the rubbish though Ali, that is a > concern that could easily be avoided....
>> From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com > [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Brocklebank >> Sent: 27 October 2008 09:55 >> To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com >> Subject: RE: Cave softly ...
>> Seems easy enough to me, don't let the Yanks in caves?
>> No seriously, levitation, whilst smoking into a plastic bag and peeing > into a nappy. That's all that's needed. Until we develop the first no > point worrying about the rest. Oh, and make sure you drop the children off > at the pool just before the trip, preferably not just outside the entrance.
>> On the concept of pristine caves. Caves are natural sewers (that's "God's > waste disposal system" to any watching Americans) and every form of debris > known to man and some that isn't has washed through them from the surface > over the years. Most of it has disappeared. Occasionally we're bound to > step in something smelly that hasn't, especially in Matienzo. Can't be > helped. (Mr Sherrington please take note and try not to leave any more > Dingle deposits lying in entrance passages).
>> For example, there are lots of bear scratching in Matienzo, but I've never > noticed any flakes of bear skin or discarded bear hair lying about, have any > of you? No, because it's disappeared. The cave ate it.
>> Obviously it makes sense not to leave stuff lying around in fossil > passages. Unless of course you fancy setting a challenge to a thirty fourth > century caver, trying to work out why the early dweller used multiple > lengths of plastic pipe underground to live in when houses had been invented > for years?
>> And Pete, shame on you, why didn't you wash the carbide out in the > streamways like the rest of us did, thus getting rid of any nasty waterborne > parasites at the same time, and forsing the fish out to the surface where > it's easier to catch them?
>> I notice they didn't mention the idea of not painting huge great arrows on > the wall for the benefit of the confused, perhaps the ones that tried this > technique haven't found the way out yet and weren't able to contribute?
>> Tony
>> From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com > [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alasdair Neill >> Sent: 27 October 2008 09:11 >> To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
>> _____
>> It does seem unfortunate that we ended up probably removing half a > tacklebag full of rubbish at the end of the summer from a cave which had > been pristine only a few weeks before. This included sweet rappers, > newspaper, wire etc.
I believe the next collection of this bin is due at Easter.
On our surface explorations its staggering how much material is being
dumped into caves or shakeholes around Matienzo.
Old tyres seem to be one of the more popular items, but there's far
worse.
Last time we were out we came across and avoided, fortunately, medical
waste!
The jungle is sharp enough without having to contend with this.
Regarding underground, the original explorers might be best placed to
work out routes.
Best to keep the numbers down in new stuff ? maybe? until some/any
conservation measures are in place.
Would help avoid trashing passages that can be bypassed if suitably
marked.
Bound to be controversial though...
Chris
On 28 Oct, 10:23, "Tony Brocklebank" <t...@laptopbits.co.uk> wrote:
> The blue bin looks lovely but I'm not familiar with the directive.
> Could you confirm whether this is suitable for all waste, or is it intended
> simply for recycled material, and if so how do you suggest we separate
> bottles, cans and cardboard? Will you be making separate provision for non
> recyclable waste?
> I understand that under WEEE directives which are finally in force batteries
> and electrical items must also be disposed of separately and correctly, will
> you be arranging this or do we make our own provision?
> To avoid confusion will it be emptied weekly or fortnightly?
> Good news from the Environment Agency on waste disposal, the following is
> lifted word for word from their web site:
> "Householders are not banned from disposing of WEEE in their bin"
> On Behalf Of digscaves
> Sent: 27 October 2008 17:51
> To: Matienzo Caves
> Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
> Hmmm page 266.
> Could be lifted from some EU council directive..
> To show willing we have however installed a dustbin in EU blue (as per
> the directive) in site 2988.
> See underground photo A5.
> Said bin is suspended in mid air which minimised the desired impact.
> Just got to fill in these forms now so we can get it emptied and the
> contents, and bin recycled.
> On 27 Oct, 10:31, "Carmen Smith" <nucl...@omicbomb1.fsnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > What would Pablo say....
> > Bloody ecologists!!!!
> > I guess one way to destroy microbes left by dirty filthy organics (cavers)
> would be to ensure the consumption of large amounts of alcohol the night
> before a trip, the alcohol released as fumes into the cave atmosphere may
> wipe out many of the germs....
> > Genuinely sorry to hear all about the rubbish though Ali, that is a
> concern that could easily be avoided....
> > From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Brocklebank
> > Sent: 27 October 2008 09:55
> > To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: RE: Cave softly ...
> > Seems easy enough to me, don't let the Yanks in caves?
> > No seriously, levitation, whilst smoking into a plastic bag and peeing
> into a nappy. That's all that's needed. Until we develop the first no
> point worrying about the rest. Oh, and make sure you drop the children off
> at the pool just before the trip, preferably not just outside the entrance.
> > On the concept of pristine caves. Caves are natural sewers (that's "God's
> waste disposal system" to any watching Americans) and every form of debris
> known to man and some that isn't has washed through them from the surface
> over the years. Most of it has disappeared. Occasionally we're bound to
> step in something smelly that hasn't, especially in Matienzo. Can't be
> helped. (Mr Sherrington please take note and try not to leave any more
> Dingle deposits lying in entrance passages).
> > For example, there are lots of bear scratching in Matienzo, but I've never
> noticed any flakes of bear skin or discarded bear hair lying about, have any
> of you? No, because it's disappeared. The cave ate it.
> > Obviously it makes sense not to leave stuff lying around in fossil
> passages. Unless of course you fancy setting a challenge to a thirty fourth
> century caver, trying to work out why the early dweller used multiple
> lengths of plastic pipe underground to live in when houses had been invented
> for years?
> > And Pete, shame on you, why didn't you wash the carbide out in the
> streamways like the rest of us did, thus getting rid of any nasty waterborne
> parasites at the same time, and forsing the fish out to the surface where
> it's easier to catch them?
> > I notice they didn't mention the idea of not painting huge great arrows on
> the wall for the benefit of the confused, perhaps the ones that tried this
> technique haven't found the way out yet and weren't able to contribute?
> > Tony
> > From: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alasdair Neill
> > Sent: 27 October 2008 09:11
> > To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
> > _____
> > It does seem unfortunate that we ended up probably removing half a
> tacklebag full of rubbish at the end of the summer from a cave which had
> been pristine only a few weeks before. This included sweet rappers,
> newspaper, wire etc.
I think plastic tape (in small amounts and in a few selected places on
trade routes) has definite advantages:
1: Easy to lay out.
2: Easy to remove for photos and reinstate afterwards.
3: Easy to remove if some better method is suggested!
Walls (in Reņada at least) would look just as "out of place" as tape,
i.e. some would have to be built on calcite and would easily be kicked
or knocked over,. possibly onto the very resource we're trying to
protect
There is no suggestion from anyone (I hope) that "every pretty corner"
will be taped off, just the suggestion that "at risk" formations
should be protected.
Juan
Some tape to keep people from wandering off the beaten track (e.g. as is across the start of Photographers Passage in Cow Pot) is a sensible approach. I would not like to see two lines of tape down the middle of every passage with a nice mud or crystal floor, or around the base of every stal in the passage. I hope that we can be responsible enough cavers in Matienzo to know that you don't touch stals or walk across flowstone floors unless it is unavoidable, and then stick to the path of least damage or follow existing footprints.
The difficulties come when people want to just go and see the pretties. Caves like Los Hoyos spring to mind, which became a popular 'Sunday afternoon trip' as word spread around the expedition group of the pretties and interesting Bones down there. I was one of those who went to see because it looked cool from other peoples photos. A cave like that inevitably suffers when it gets high traffic no matter how careful people are. But you can't start controlling access to places without losing the superb all inclusiveness which is one of the things that makes Matienzo caving expeditions so great to be a part of.
Juan, Attached are a number of photos in Renada, I took some but some will be copies of Franks. May be interesting to compare with what you found yesterday.
I feel it would need a bit more than a low pressure spray on Blood Alley but feel the technology is available! Cheers, Lank
> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:20:00 -0700> Subject: Re: Cave softly ...> From: juancor...@matienzo.org.uk> To: MatienzoCaves@googlegroups.com> > > Pete and I went into Cubio Reņada (site 48) today (27th Oct) to look> at the effect of more than 40 years of caving on the system. We tried> to "think American" but with mud up to knees and water up to waists in> the entrance passages this proved rather difficult. We went as far as> Sanatogen Passage and spent some time looking around the Blood Alley> area. We were fairly happy about the damage to the cave walls and> floors - most traffic seems to have kept to the same trails and damage> to formation appeared minimal - there was some mud (and candle wax!?)> on some of the red stal but this should be quite easily cleaned off.> > What was very disappointing was the damage caused to Blood Alley. This> cleft is about 80m long and generally a 2m wide, mainly inactive> streamway in black limestone and "popcorn" - a passage in the floor> very close to the main trade route - which had a red / orange floor> with orange crystals in pools and red calcite flows on the walls. The> floor is now coated with mud and the pools are lined with the same> brown deposit.> The dismal scene is not anyone's "fault" - it just happens to be very> easy to miss the route out when coming from Azpilicueta and wander> down into Blood Alley. Any mud on boots and clothes forms a film on> the floor and gets washed further down and into the pools. The> evidence is shown here at http://www.matienzo.org.uk/ugpics/0048-2008a.htm> where a photo taken by Frank Addis in 1977 can be compared with what> we saw today.> > The "good news" is that it may be possible to clean up the whole alley> with medium pressure water (from backpacks), pumps and sponges, and a> lot of cavers with changes of clothes and goodwill. After a cleanup,> the Alley could be taped off and cavers directed to the trade route> and a "viewing platform" a few metres aboved the cleft where the pools> and floor could be appreciated.> > If a laissez faire attitude prevails in Cow Pot we're going to end up> with muddy / ruined formations before the cave is visited by Spanish> groups, including Hornedo locals. We should be taping these routes,> columns and other cave resources.> Juan> > > _________________________________________________________________
The only mud I can see on any of these slides is on Tony Waltham's
suit and boots and his particularly disgusting left hand! There also
possibly lumps of gunge dropping off him onto the floor!
It's a pity that scanning old slides can't bring out the richness of
the original cave colours, eg 1-30-2008_008 where the crystals are
more orange; but Lank's slides again give food for thought.
Underground resources in Spain belong to the State and we get our
permission to explore underground ultimately from the Cantabrian
government. (This was explained to me by Pete a couple of days ago!).
The land we wander over to dig or get to cave entrances is generally
privately owned (often by farmers).
It will be defined somewhere where the interface actually is :
farmer / state ownership. This brings up interesting issues, eg How
far do you have to dig before we are under state permission rather
than farmers' permission? Also farmers may be perfectly entitled to
dump old tyres into shakeholes, and may provide a facility for the
farms for miles around, but if a tyre falls down a shaft then this
could legally be a no-no. Of course, if they are set fire to, the
poisoness chemicals produced will drain down into the groundwater and
eventually drinking water. (This happened when tyres overs the mine
workings at Whitworth, Lancs were set fire to and the liquid residues
produced drained into a nearby reservoir).
There are a lot of tyres in depressions over the Cobadal / Wild Mare /
Aguanaz areas. (See http://www.matienzo.org/descrip/2782.htm).
The solution to all the "medical waste" and tyres noted by Chris is
education, cleaning out the current mess and providing the means to
dispose of future rubbish. But this may have to be "enforced" under
EU rules as suggested by Ian in the Conservation thread.
Juan
I take your point about not wanting people kicking over walls to damage formations, but I still think a wall would be far better protecting say a stal boss such as the one in your photo than tape. I think they look far better than tape at least?
I suspect if we rely on the EU to solve the problem most of us will be long gone before they do.
One thing we haven't mentioned is signs, if I read a fairly discreet sign on the way into a cave (in Spanish and English) asking me to take care, explaining the cave was looked after by us, asking me to report any problems, bring out litter etc I would take note, OK not everyone will but it could help.
Would we not be better agreeing a series of practical measures?
Why don't we set up a Matienzo Adopt a Cave Scheme, and encourage individual cavers or small groups who regularly visit Matienzo to adopt a cave each?
This could involve a few simple enough measures:
1. Visit the entrance occasionally armed with a bin bag or three and where possible tidy up the entrance 2. Same underground, collecting any rubbish and bringing it out 3. Where needed arrange a few volunteers to clean up formations 4. Take some measures to try and protect better formations, taping, walling, signs or whatever 5. Where possible open up dialogue with farmers to try and stop them dumping, perhaps try and bribe them with a few photos from caves on their land, copies of surveys etc, even a quick trip, try and instil a sense of pride etc etc
The aim of this would simply be to provide a bit of focus and encourage a little more conservation than we are currently involved in. It might be handy to keep a list of who looks after what cave on the wall in the bar and on the web site for example.
I suspect on an ongoing basis it'll work a lot better if it is formalised a little, otherwise we'll all rush out there at Easter, help out on a couple of clean up trips and then it'll probably all be forgotten for another five years.
On Behalf Of Juan Sent: 29 October 2008 10:32 To: Matienzo Caves Subject: Re: Cave softly ...
Underground resources in Spain belong to the State and we get our permission to explore underground ultimately from the Cantabrian government. (This was explained to me by Pete a couple of days ago!). The land we wander over to dig or get to cave entrances is generally privately owned (often by farmers). It will be defined somewhere where the interface actually is : farmer / state ownership. This brings up interesting issues, eg How far do you have to dig before we are under state permission rather than farmers' permission? Also farmers may be perfectly entitled to dump old tyres into shakeholes, and may provide a facility for the farms for miles around, but if a tyre falls down a shaft then this could legally be a no-no. Of course, if they are set fire to, the poisoness chemicals produced will drain down into the groundwater and eventually drinking water. (This happened when tyres overs the mine workings at Whitworth, Lancs were set fire to and the liquid residues produced drained into a nearby reservoir). There are a lot of tyres in depressions over the Cobadal / Wild Mare / Aguanaz areas. (See http://www.matienzo.org/descrip/2782.htm). The solution to all the "medical waste" and tyres noted by Chris is education, cleaning out the current mess and providing the means to dispose of future rubbish. But this may have to be "enforced" under EU rules as suggested by Ian in the Conservation thread. Juan
Dear All, The dire situation of Blood Alley was noted by me a couple of years ago (it was pristine the year before) and I think that it was caused by a single party (not of the Expedition) doing the through trip from Coteron and not knowing the route. You have to deliberately climb down into the gully and cross the crystal pools. It's really our fault, being remiss in not taping off the access to the gully and providing a large marker for the way out (There are plenty of those in the system already). We really should identify places of high scenic value or extreme fragility at an early stage in exploration, even though this may distract from exploration fever. I was dismayed that in Vacca, in a lot of the mud floored passages, all the floor of a wide passage had been trampled. I may be in a minority but I do think that tape markers can help in keeping people to the side of passages where a minimum of traffic damage can occur and preserve remaining areas of pristine, if boring, sediment formations. I don't need to elaborate on my opinion of people leaving rubbish, human waste and carbide in caves. Actually mitigating, or hiding, damage in well known caves is more difficult and will probably involve a variety of methods, many already suggested, but all depends on an ethos of conservation and consideration being widely adopted by the expedition. Let's grow up! act responsibly, and not let the Matienzo caves go the way that Easter Grotto, the Painters Palette or the stal columns in Mongo Gill have been destroyed in the Dales. Regards Terry
>Pete and I went into Cubio Reņada (site 48) today (27th Oct) to look >at the effect of more than 40 years of caving on the system. We tried >to "think American" but with mud up to knees and water up to waists in >the entrance passages this proved rather difficult. We went as far as >Sanatogen Passage and spent some time looking around the Blood Alley >area. We were fairly happy about the damage to the cave walls and >floors - most traffic seems to have kept to the same trails and damage >to formation appeared minimal - there was some mud (and candle wax!?) >on some of the red stal but this should be quite easily cleaned off.
>What was very disappointing was the damage caused to Blood Alley. This >cleft is about 80m long and generally a 2m wide, mainly inactive >streamway in black limestone and "popcorn" - a passage in the floor >very close to the main trade route - which had a red / orange floor >with orange crystals in pools and red calcite flows on the walls. The >floor is now coated with mud and the pools are lined with the same >brown deposit. >The dismal scene is not anyone's "fault" - it just happens to be very >easy to miss the route out when coming from Azpilicueta and wander >down into Blood Alley. Any mud on boots and clothes forms a film on >the floor and gets washed further down and into the pools. The >evidence is shown here at http://www.matienzo.org.uk/ugpics/0048-2008a.htm >where a photo taken by Frank Addis in 1977 can be compared with what >we saw today.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Dr Terence M. Whitaker, 4, Crowtrees, Low Bentham, Via LANCASTER LA2 7EE UK Tel +44 (0) 15242 62269 Mob O2 +44 07895025359 Mob Orange +44 07891856724 Skype contact name "terry-whitaker" + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Does anyone want to do a talk on Matienzo to the Manchester Geological Association on Saturday November 8th? I am away that day and can't do it. This is part of a themed meeting that they are holding ''Karst Landscapes and Processes''. I have spoken to the organizer and they are more than happy for the presentation to be an illustrated talk about the caves and exploration rather than a more scientifically based lecture. I have copied the email from them below.
I am the Indoor Meetings Secretary of the Manchester Geological Association, which is the local geological society for the Manchester area.
We are having a meeting on the afternoon of Saturday November 8th, between 1.00pm and 5.00pm, entitled "Karst Landscapes and Processes", with talks on caves and karst.
I noticed on the web your notes on the Matienzo caves, and wondered if you could do a talk about that. I am sure that almost anything you could say on the caves or karst of the area would be of interest.
Perhaps you could let me know if you are available or not. If you are, could you let me know the title of your talk and provide me with an abstract. If not, perhaps you would know the name of someone who might.
I look forward to hearing from you. My address details and some general notes on our meetings are below.
Jim Spencer
Lecture Theatre
----------------------
The Manchester Geological Association holds its meetings in the University of Manchester. This meeting will be in the Samuel Alexander Building (the Arts Building). I can post or e-mail you a copy of the Campus Guide for Manchester University, which contains a map and directions, should you require one.
The theatre will seat a maximum of ca. 120 people, and is equipped with :-
* Powerpoint projector with a PC - presentations can be down-loaded from CD or memory-stick, or you can connect up your own lap-top.
* Laser pointer
* Blackboards and pointer
It would help if you let me know your requirements beforehand.
The lecture slots can be a maximum of an hour long, so allowing for a fifty-five minute talk with five minutes for questions would be about right, if you would like to take questions.You can do less if you want.
Audience
-------------
The audience usually consists of both MGA members and non-members. The members are largely amateur geologists with a few professional geologists. Many of the amateur members have studied some geology, and in some cases have degrees or higher degrees in the subject.
Non-members are also welcome to attend MGA meetings, and consist of interested members of the public or other neighbouring geological societies.
The skill level of the audience therefore varies between relative beginner to fairly knowlegeable, presenting something of a problem for speakers. A level of presentation assuming first- to second-year undergraduate knowledge would be about right.
It is unlikely anyone in the audience will know as much about your subject as you do.
Publicity
------------
Lectures are publicised in the regular MGA newsletters, and also on the MGA web site (www.mangeolassoc.org.uk).
It would be helpful to have a few paragraphs on your talk to include in the newsletter. An example of the notes we produce for a meeting is attached
Of course, you are welcome to write a summary of greater length if you have the time.
Expenses
--------------
The MGA will re-imburse you for out-of-pocket expenses. The Treasurer will make himself known to you during the event and settle up with you. From the auditors' point of view it would help the Treasurer if you have receipts.
The MGA would be happy to get you a meal before or after the lecture if that helps with your timetable.
Jim
Jim Spencer
APMS Service Delivery Manager Security Solutions & Services Division
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